Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

Comin’ for March!.....

Stay with Me by Ayobami Adebayo

SHORTLISTED FOR THE 2017 BAILEYS WOMEN'S PRIZE FOR FICTION - - LONGLISTED FOR THE 2018 INTERNATIONAL DYLAN THOMAS PRIZE - - LONGLISTED FOR THE 2018 WELLCOME BOOK PRIZE - - NEW YORK TIMES 100 NOTABLE BOOKS OF 2017

Are you ready?

Bring it on!

Ready...

Ready

Ready

Background Materials, Interviews

To get us started, here are a brief synopsis, a few interviews with the author and links to a site that describes at a high-level some of the key political events in Nigeria's history during the '80s and '90s. Finally, at the end of this comment is a proposed schedule.

Stay with Me is Nigerian Ayobami Adebayo's debut novel. It takes place in Nigeria in the 1980s and 1990s. Its primary characters, Yejide and Akin, are a part of an Yoruba community with all of the traditions and expectations of women and marriage that come with it.

About Adebayo:
http://www.ayobamiadebayo.com/

Each of the following interviews include some spoilers, but I didn’t identify any information that isn’t presented on the inside dust jacket of the novel. (If you read one and disagree in terms of spoiler-y info, let me know.)

https://www.vogue.com/article/ayobami...
https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2...

Timeline of Major Events in Nigeria from 1980 - 2000.

From 1980 -1989
http://www.ngex.com/nigeria/keyevents...

from 1990 - 2000
http://www.ngex.com/nigeria/keyevents...

Proposed Schedule

SWM is 260 pages and 42 chapters, but many of the chapters are only a couple of pages long. I'd like to propose this schedule for our discussion:

Updated March 5

March 1 - 10: Parts 1 and 2, chapters 1 - 30 (through page 181)

March 11 - 17: Parts 3 and 4, chapters 31 to the end

March 18 - 31 ongoing discussion

I'm very much looking forward to reading this novel and learning from our discussion.

Any early thoughts for those of you who have begun to read it?

I was able to read this earlier this month. I think it will be a great book for discussion. In anticipation of this discussion, I took notes roughly by Parts. Carol, does your chapter breakdown follow the Parts (approximately)?

Monica wrote: "I was able to read this earlier this month. I think it will be a great book for discussion. In anticipation of this discussion, I took notes roughly by Parts. Carol, does your chapter breakdown fol..."

They didn't, but now do. Breaking it up to align with the Parts makes great sense. Thank you, Monica, for bringing that to my attention.

I have my book and will be starting it soon.

I read this book earlier this year but still have my book so can follow along with the discussion.

Cannot wait to hear what others have to say on some of the issues presented in this book.

I am halfway through this book and I anticipating the group discussions.

I finished Part One this morning and am looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.

Goin through this book like a hot knife through butter. Started yesterday, be finished tomorrow. Crazy good. Hopefull my power will come back on and I can contribute.

William wrote: "Goin through this book like a hot knife through butter. Started yesterday, be finished tomorrow. Crazy good. Hopefull my power will come back on and I can contribute."

Pretty much the same for me for the same reason, but at least I now have power. No electricity today due to heavy windstorms, so I finished it. A very interesting read. Looking forward to the discussion.

Okay I am done with the book. When will the discussions begin?

Now!

Comment on whatever you like. Please use spoiler tags for the next few days for events that occur after Part I. Perhaps we'll condense the schedule if the group wants to discuss the whole book more quickly.

It is a fast and wonderful read.

Did anyone else find that starting with Yejide with all of her bags packed changed how you viewed the subsequent flashback? I almost wished that SWM started in 1985 without that first chapter, because I might have viewed their relationship with more hope.

I was initially highly sympathetic to Yejide, partly because I bring my American sensibilities to the table. I want it to not be deemed her fault that she's not become pregnant. I want all of the relatives to butt out. I want Yejide to be able to navigate her marriage without the presence of a second wife. I want Akin to not have kept those 2 years of meetings with his mother and potential 2nd wives secret from Yejide.

