Homer's The Odyssey, translated by Emily Wilson discussion

This thread is for a group discussion of Book 3 of Emily Wilson's translation of The Odyssey.

I was struck by the sacrifices to the gods: Nestor's first to Poseidon and then to Athena. Tough time to be a domestic animal, let me tell you.

Made me muse anew over the gods' suspiciously-human weaknesses: the over-the-top need for attention and loyalty and worship. It holds true in some of the big religions (thinking specifically of the Bible in parts). Also in politics (no further commentary needed).

These chapters seem mostly a means to get the backstory from the end of the siege of Troy. I can't help but wonder what it was that Athena really wanted Telemachus to learn from this visit with Nestor, as she could have told him directly about his father's status.

He learns nothing about the current fate of his father. But he does learn how much his appearance resembles his father (he earlier expressed doubts that Odysseus really was) and what it was about his father that was most admired:
Odysseus/your father, if you really are his son--well, no one dared to try to equal him/ in cleverness. That man was always best/at every kind of trick.

This brings up back to this the story of Odysseus in the first line of the book as a "complicated man." It seems he is being encouraged to emulate his father's craft to outsmart the suitors. No message to start working out in the gym and sword fighting lessons.

Maybe Telemachus is also meant to gain knowledge of how much Zeus needs outsmarting, as he is the cause of so much trouble with the victors at Troy getting home:
Zeus planned a bitter journey home for us/since some of us had neither sense nor morals.

He already knew about the potential lessons in Nestor's tale about Agamemnon and usurper Aegisthus and the revenge wreaked by Orestes. Upon the son's wishful thinking of godly help like Orestes had, the message he gets from Nestor is to curry the favor of Athena like Odysseus did. But I'm still struggling with her private comment to him:

"A god/can easily save anyone, at will,/no matter what the distance. I would rather/suffer immensely, but then get home safe, /than die on my return like Agamemnon,
...But death is universal. Even gods
cannot protect the people that they love,/when fate and cruel death catch up with them."

On the one hand, I get the impression that Odysseus suffering and delayed return is a fair trade compared to Agamemnon's safer trip and trust at return. On the other, I suspect Athena just wants to orchestrate a drama on the stage for the pleasure of seeing humans in godlike achievement.

Another lesson here relates to the wonderful discussions made on the thread for Wilson's introduction relates to analogies between Penelope and the sisters Clytemnestra and Helen. Where is noble action for the women and how much they should be responsible when fate, gods, and powerful men force unfortunate choices. On Clytemnestra's choice to submit to usurper Aegisthus:

For a while, she scorned/his foul suggestions, since her heart was good. .../But finally Fate forced the queen to yield.
...He led the woman back to his own house/by mutual desire ...

In the case of Helen, her seduction by Paris is forgiven and husband Meneleus did get home, despite being long delayed by Zeus and Zephyr's blowing him way off course, and with treasure to boot. Nestor seems to imply that his excursion away from home (unknown by him to be fomented by Athena) was putting his family at risk:

The moral is, you must not stay away/too long, dear boy, when those proud suitors lurk/inside your house.



Blame on Helen for

I also noted the use of "Greek" and "Greece" several times that does appear to be. alluding to the greater culture of their society, beyond the local groupings. The example I particularly like is lines 201-205.

Thoughtfully
Telemachus replied. "Your majesty,
King Nestor, yes. Orestes took revenge.
The Greeks will make him famous through the world
and into future times.

So many good observations on this thread already!

Ken -- I can imagine the Homeric epithets similes applied to a certain orange-hued leader.....

Michael -- your comment about women with actions constrained by men and gods alike reminds me of The Iliad's representation of Helen as first wanting to avoid Paris, but finally being forced by Aphrodite to join him in bed.

Also, as I think about Telemachus' journey, I agree that it in part provides an excellent vehicle to fill in the back story, and in part emphasizes the importance of Telemachus learning to practice trickery and strategy as his father did. Also, Nestor's and Menelaus's households provide a stark contrast to Odysseus's, where the suitors are making a mockery of hospitality. Maybe part of the lesson was showing Telemachus what a properly run patriarchal household looks like?

