Why Christianity? discussion

Why HELL? Is that loving or fair to human nature?

Of course: is the doctrine of hell probably understood as shown in the Bible? Mostly no, than to Dante's Inferno and myths over the centuries. Lots to discuss here --- if anyone cares.

The reason men think Hell is unfair is because they really don't think anything they would have done would warrant such a severe penalty. They don't see themselves as criminals before God, and they don't understand that the very bent of their heart is an affront to God's holiness.
Since they don't see the problem, they fail to see the solution.

Rod - because man had no say in the creation of either heaven or hell he can hardly dictate the conditions for entrance. When we die, we either moulder in the grave, get reincarnated (cow?), or experience an afterlife. The religion I chose as true promotes the afterlife, so what's it based upon? God's Wrath or lack thereof seems to be the determining factor as to whether you spend eternity with Him or elsewhere (which is universally described as highly unpleasant). If it was a guessing game as to what triggers God's Wrath then we'd be in limbo, but it's not. The scales of celestial Justice are clearly delineated so anyone can calculate the direction of their postmortem elevator ride.

Justice is a challenging thing.

Heaven as we understand and use it commonly is God's domain and since God cannot cohabit with sin, everything has to go through the purifying furnace. The nuggets that pass through are pure and worthy. The sledge that gets caught in the filter is perpetual fuel. Heaven and Hell are facts of "nature". God's nature. Totally objective and fair.

Agreed, Eric. What I don't agree with is some church's assertion that somehow Jesus "covers" our sin so God can't see it. This is anthropomorphism at its worst - we don't worship deities who play hide and seek games. As long as we are doing our mortal bit we will sin, at the very least in the 7 deadly variety. God recognized this after Adam and Eve's disobedience. If the Father can't be around sin, then somehow we must be cleansed before we enter the room in our mansion. This is the purification filter you alluded to, I believe.

But the angels sinned in heaven? THEN caste out. A war even.

Rod - I think mere mortals have enough on their plate just resisting the temptation thrown at us by the losers in the "Clash of the Titans." Worrying over the palace intrigue surrounding the eventual supremacy of the Trinity seems a bridge too far for dancing hunks of clay to pursue.

Not worrying: exploring.
These things tell us a fair bit about God's nature. (Which should be every Christian's favourite topic.)

I liked your "clash of the Titans" reference. Fun.

Since God is far above meagrely titans. The war must have been simply amusing to Him.

As an employer I never paid an unemployment claim for a simple reason. I had every employee read and sign our rules of employment. In them I stated clearly that I would never "fire" anyone and would supply hours as best determined to meet the needs of our company.
Those who worked well and got along got more hours. Anyone could get more hours by impressing management they were the best choice for working hard, taking care of customers, and getting along with other staff. If you didn't get "any" hours it was a temporary situation that could change and anytime based on "company needs" as expressed in the mutually signed document.
If a person did not come in, or showed up late (even once) and I, at my discretion, called someone in to take their place, it wasn't for the day... it was permanent. According to the manual, I would not stand in their way for personally determining it was in their best interest not to work for me. I always consistently recognized absence or extreme tardiness as a decision to not come to work for private reasons. I covered shifts with our best options based on the company's needs, period.
If someone stole anything (money, ink-pen, chair, supplies) I accepted it as an employee's personal choice to take an object rather than continuing to accept remuneration. I did not chase thieves and I did not expect merchandise to be returned. I bore the cost of the loss and legally deducted "documented acquisitions of goods and merchandise" from final paychecks. I never wavered. But I NEVER fired anyone! They made a conscious decision and I HONORED it.
The Texas Workforce Commission thanked me for my clear guidance on several occasions and told me I made their determination easy. They never took up for an employee who contested that document, even those who threatened to sue.
I learned that from John the Apostle. Employee's actions were always rewarded or acknowledged on the basis of their own discretion as evidenced by their behavior.
The angels who were expelled CHOSE to leave Heaven. Bad choice. Bad result. Wisdom is learning from another's mistake!

Did they choose? Or were their very natures changed to allow for rebellion? Are angels and demons Still choosing? Why not?

Well Rod, I guess the only real choice men (or angles) make is God, or not. To choose God is to choose life, light, truth, and all "God" entails and encompasses. And to choose self is the same as "not God". That choice bears consequence too. It truly is hell to make one wrong choice. Everything hinged on one choice continuously, perpetually, and eternally made.
I think rebellion is a choice. And you only get to make it once. Once you give up your seat at the table you can't get it back. Someone on the inside has to give up his chair for you. And he did. Oh wait, I guess we get one more last choice. What do you think?

Eric wrote: "As an employer I never paid an unemployment claim for a simple reason. I had every employee read and sign our rules of employment. In them I stated clearly that I would never "fire" anyone and woul..."

I understand your explanation, but I don't agree these angels choose to leave. I think that's a bit of a rationalization. Since there was no previous sin in heaven that we know of, can you state absolutely that they knew what they were doing? Obviously didn't measure the impact of what they did, but I could argue that they didn't know what the result would be; otherwise they would have chosen differently.

I accept your position and have NO IDEA what goes on the the realm of the Spirit. But I can tell you... I know what I'm doing, and I know what the result is, and I sin anyway. Could have chosen differently is the operative statement. Oh, wretched man that I am, who can save me from myself. Thank God for Jesus Christ whose Spirit resides in me according to my response to the Gospel. Now, like John the Baptist said, "I must decrease that he may increase." That's the hard part for me.

Eric wrote: "I accept your position and have NO IDEA what goes on the the realm of the Spirit. But I can tell you... I know what I'm doing, and I know what the result is, and I sin anyway. Could have chosen dif..."

I hear you. Been there ... done that.