But Yejide's culture accepts and encourages polygamy in this context, and accepts that producing a child is essential and a lack of reproduction as a critical problem to be solved by polygamy, and Yejide doesn't reject either of those traditional expectation on their face; she seems to just wish the facts were other than what they are, and that she wasn't in the position she's in. Surely, she suspected that those 2 years of meetings were occurring, and wouldn't have felt any better had Akin told her. Surely, she anticipated that time would be up at the time time was up. Then, when Yejide succumbs to the non-pregnancy pregnancy symptoms and attacks the doctors and others for not buying in, I was first embarrassed for her and subsequently became frustrated with her. But what alternatives did she have?

Your thoughts?

We’re starting the discussion now? I just started the book today.

We're starting the discussion of Part I.

I too have to admit that the first chapter set me up to understand that Yejide was going back to her husband that something happened to make her leave her husband and now something else has happened that has her returning.

So as I am reading I am trying to figure out what it was and wondering if I have guessed correctly.

But I decided to let the author tell the story the way she wants to tell it. I figured she must have her reasons.

But I agree that since I have finished the book, there so much I think differently about the first chapters. But Monday morning quarterback is always easier than being in the moment of the game.

Carol wrote: "Surely, she suspected that those 2 years of meetings were occurring, and wouldn't have felt any better had Akin told her. Surely, she anticipated that time would be up at the time time was up. "

Idk, I kind of read this like Yejide thought their marriage wasn't going to adhere to tradition. I thought it was a bit of a betrayal that Akin had acquiesced to his mother and didn't discuss it with her. The betrayal was that he was cajoled into adhering to the customs, all the while assuring Yejide that there is no problem and that he doesn't believe in polygamy.

What grabbed me from the start was Iya Martha's tale and her obvious resentment toward Yejide. She got her revenge on Yejide's mother by ganging up on Yejide w/ Akin's mother to form this cabal against Yejide under the guise of wanting grandchildren. This was a matriarchy masquerading as the arbiters of the patriarchy. And boy if that didn't start my blood boiling early--and often.

And Beverly, I must confess, that it wasn't until I finished the book and went back to make notes that I even noticed the first chapter was towards the end of the tale.

I too was sympathetic towards Yejide however even as a virgin how do you not recognize impotence? I believe the lack of a mother coupled with the negative stigma of a barren woman diverted her focus on anything other than herself. But back to chapter one, I commended her facade. I also fell in love with Akin when he refused a second wife. Little did I know what at first. The part about her going to the mountain men seemed out of place once I finished the story.

Monica wrote: "What grabbed me from the start was Iya Martha's tale and her obvious resentment toward Yejide. She got her revenge on Yejide's mother by ganging up on Yejide w/ Akin's mother to form this cabal against Yejide under the guise of wanting grandchildren. This was a matriarchy masquerading as the arbiters of the patriarchy. And boy if that didn't start my blood boiling early--and often..."

Monica - such a great point you make here (at least as I'm reading it) - that patriarchy is not the province of men alone, and that matriarchy isn't an antidote to it, but another tool of power.

Really hard to comment objectively about the characters in just the first part. My opinion of them having radically changed from the beginning of the book to the end. The only person who stayed the same in my eyes being Moomi, unrelenting in her need to dominate their lives. Both Akin and Yejide turning out not to be the people they were portrayed to be early on. Which is what gives the book it's surprises and power.

I'll come back to the load of questions for discussion #msg 16, and hope to start reading the audiobook since it came faster than eBook via Overdrive tomorrow and see if I can jump in the discussion or wait until 3/10.

William wrote: "Really hard to comment objectively about the characters in just the first part. My opinion of them having radically changed from the beginning of the book to the end. The only person who stayed the..."

I so agree!!!

