Homer's The Odyssey, translated by Emily Wilson discussion

This thread is for a wrap up of our group read of Emily Wilson's translation of Homer's The Odyssey.

I guess everyone fled to other books once the read was over. I did too, but Kris I want to thank you so much for having this group read. I don't do very many, but I'm so glad I did this one. You can see how glad in my short review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I perceive not fleeing but deferment of ending and lingering. For me it takes a lot to digest all the implications of the read. I am still on a quest of other readings to help me understand more of history, art, and mythology. And everywhere I turn in other lit, references to Homer that would usually pass over my head now rise up in sharp relief and implication.

As an example of the latter, the heroism and futility of WW1 near Troy at Gallipoli in a current read keeps connecting to Homer. And in a Turksih claasic I am reading a boy trapped under the tyranny of a rural beast and imprisonment of his lover takes to banditry and Robin Hood modes with lots of Homeric overtones.

Michael wrote: "I perceive not fleeing but deferment of ending and lingering. For me it takes a lot to digest all the implications of the read. I am still on a quest of other readings to help me understand more of..."

I've noticed the same thing, Michael. All sorts of things are connecting with Homer in my brain recently. It's great!

Yes, I’m noticing the same in large and small ways. In some way, this reading with the discussion seems to have opened up The Odyssey even more for me than previously, or perhaps, opened me up to The Odyssey.

It has been a surprise to me how major questions important for appreciating the two works of "Homer" are still unresolved. Right now my imbibing of The Odyssey would benefit from knowing if all was fantasy or if the glipses of many societies were historical at root.

Archaeology and art and records like the tablets in Linear B gives us blips of flourishing of Bronze Age Minoans and Myceneans but not much to portray life in the dark ages before and after. More widespread writing in this Aegean world on a larger scale on clay or Egyptian papyrus grew about the time of "Homer", or maybe the point where the oral versions of the epics were assembled in a complete form. Nothing to assure any kind of record of ancient human society. Features such as social bonding and ģovernance of social relations through complex rituals of gift giving and the pervasive institutionalized slavery could be projected into the songs based on society at Homer's time.

I like Adam Nicolson's affinity for the idea that the two epics are mostly a mythical rendering of an Age of Heroes set before Mycenaen age and that compared to the refined Trojans, with the only "city" in the books and residences qualified as palaces, the clans of the Achaens are the true barbarians.

Thucydides, writing a history of the Pelopponesean War in the 4th C BC inferred that Homer was writing about 800 BC on a period around 10 or 11 K BC. in the period of Mycenean growth. Thus the songs of the bard(s) behind the Iliad and Odyssey

He took the Trojan War as a matter of fact. He took it as a remarkable collaboration among tiny fiefdoms, all made possible by ship technology adapted from the Minoans and Phoenicians. Despite the reign of Schlieman in the idea he had found the real Troy and treasures of Agamemnon at Mycaenae, my readings say the portrayals in Homer could have been totally mythical. (There are many overlain cities of Troy, some with burn damage, but nothing that looks like a palace or proves a single war over a stolen woman).

I intend to do more reading, with Nicholson already on hand. Michael, your level of knowledge and Insight is the type that has fascinated me during this reading. You and others in the group have added a lot to my understanding and enjoyment. I realize that concrete answers are missing but these ideas and possibilities make the reading more and more real and human.

A couple of observations - reading this way has slowed me down to a pace I am not used to, and that has allowed many details to surface which I had completelty missed on my previous reading of the Odyssey.
I have also drifted off into reading the new novel Circe , which has prolonged the Odysseus experience, but also brought me into contact with many further tales, where later Roman writers have sought to round off the story and add tales about Penelope, Telemarchus and Telegonus (an aledged son between Circe and Odysseus).
This has allowed the story to float beyond the bounds of the Odyssey, which is great when you really don't want it to finish.

I, too, have really enjoyed and learned so much from the discussion. It's interesting to hear other people's reading because it opens my eyes to new ways of looking at the work. I have read the Odyssey a number of times, but each time I get something new out of it. I don't think it can ever be exhausted.

I particularly appreciate the book recommendations I received from this group. If it hadn't been for your recommendations, I would have missed out on reading
War Music: An Account of Homer's Iliad
An Odyssey: A Father, a Son, and an Epic
Omeros
The War That Killed Achilles: The True Story of Homer's Iliad and the Trojan War
Circe.

Other than Circe, which I found disappointing, I loved all the other books and found them to be immeasurably enriching. So thank you for the recommendations. And thanks to all for a wonderful discussion.

I can't thank you all enough for the discussion and your insights. A huge thanks to Kris for bringing this together.

I look forward to trying some of the many related books, and coming back to these threads as I continue mulling over all of the ideas shared. I agree, this is a never-ending quest!

