Classics and the Western Canon discussion

After four books based back in Ithaca and the Peloponnese with Telemachus, we now turn our attention to Oedipus, who has wandered for ten years since leaving Troy. We find him weeping on the beach on Ogygia because Calypso will not let him depart her island. But on Olympus, Zeus has agreed to send Hermes to Calypso to order her to let Odysseus go. So he does, and reluctantly Calypso lets him build a raft and provides him with provisions, and off he goes.
But Poseidon, who was not at the conclave of the Gods where Zeus sent off Hermes, now returns, sees Odysseus on his raft, and sends great storm which swamps his raft. Fortunately for Odysseus, who fears he is about to drown after two days and nights tossed by the waves, Athena and the sea nymph Ino, or Leucothea, bring him safely to shore on the island of Scheria, home of the Phaeacians.
Calypso’s impassioned plaint against the double standard of the male gods, implicitly echoed in the human roles, is a stark reminder, if we needed one, of the sexual roles of Greek society. Male gods are allowed to take mortal lovers, but she must give hers up. And while Penelope is expected to remain unsullied for the twenty years waiting for her husband to return, Odysseus is free to take lovers if he wishes. There is nothing new about the double standard.
At any rate, with Odysseus battered and bruised but at least for now safe on the sands of Scheria, Athena sends a dream to Princess Nausicaa to go to the river to wash her clothes. She does, and as she and her friends are playing ball naked while waiting for their clothes to dry, Odysseus, also naked, encounters them. Nausicaa tells Odysseus, who has not yet revealed who he is, to wash himself, and Athena makes Odysseus appear handsome to Nausicaa, who starts to fall in love with him. (I don’t recall whether we’re ever told how old Odysseus is, but he has to be at least 40, and probably more, because he was active king on Ithaca with an infant son before the Trojan War, and then there are the ten years of the war and the ten years of wandering. And from the Iliad it seems that Odysseuswas already a somewhat mature man before the war. But maybe Nausicaa likes older men.)
Nausicaa cannot be seen walking with a male stranger, so she tells Odysseus how to get to the palace and what to say to her mother when he meets her, and off they both go independently.

I think your autocorrect is having a Freudian-slip moment here, Everyman. (Do keyboards dream of sexy electronic parents?)

Everyman wrote: Calypso’s impassioned plaint against the double standard of the male gods, implicitly echoed in the human roles, is a stark reminder, if we needed one, of the sexual roles of Greek society. Male gods are allowed to take mortal lovers, but she must give hers up. And while Penelope is expected to remain unsullied for the twenty years waiting for her husband to return, Odysseus is free to take lovers if he wishes. There is nothing new about the double standard.

I thought that tirade was interesting because Calypso, a lowly nymph, is free to "let fly at" Hermes, an Olympian god. And yet, after the tirade, she obeys.

Hermes says,

“Still, none can sway or check the will of Zeus.”

That seems to be true for Hermes, who comes to Calypso Island even though he didn't want to. Which is also true for Calypso, who lets Odysseus go as soon as Zeus decrees it.

But it also raised my eyebrow -- didn't Book V start with Athena strong-arming Zeus into endorsing her fearful plan? Is Athena "checking the will of Zeus"?

Yeah, Everyman.. Just call him "O," or "the Big O" for the purposes of this discussion, and we'll know who you mean.

Who's this Oedipus dude?

It's so weird that even Calypso owns slave girls - Mortals are completely at their mercy to begin with. What's the differences between a "free man" and a "slave girl" in that hierarchy?

“The goddess gave him human food and drink.
She sat and faced godlike Odysseus
while slave girls brought her nectar and ambrosia.”

Turns out Zeus was right. Everybody blames everything on him!
Divine jealousy is not why the gods made Calypso release Odysseus, but that didn't stop her from blaming Zeus.

I thought this was ... cutely embarrassing? Burlesque? (Reminds me of Leopold Bloom in Nighttown.)