One of the things I love about this group's discussions is that we discuss the book along the way, with the information we have at the time. That approach allows everyone to experience and discuss the book as they read, rather than waiting until we are all finished to comment on the book as a whole.

Would you prefer to change our approach this month, ditch the planned reading schedule and comment on the book as a whole now? I'm up for whatever members prefer.

Tiffany wrote: "I too was sympathetic towards Yejide however even as a virgin how do you not recognize impotence? I believe the lack of a mother coupled with the negative stigma of a barren woman diverted her focu..."

In the beginning I thought that Yejide and Akin made for a wonderful love story/marriage and thought that I would have a "modern" marriage.

But then it seems "tradition" and the need to have an offspring but Akin in an awkward position.

In chapter 3 (p.21) Akin says "Before I got married, I believed could do anything. I learned soon enough that it couldn't bear the weight of four years without children. If the burden is too much and stays too long, even love bends, cracks, comes close to breaking and sometimes does break. But even when it's in a thousand pieces around your feet, that doesn't mean it's no longer love."

I like talking about the book a bit at a time. I've finished Part One and I am really enjoying the writing and the story. I agree about the matriarchy coming through to replace the patriarchy with the same kind of power behaviors. I thought the scene when Moomi makes it clear that she is going to turn on Yejide was quite sad. I wonder if Yejide was in denial about the marriage and beliefs of Akin and his family from the start? She was clearly able to deceive herself with the pregnancy, so maybe she had convinced herself that Akin would stand by her.

One of the most difficult challenges is to not give away things when we've read the entire book. I took notes by part to help me avoid spoiling but of course some of my perceptions are based on the whole book and not just the parts. There is always going to be a mix of people who have read and who haven't. I like the schedule because inevitably there will be a discussion folks want to be involved in that may pass before they've had the chance to read. Nothing worse than wanting to make a point that was heartily discussed weeks earlier. The bar to enter the discussion can't be that we need to read the book of the month before the month starts. This is an incredibly fast read. We may be able to accelerate the timetable a little but i would keep a schedule for sure to allow for max participation. This is such a great book for a book club read. There will be much to discuss...

Thanks, Monica. An accelerated schedule may be the best answer. There is, indeed, so much here.

We are now discussing any general comments on Stay With Me, along with any events that occur in Parts 1 and 2 (through page 181).

If your comment reflects events from Parts 3 or 4, please use spoiler tags for now; however, since we have a critical mass of participants who have finished or are further ahead, next week, we will encourage comments on the book as a whole, with no spoiler tags or restrictions

Refreshed schedule:

March 1 - 10: Parts 1 and 2, chapters 1 - 30 (through page 181)

March 11 - 17: Parts 3 and 4, chapters 31 to the end

March 18 - 31 ongoing discussion

On page 167, Moomi declares, “This is Abiku.”

I found this article online discussing the Yoruba belief in Abiku.

https://folakemiodoaje.com/2014/04/30...

Geez Louise, day 5 and everyone has zoomed along. I will catch up soon.

Ace wrote: "Geez Louise, day 5 and everyone has zoomed along. I will catch up soon."

I know the feeling, Ace! It is difficult to put down, though, so
I understand.

Beverly great point. Your right Akin was under immense pressure however his wife’s love and ignorance kept them both in a dark place. He refusal to participate or engage in talk about sex with the fellow hairdressers lead me to believe that she knew something was askew. But once again she owned it and didn’t even imagine it could be something other than her

Tiffany wrote: "Beverly great point. Your right Akin was under immense pressure however his wife’s love and ignorance kept them both in a dark place. He refusal to participate or engage in talk about sex with the ..."

I also thought one of the reasons Yejide did not engage in the sex talk with the other women is because of the isolation way she was raised. The other women in a father's household shunned her and in turn their kids so she did not have female friendships and even in college she seemed to stay to herself. So who to trust was hard for her, especially when it came to females. She actually seemed more comfortable with males which probably relates to her relationship with her father.