I finally wrote up my review.

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Well appreciated Tamara. Smart to focus on what Wilson is bringing new to the table, especially novel angles on portrayal of gender perspectives. Me, I need a lot more digesting before I can settle into an outlook on the book as a whole.

Your deep knowledge of the gods and their meanings has been a great boon for us. In one book I read (The World of Odysseus) , the author notes how the gods involved with the play of supposedly heroic actions of humanity neglect the much broader attachment of human masses to gods of fertility, crop success, drink, and dance. Despite lots of action from the most power hungry gods, the humans are the only ones that really engage us because love and home, honor and mortality, are at constant risk that immortals eill never experience.

Am I alone to struggle so much over whether to take the Homeric works as mostly a fantasy and outlet of imagination. In which case, I need to take the various versions of society with caution as refecting any real tribes and peoples. Aside from Nestor's realm at Pylos, the only society that really feels comfortable and admirable to me is that of the Phraecians. So ideal to welcoming strangers and congenial. But cut off like Shangrila and enchanted with godly influences making crops eithoit tendimg and boats that sail themselves, no model for Eden and s just society. Funny how the boats that allow war among these Aegean peoples are rarely discussed as means for trade. The only hint of a merchant class is the disrepute as a veritable pirate Odysseus was tagged for at one point. If there is little meat of history in the backgrounds for the tale, one has to squi t then to reach for something telling and eise about human nature. In particular I have long tried to get an angle on how much violence, war, and exertion of power is a core component of human nature or just cultural adaptations, and thus I wish Homer gave me a clearer window.

Michael wrote: "Well appreciated Tamara. Smart to focus on what Wilson is bringing new to the table, especially novel angles on portrayal of gender perspectives. Me, I need a lot more digesting before I can settle..."

First of all, thank you for your kind words. I'm not sure that I have any "deep knowledge of the gods," but I know I have learned so much from your contribution and the contribution of others in this group.

Michael wrote: "In particular I have long tried to get an angle on how much violence, war, and exertion of power is a core component of human nature or just cultural adaptations, and thus I wish Homer gave me a clearer window."

I think one important factor that should be included in your assessment is the role Athena plays. She is like the puppet master, manipulating people and events at every turn to achieve her desired outcome. She manipulates a pubescent girl with raging hormones and with thoughts of marriage to help Odysseus. She endows Telemachus with stature so he can impress Nestor. She beautifies Penelope in her sleep so she can lure the suitors into giving her gifts. She transforms Odysseus into a beggar and back again when it serves her purpose. She intentionally riles the suitors to be vicious toward Odysseus in his guise as a beggar so he is out for bloody vengeance. She deflects the arrows so he doesn’t get hurt. And the list goes on.

How much of the Odyssey is a reflection of human behavior and how much of it is due to the interference, manipulation, and navigation of Athena? That’s not an easy question to answer. I’m still debating it.

Great analysis, Tamara. Athena’s involvement appeared much more evident to me with this reading, perhaps because of all the instances being pointed out by fellow readers as we progressed. So I was not dependent on my recollection only. Odysseus becomes more a subject of the gods than a free standing hero when Athena’s role is factored in. I wonder what this says about the people of that time and what they thought or believed. Was life a series of manipulations by “higher” beings?

I think the syntheses of Jan-Maat, in discussion on Book 11, is worthy of repeating for a wrapping session. He pulled this quote from Hall's "Introducing the Ancient Greeks"

Odysseus is one of antiquity's few exclusively heterosexual heroes. This is part of the poems's anthropological dimension, which defines, among other things, the patriarchal social structure of archaic Greek communities by sending Odysseus into encounters with feminine power from which he invariably emerges with the upper hand. The Odyssey defines the male psychology that went with patriarchy by presenting various versions of the feminine - as desirable & nubile (Nausicaa), sexually predatory & matriarchal (Calypso, Circe), politically powerful (Arete, queen of the Phaeacians). domineering (the Laestrygonian king Antiphates has a huge daughter & a wife "the size of a mountain", monstrous & all devouring (Scylla, Charybdis), seductive & lethal (Sirens), but also as as faithful, domesticated, & maternal (Penelope). In the "real" world of Greek island peasant farming, a good wife like Penelope, protects her husband's interests & in his absence keeps her legs crossed for twenty years.

Then he appended these illuminating responses:
looking at that list above you can see that Odysseus out-wits and out survives far more female figures than male ones which is quite interesting while Penelope makes a powerful 'good wife' counterpoint to Helen, Clytemnestra or Medea, so being superior to female figures seems an important part of the story, but then that gives a certain rounded element to Odysseus - destroying the suitors is all brawn, muscleman stuff, dealing with the women requires a bit of brain, as well as copious help from the gods