I'm enjoying your book Tyrone. You don't shy away from any of these issues.

Personally, I have most of my answers: I'm just seeing how far you all Will philosophize these theological concerns.

Wait for it: the war in heaven has a fair bit to do with hell and free choice.

Rod wrote: "I'm enjoying your book Tyrone. You don't shy away from any of these issues.

Personally, I have most of my answers: I'm just seeing how far you all Will philosophize these theological concerns."

Thanks, Rod.

Rod wrote: "Wait for it: the war in heaven has a fair bit to do with hell and free choice."

No doubt. That's where it all started. Satan forgot whose home he was in.

Well said Tyrone.

Many people would not enjoy an eternity in Jesus home.
But in hell: sweet rebellious freedom for all time (not a lot to drink though)

Rod wrote: "Many people would not enjoy an eternity in Jesus home. But in hell: sweet rebellious freedom for all time (not a lot to drink though)"

Not my impression at all, Rod. Swimming at a resort is fun, but after about 2 weeks in the pool... Bowling is fun, but about the 400th consecutive game... Ice cream is yummy, but after about 60 bowls. I think it's gonna turn into "Get me outa here" pretty quick, only there's no way out.
I don't enjoy choirs, but I could get used to a really great one. Hope to see ya there. I'll save a seat.

I didn't say "fun". And I didn't say it would be nice. But I assume many will have a self righteous loathing of God's purity for all time.

The same ones who will blame God for their dilemma and say their banishment just proves they are right and He is neither good nor fair. Gotcha. I buy that. You are right, indeed. It seems some will never tire of that.

People in heaven will have a new nature...
But possibly those in hell will lose any small bit of faith and hope and fleshly nature they knew and loved.

Which leads to the assumed torture issue.

I'm reading a liberal Christian(?) book called "Hellrazed?".

Same crap and author who made the film "Hellbound?"
Fun, but equally as useless. Good test for Biblical discernment. Of course, if you like it: well, Damn!.

Rod - most Biblical references seem to imply intense heat as an accoutrement of hell. I like the sauna and whirlpool just fine, but not all day, every day!

Indeed.
I'm not sure Hell is hot. Spiritually hot maybe.

So the Pope has recently been quoted as saying that there is no hell... I think he may have really pissed off some cardinals with that...

Of course... that seems to be the way some are attempting to fill the pews these days... let's just tell people there is no hell.

Rob Bell comes to mind... and the guy who wrote The Shack; William Paul Young.

I actually enjoyed The Shack... anyone else read it? If there's any interest... we could start a new thread to discuss it.

I enjoyed The Shack as well. But I did not see it as a theologically significant contribution. It was more like a Saturday morning cartoon - fun to eat your Count Choculas with.

Rod wrote: "I enjoyed The Shack as well. But I did not see it as a theologically significant contribution. It was more like a Saturday morning cartoon - fun to eat your Count Choculas with."

Agreed.

I read the shack with a group of twenty men. We met every Monday night in the private room of a restaurant for live discussion. (still do). I did not care for the book, but enjoyed the movie immensely. I did find plenty of theological significance. I too felt much the same about Rob Bell's Love Wins. Though there is much I disagree with, I understand and appreciate both genuine perspectives and their attendant convictions. I enjoy out-of-the-box works, and I enjoy an orthodox institutional treatise. But my only anchor is the actual Holy Bible, and I only wish I could address it from a true original cultural/linguistic vantage point. There is one source of truth, and He is a person, much written about.

The thriving churches in my area recognize hell, but seem to think that everyone in attendance has, by virtue of just BEING THERE, recognized the divinity of Jesus and repented. It seems to be a given. They then get to the meat of the message - that God wants to give you an abundant life. This includes raises at work; big houses in toney neighborhoods; wonderful, obedient, adorably smart children, and a new ride every year. The catch is, you have to contribute mightily to the stadium-size new facility they're building.

Yep, many need to go way deeper. hopefully some will be shocked by the contents of scripture

My guess is that 90% of church goers don't know what's in their bible.... and if they did: they'd never go to church again.

Rod - I believe you're correct, but they can sure sing Hossanahs with impressive gusto!

Rod wrote: "My guess is that 90% of church goers don't know what's in their bible.... and if they did: they'd never go to church again."

I agree. Too many want to hear what sounds good and makes them feel good. They don't want to hear about God's wrath and what's coming.

Tyrone wrote: "Too many want to hear what sounds good and makes them feel good. They don't want to hear about God's wrath and what's coming."

That's just it... many "Christians" today are accepting this new teaching that there is no Hell. They don't believe God's wrath is coming.

Anybody read any interesting books on hell?

Rod wrote: "I enjoyed The Shack as well. But I did not see it as a theologically significant contribution. It was more like a Saturday morning cartoon - fun to eat your Count Choculas with."

Major 'Ditto' there!

Rod wrote: "Anybody read any interesting books on hell?"

On Fictional accounts...

CS Lewis' book 'The Great Divorce' is one book about hell I read. Very interesting read because it is basically about a field trip from perogatory to heaven, and how the visitors are unable to enjoy heavan. CS Lewis indicated that it was 'his' version and not necessarily biblical in any way. He also wrote 'Screwtape Letters', of an imagined conversation between an senior demon and an apprentice demon.

Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle did an update on Dante's 'Inferno' with their own version 'Inferno'. A Read I enjoyed very much.

As a Christian, the bible teaches that I should not guess or will that someone is in hell, but the Inferno books make their own projections, some very relevant and enjoyable to the imagination. As far as non-fiction reads on Hell, I have read one or two but I have no recommendations to that end of the spectrum.

I really should read The Great Divorce

Rod wrote: "I really should read The Great Divorce"

It's very good.