While she may have realized something was wrong, she did love Akin, so does she risk raising the issue with him or with females was hard. And all this time she is also thinking it is her fault that she is not getting pregnant.

Also I wondered if Akin chose her to be his wife because of her lack of experience. I do believe he loved her.

Karen Michele wrote: "I wonder if Yejide was in denial about the marriage and beliefs of Akin and his family from the start? She was clearly able to deceive herself with the pregnancy, so maybe she had convinced herself that Akin would stand by her. "

That's a very interesting question. I think they might both have been naive and idealistic about their marriage and the rules that would apply. They were very young when the got together. When you are young conventions and traditions aren't near as daunting. Beverly hit it square on the head highlighting the passage "Before I got married, I believed could do anything. I learned soon enough that it couldn't bear the weight of four years without children. If the burden is too much and stays too long, even love bends, cracks, comes close to breaking and sometimes does break. But even when it's in a thousand pieces around your feet, that doesn't mean it's no longer love."

Beverly Akin said he knew he wanted her when he first laid eyes on her. The sick part is that he knew he had this issue and whatever woman he chose was going to eventually feel this torment of not being able to have a child. I almost feel sorry for him and loathe him at the same time.

I’m not defending Akin, but I suspect that early on in his twenties he truly believed treatments would work, e.g., he didn’t buy into a future of any woman he married inevitably being childless. Was his pride more important than truth in the moment? Certainly. But by the time (view spoiler)[he discusses his insemination plan with his brother, he no longer has faith in the efficacy of his treatments and impliedly accepts the permanency of his impotency, sufficient to plan/require his brother to father all four of his children. (it was four, right? I can’t find it now. (hide spoiler)]

I attributed Yejide’s lack of knowledge to her lack of a mother or close female friends. She was so completely alone. The women in her salon were not women with whom she would have discussed a topic this serious or personal. She is circumspect by nature. I’m not certain, but wasn’t there also a class/education gap between Yejide and the salon denizens? Yejide was educated and I imagine her displaying the Diahann Carroll raised eyebrow (dating myself, I know) on many occasions when others were lewd and crude around her. I could be imagining this or misremembering, of course.

Carol wrote: "I’m not defending Akin, but I suspect that early on in his twenties he truly believed treatments would work, e.g., he didn’t buy into a future of any woman he married inevitably being childless. Wa..."

I agree Akin thought the treatments would work.
As the story moved on, it seemed Akin's pride and the expectations of his culture on what defines a "man" seem to be more important.

Well, I think most young people are naïve and idealistic about marriage and societal rules. I'd say Yejide and Akin were young, intelligent and educated and assumed they would lead a life less bound by tradition and culture than their parents' lives and other more normal circumstances, that might have proven to be the case, at least to a far greater extent than it was. I find it impossible not to lay the blame for this at Akin's feet and much grief might have been avoided had he been more honest with Yejide and Moomi in particular. There is at least some question in my mind how much Akin was in denial himself but lying to his wife Yejide about it all for years is unforgiveable to me as was allowing his family to pressure him into bringing in a second wife and putting her through all this as well. In fact, I find it hard to understand why the author seems so forgiving of Akin for that matter.

Carol wrote: "I’m not defending Akin, but I suspect that early on in his twenties he truly believed treatments would work, e.g., he didn’t buy into a future of any woman he married inevitably being childless."

Yes that's something I really hadn't considered. What if Akin was fine with the traditions of marriage and children, he just figured he would be cured of his affliction. As for Yejide's role and thoughts on marriage, I really got the impression that she didn't think that not having children would be an issue initially. I got the impression early that her understanding of her relationship with Akin was that polygamy was not on the menu no matter what the circumstance. She couldn't imagine a condition that would make it acceptable to him. That such conditions existed was a real betrayal and eye opener. (view spoiler)[putting in spoiler tags because I don't remember where in the book that Yejide said this "Akin could keep himself neatly folded in while he drew out other people. He was the kind of person that many claimed as a dear friend. Many of those people did not even know him, but they never knew they did not know him." (hide spoiler)]

George wrote: "Well, I think most young people are naïve and idealistic about marriage and societal rules. I'd say Yejide and Akin were young, intelligent and educated and assumed they would lead a life less boun..."