Sue -- excellent choice of quote!

Telemachus too is on a journey - he has to travel, to leave home, to learn about his long-absent father, from men who knew him themselves, and along the way to learn more about himself and 'to gain noble reputation for himself'.
Athena has taken on the role of giving him the confidence he needs to do this, and she takes initiatives that push him to act and to speak to Nestor, who is slightly ambiguous in his comments to T about him being O's son - 'Odysseus, your father - if you really are his son' was clever, unsurpassed in trickiness, flexible. Fortunate Agamenon, who had a son who avenged his murder.
Nestor says 'My dear boy,
I see that you are tall and strong. Be brave,
so you will be remembered' (l198-200)
in the next few pages it's clear that Telemachus is not going to achieve this standing without the help of the gods, that he hasn't yet realised that Athena is with him, and that although Nestor assures him that the gods are on his side at his young age (378) Telemachus still gives no indication that he is aware, or that he is grateful. It's Nestor who leads the sacrifices to Athena and his family men who carry out all the work, while Telemachus was being washed by Nestor's daughter.
Although he is referred to as like a son of Zeus at the beginning of Book 4, T. is looking pretty weak here.

I'm starting to feel bad for Telemachus. Athena revealing herself to these men is going to make it very difficult later on for him to be able to determine who among them is trustworthy.. With so much emphasis was placed on Telemachus' age, I had a chuckle at how quickly these (wise?) old men seemed willing to drop everything and sacrifice anything they could. Desperate for whatever crumbs of goodwill and favor the gods/goddesses leave behind.

I was most struck by the attitude of gratitude in this book. Nestor observes the ritual sacrifices to the Gods, and when he realizes that Athena has graced them with her presence, he goes all out. This is a man who is still grieving the loss of a son. He might curse the gods, but instead he honors them.

Wilson's plainspoken rendition of the Greek text lets us into the world view of a king whose every thought and act is done with an awareness of what he owes to the gods and, through them, to others (such as the son of his friend). Maybe I am especially receptive to this because I remember how I finally came out of my grieving, after the death of my father, by comforting others as a way of honoring his generous spirit.

That’s a wonderful observation, Lisa, thank you.

I agree. Lisa, that's a really excellent assessment of Nestor and his attitude towards the gods he has sacrificed to during his lifetime. In spite of his losses, he retains his beliefs and somehow holds on to his basic humanity and goodness.

Lisa wrote: "I was most struck by the attitude of gratitude in this book. Nestor observes the ritual sacrifices to the Gods, and when he realizes that Athena has graced them with her presence, he goes all out. ..."

What a beautiful comment, Lisa.

Judy Krueger
I agree that Telemachus' journey could be a device for Homer to fill in the story of Odysseus but at least in Book 3, it seems to be the first step in Tel's education about the father he never knew and his own place in the world. Nestor treats him as a father would, which must have been a new experience for Tel. The visit there showed him even more certainly the powers of Athena, who at least so far is being his champion/guardian.

janet wrote: "In Omeros, a fisherman named Philoctete bears his ancestors wounds from ankle chains during their enslavement until Ma Kilman makes him bathe with African herbs. He is healed of the ancient wound and so is the island...."

I haven't read Omeros, but from the description it also sounds a lot like the myth of the Fisher King--the basis of T.S. Eliot's poem, The Waste Land.

I have a copy of Omeros and I'm glad I haven't tried reading it yet. I think I will try to read it after reading The Odyssey to take advantage of this experience.

janet wrote: "Sue wrote: "I have a copy of Omeros and I'm glad I haven't tried reading it yet. I think I will try to read it after reading The Odyssey to take advantage of this experience."

Thanks for that conn..."