“No, goddess, I will not get on a raft,
unless you swear to me a mighty oath
you are not planning yet more pain for me.”

Odysseus doesn't seem very heroic (at least not in the Iliadic sense.) His looking across the water, sighing, crying reminds me of Dante's Limbo.

Lia wrote: "Divine jealousy is not why the gods made Calypso release Odysseus, but that didn't stop her from blaming Zeus...."

We have heard many times of Athena's special relationship with Odysseus. If it weren't for her taking advantage of Poseidon's absence and prodding Zeus to order the release of Odysseus, he might still be stuck there.

It seems to me that Calypso is correct in attributing his release to divine jealousy. In this case, it is Athena's jealousy of Calypso's relationship with Odysseus. The only question in my mind is why Athena waited so many years to obtain his release.

Tamara wrote: "The only question in my mind is why Athena waited so many years to obtain his release....."

Officially (that is, according to the narrative voice in Book I), she had to wait until Poseidon was away from Olympus for a long enough time for her to prod Zeus to give the order.

Why Poseidon hadn't gone off to visit the Ethiopians, or someone else, during the previous seven years, is, of course, never explained. It is just the story as given to us. In a modern writer I would complain about a plot-hole that big, but in "Homer" the Muses and the singer don't have to tell you everything.

(Come to think of it, a line about how the Ethiopians held their great Poseidon-festival every seven years would probably do the trick.)

Like father like son. It seems Odysseus and Telemachus both have a dangerous habit of expressing doubt about the gods in their presence with only a mild rebuke in response. How do they manage to say such things?

[III.250] And Telemachus answered him:
“I do not think, sir, this will ever happen. The very thought amazes me. It is too much
To hope for, even if the gods willed it.”
Then Athena, eyes flashing, put in:
[III.255] “Telemachus, what a thing to say!

[Odysseus] You’re not going to catch me setting foot on any raft Unless you agree to swear a solemn oath
That you’re not planning some new trouble for me.”
Calypso’s smile was like a shower of light. [V.180] She touched him gently, and teased him a little:
“Blasphemous, that’s what you are—but nobody’s fool! How do you manage to say things like that?
Lombardo Trans

Lia wrote: "I think your autocorrect is having a Freudian-slip moment here, Everyman. (Do keyboards dream of sexy electronic parents?)."

I blame this disease eating away at my brain.

Tamara wrote: "We have heard many times of Athena's special relationship with Odysseus. If it weren't for her taking advantage of Poseidon's absence and prodding Zeus to order the release of Odysseus, he might still be stuck there. ."

Brain partly fried, but weren't we told some time back that the gods had decreed that Odysseus would only have to wander for 10 years?

Everyman wrote: "Brain partly fried, but weren't we told some time back that the gods had decreed that Odysseus would only have to wander for 10 years?..."

I can't recall if the gods specified 10 years. But in the opening of Book 1, we are told that the time the gods had decreed for his wandering had now ended:

. . . When the year rolled round
in which the gods decreed he should go home
to Ithaca, his troubles still went on.
(Wilson, I: 17-19)

And when long years and seasons
wheeling brought around that point of time
ordained for him to make his passage homeward,
trials and dangers, even, so, attended him
even in Ithaka, near those he loved.
(Fitzgerald, I: 16-20)

So it seems as if it were a combination of factors that triggered his release: his time for wandering was up; Poseidon's absence; and Athena's intervention.