I agree. Akin uses and lies to Yejide, to his brother, and his mother. I don’t think he lies to Funmi, but he does use her for his own ends and, as soon as she calls him on the reality of his impotence, he ends that conversation immediately, so to speak.

So does our author intend for us to let Akin off the hook because of his parenting of Rotimi? When he knew better, he did better? Is he intended to represent a typical eldest son, of whom all sins and wrongdoing are or should be forgiven? Yejide finally throws up her hands when Akin (view spoiler)[fails to apologize... at that point in the book, an apology seemed like she was still selling herself short, to me, that the magnitude of his lies and pattern of lying could be solved for her by an expression of remorse for the past, as if she still believes he is capable of NOT lying in the future. (hide spoiler)]

Monica wrote: "Carol wrote: "I’m not defending Akin, but I suspect that early on in his twenties he truly believed treatments would work, e.g., he didn’t buy into a future of any woman he married inevitably being..."

That quote stuck with me, too, Monica. I don’t recall where it is in the book, but the implications for every relationship he has are clear.

I find myself wondering what would have been the result of actually telling Moomi? How would she have reacted to that? would she have gone after Yejide anyway?

George wrote: "I find myself wondering what would have been the result of actually telling Moomi? How would she have reacted to that? would she have gone after Yejide anyway?"

Maybe it would have depended on when in this series of life events he told her, and also whether she would have believed him. Then again, I’m thinking of her mistrust of Western medicine which may have extended to denial of his condition. She might not have accepted a story/explanation that allocated “blame” for childlessness to her son.

Carol wrote: "George wrote: "I find myself wondering what would have been the result of actually telling Moomi? How would she have reacted to that? would she have gone after Yejide anyway?"

Maybe it would have ..."

Well, not quickly anyway. But she would have taken steps to use traditional medicine immediately and then decided, or so I think. perhaps she would have blamed Yejide initially for not being sufficiently attractive or "attentive" to her son's needs and still arranged for the 2nd wife. Can't say obviously, but it remains an interesting question.

George wrote: "I find myself wondering what would have been the result of actually telling Moomi? How would she have reacted to that? would she have gone after Yejide anyway?"

I actually think she would have gone after Yejide because I don't think her pov is based upon fact, I think it is based upon power. Admitting that Akin was the issue is akin (see what I did there) to dimishing her own power in the relationship. Akin is her source of power in her relationship w/ Yejide. And this novel suggests there is a very rigid heirarchy among women in tradtional families. Moomi demands her place. But I think she would have been in denial about Akin's role regardless of facts. Upton Sinclair once said "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." Salary here being wealth or enrichment or respect. At any rate, it feels like status and social standing were more important to Moomi. That being measured by the virility of your male offspring...

Some of the enjoyment of this book for me was that there were many secrets and unknown thoughts regarding the characters. So the twists and turns were based what the characters did often with us the readers learning the true motives a little later. So the author was allowed to tell the story way she wanted.

As I was reading the comments - another thought came to mind - was Akin afraid to tell Yejide the truth because he was afraid she would leave me - was she putting unknown "pressure" on him because she really desired a child and he did not know if having a child would be more important to her than remaining with him.

I was also reminded on something that I read in Kintu where a girlfriend was more concerned with having a child than her boyfriend marrying her. "With seed locked away, she had not grown roots deep enough to secure her against future storms. A child was far more secure than waddling down the aisle with a wedding ring and piece of paper."

Carol I think it was deeper than pride for Akin. I thing tradition and pressure from his elders made him hold on to his secret until the end. The main purpose of polygamy is to procreate. In countries that practice it that is their staple. Their way of life is to create generations and if you can’t do that then your pointless. I thin that was embedded in his mind.