I've added Omeros to my books to read. It sounds interesting.

janet wrote: "I want to share a connection in this book to Derek Walcott's Omeros. On line 190 of the Odyssey, Nestor mentions that "Philoctetes came back home with glory." In Wilson's notes she explains that Philoctete had a wound that wouldn't heal. In Omeros, a fisherman named Philoctete bears his ancestors wounds from ankle chains during their enslavement until Ma Kilman makes him bathe with African herbs. He is healed of the ancient wound and so is the island. I thought people might enjoy seeing how Walcott rather beautifully employs the Odyssey to discuss slavery and colonialism. What is amazing about Wilson's introduction is how she brings up the questions of slavery and conquest in the Greek context of the time. She also mentions Omeros. "

Thanks so much, Janet! I'm also adding Omeros to my to-read list.

janet wrote: "Kris - what a great observation - "Maybe part of the lesson was showing Telemachus what a properly run patriarchal household looks like?" Nestor's kingdom feels so different from the conditions on ..."Janet, Lisa, I was also struck by how different Pylos was from Ithaca. Proper sacrifices in contrast to idle gluttony, Recognition of the gods, not skepticism. A stable family of six surviviving sons, five married. For Telemachus these seem important lessons.

janet wrote: "Sue wrote: "I have a copy of Omeros and I'm glad I haven't tried reading it yet. I think I will try to read it after reading The Odyssey to take advantage of this experience."

Thanks for that conn..."

Not at all. In fact, I think it will be helpful for me going into it, as long narrative poetry is never an easy read for me :-)

Such interesting comments about the lessons Telemachus can learn from Nestor’s court and family while he is in Pylos, adding to what he is learning in his search for knowledge of his father.

janet wrote: "In Omeros, a fisherman named Philoctete bears his ancestors wounds from ankle chains during their enslavement until Ma Kilman makes him bathe with African herbs...."

Janet, thank you for the recommendation. I finished reading Omeros and it blew my mind. It's a challenging read because of the different narrative threads. But after I finished it, I felt the same way I feel after reading the Iliad or Odyssey--as if I have just swallowed a thunderstorm.

I posted my review on the members' review thread.

Thanks, again, for the recommendation. This was a really, really good one!

Artistically this book and book 4 have fine opportunities for the storyteller to have expanded the tale into sagas about Orestes or Menelaus in Egypt

Lines 153-154, Nestor describing the departure of the victorious Greeks, including Odysseus and his men, from Troy:

'At dawn one group of us dragged down our ships to the sea, piled high with loot and women'

The women will be captured women from Troy and neighbouring cities sacked by the Greeks in the War. However cruel it seems to us, it was of course the accepted custom of war in those days, the morality of which nobody questioned, that the men on the losing side were normally all killed and the loser's wives, daughters and other women, even queens princesses and priestesses, became the absolute property of the winners, their slaves, considered part of the loot.

Presumably Odysseus and his men claim their 'share' of such women. Presumably therefore there will be Trojan women as slaves on Odysseus' ships for the remainde of the voyage and subsequent adventures, although they are never mentioned again?

If so, they are presumably all die of drowning or are killed, along with Odysseus' men, when most of the ships are attacked and destroyed by the Laestragonian giants in Book 10 and the last ship, Odysseus own, sinks in a storm in Book 12, but only his men's deaths are thought important enough for Homer to mention? (That is, unless slaves are abandoned or disposed of when the crew are running low on food and fearing starvation on Thrinacia, Book 12, where the crew are eventually driven by hunger to eat the sun gods cattle?)

Centuries later, the Ancient Greek playwright Euripides' plays 'The Trojan Women' and 'Hecuba', portray the elderly Trojan queen Hecuba becoming the personal slave of Odysseus after the fall of Troy, taken with him on his ship and anticipating a life of labour, so there may have been less high born women too.

Ditto the Cicones women from Ismarus near the beginning of Book 9, who are briefly mentioned as being captured by the Greeks when they sack that town soon after leaving Troy, but are likewise not mentioned again, unless we are to assume that they escape during the Greeks' panicked flight to their ships after the battle the next day.

Obviously, these women are not what the poem is about. For Homer to go into details about their subsequent fate would distract from the main subjects of the poem, such as Odysseus' homecoming.

That they are mentioned at all is probably because after successfully capturing and sacking a city in war or raiding the victors expect to end up with plenty of loot and newly enslaved female captives, indeed those were among the main incentives for warriors to take part in wars or raids. Accordingly, Homer composing for his time, may briefly mention the Greeks having acquired plunder and women when they sack Troy, and again when they sack Ismarus, because it would almost be strange not to do so, but then ignores or forgets about the women after that because they are not what the story is about, and the Odyssey is long enough anyway.

I have come across the argument that, even if there was once a Trojan War to give rise to the legends, we should treat the Iliad and Odyssey and the characters in them as purely fictional, and in a sense characters ignored by the text do not really exist. We cannot expect to know anything else about them, although we can make up own separate stories about them if we want to, as some people do with Greek Mythology.

However, I think sometimes things are not stated in fiction because they would be so obvious to the author's original audience as to be implied. As, in a 19th Century novel, if a character is described as wealthy and having a large house, I think it can be taken as implied that they do not have to do all the domestic tasks around the house by themselves, but will have servants, even if we are not actually told that. We can though take it that the servants will not be the main focus of the novel.

I think Homer and his audience would have assumed that these women will have been present on Odysseus' 12 ships for the voyage through the subsequent adventures, providing compulsory services to the Greek warriors as servants and concubines, and all eventually die on the way, as Odysseus is the only survivor of the journey.

However, slaves are generally not thought important enough to mention in Homer's poems unless they play some significant part in the plot, as Briseis in the Iliad when Achilles and Agamemnon argue over possession of her, and Eumeus, Eurycleia and Melantho in the later books of the Odyssey when Odysseus returns to Ithaca, and the fact that he is alone and outnumbered by the Suitors, and having to pose as a beggar, means that which side individual slaves take becomes unusually important.

And if it is right that there are Trojan women on Odysseus' ships during the voyage as slaves of their Greek conquerors, should we imagine their lives thereafter would have been uniformly terrible misery, or would some of them have started to form attachments to the Greek warriors and adapt to their situations?

We have to remember that it was a very different World then, and its values sometimes seem as strange or shocking to us as ours probably will to people in the distant future.

Tim, you have at least one listener! Keep posting please.
It’s five years since the main group read this together, and your comments on this chapter have led me back to read all the earlier ones including my own - dipping a toe into a treasured reading memory.
Your observations on the likelihood of there being enslaved women on board the ships startled me; it’s something that had never occurred to me.

I have also been reading your comments though I haven’t been reading any past posts. Wish I had more time. I did see that Wilson’s Iliad translation was completed.

Lyn, Sue, many thanks for replying. It is great to know there are people out there reading my posts.

I may take Lyn at her word and post a few more thoughts about other Books of the Odyssey, as it is good to have somewhere to record them where someone else might see them.

When I last checked Emily Wilson's Iliad translation was to be available for purchase in Hardback and Kindle around the end of this month, I assume Paperback to follow next year. I have not yet noticed any reviews in newspapers etc. However, I expect some will be appearing as Professor Wilson's Odyssey generated quite a lot of interest, even if she may have become a little bored that, she has said, every single interviewer asked her the same question about how important it was that she was the first ever female translator of the Odyssey into English, when I think she would have liked to be able to talk a bit more about the poem itself.

I hoped the subject of the possibility of female slaves seized in war being on Odysseus' ships was not too unpleasant a one to mention, given what it would probably be like to be one of those women. However, if we just assume that there were none, logically the question arises of why not, since it is generally believed that after Troy fell, its women became slaves of the Greeks.

The quarrels over Chryseis and Briseis that play a large part in the plot of the Iliad are based on the Greeks, even before that, capturing and enslaving local women in their raids on neighbouring towns that are allied to Troy.

Lyn, when you say 'Your observation on the likelihood of there being enslaved women on board the ships startled me, it's something that would never occur to me', if you had read Book 9, lines 41-43:

'...the Cicones at Ismarus. I sacked
the town and killed the men. We took their wives and shared their riches equally among us'

had you wondered what became of these 'wives' (actually now widows) thereafter?

And presumably you were aware that in other legends around the Trojan War it is generally accepted that after the fall of Troy, the Trojan women became the Greeks' slaves, but had just not tried to connect this with the story of Odysseus and his ships? As I did not, for a long time.

Personally, I knew they were taken but never thought about it in reference to the Odyssey itself and that boat as it’s never spoken of in the story. But then slaves never are part of the narrative in history really unless they revolt.