There was
a great fire blazing on the hearth, and the smell of cedar
split in billets, and sweetwood burning, spread all over
the island. She was singing inside the cave with a sweet voice
as she went up and down the loom and wove with a golden shuttle.
There was a growth of grove around the cavern, flourishing,
alder was there, and the black poplar, and fragrant cypress,
and there were birds with spreading wings who made their nests in it,
little owls, and hawks, and birds of the sea with long beaks
who are like ravens, but all their work is on the sea water;
and right about the hollow cavern extended a flourishing
growth of vine that ripened with grape clusters. Next to it
there were four fountains, and each of them ran shining water,
each next to each, but turned to run in sundry directions;
and round about there were meadows growing soft with parsley
and violets, and even a god who came into that place
would have admired what he saw, the heart delighted within him.
(Lattimore)

I'm really noticing this time the sensual beauty with which Homer paints Ogygia. As an interesting aside, Platonists from relatively early on allegorized Kalypso's island (like Kirke's) as the cave of delusion/appearances from which the soul must escape to its true homeland (Ithaka). Hermes is in this exegesis the divine logos that sets the soul free from bodily passions.

Who would willingly make the run across this endless
salt water? And there is no city of men nearby, nor people
who offer choice hecatombs to the gods, and perform sacrifice.

Interesting that the Olympian gods seem most comfortable in "civilized" regions where they receive sacrifice. It makes sense, but I was struck by it.

Tamara wrote: We have heard many times of Athena's special relationship with Odysseus. If it weren't for her taking advantage of Poseidon's absence and prodding Zeus to order the release of Odysseus, he might still be stuck there.

It seems to me that Calypso is correct in attributing his release to divine jealousy. In this case, it is Athena's jealousy of Calypso's relationship with Odysseus.



Because Calypso was venting about Zeus' sexual misconducts, I just assumed she's talking about sexual exploitation. I think Athena is exploiting him, I just don't think it's the sexual kind. But non-sexual-jealousy is still divine-jealousy, which seems to run wild amongst the Olympians. (Judgment of Paris and all that.)



Tamara wrote:. The only question in my mind is why Athena waited so many years to obtain his release.

You know how the first 12 books of Odyssey are not in chronological order, and a lot of disastrous things happened to Odysseus and his men before Athena stepped in (beginning of Book I)? The boredom and waiting on Calypso Island is just a longer form of ongoing torture for Odysseus. But then the gods have a different experience of time compared to mortals, so I don't even know if it's meaningful for the gods.

With that in mind, it’s easier to imagine Athena wanted her pet-human to suffer until she called assembly in Book I. The Wrath Of Athena: Gods And Men In The Odyssey argues, not unreasonably I think, that it's actually Athena's wrath, not the Sun, not Poseidon, that's the main driver of his punishments, Benardete also thinks the point of waiting so long is for Odysseus to feel truly abandoned by the gods, Calypso failing to explain the gods made her release him is part of the "conspiracy" to make him feel abandoned. Clay thinks somewhere in Odysseus' sufferings they reconciled and that's when she finally steps in. (But Clay fails to explain why Athena transfers the blames to Poseidon.)

David wrote: "Like father like son. It seems Odysseus and Telemachus both have a dangerous habit of expressing doubt about the gods in their presence with only a mild rebuke in response. How do they manage to sa..."

Odysseus also distrusts Leukothea, who offers him her shawl of immortality. He says he won't use it until the last minute, when his raft is smashed to bits, in case the shawl is just another one of the gods' tricks. On the other hand, he openly prays to the river god without being prompted, with no sense of disbelief or distrust, and his prayer is answered.

Rex wrote: "As an interesting aside, Platonists from relatively early on allegorized Kalypso's island (like Kirke's) as the cave of delusion/appearances from which the soul must escape to its true homeland (Ithaka). Hermes is in this exegesis the divine logos that sets the soul free from bodily passions."

Fascinating! Do they make anything of Hermes' displeasure at having to make the trip? Hermes marvels at the island, but then offers a complaint:

Zeus ordered me to come here; it was not by any choice of my own. Who would choose to dash across so unspeakably vast an expanse of bitter salt water? There's not even a single city nearby where mortals could offer up sacrifices to the gods with multitudes of choice beasts. 5.98

It's like going to a pristine tropical island and then lamenting the absence of a major opera house.

Rex wrote: "Interesting that the Olympian gods seem most comfortable in "civilized" regions where they receive sacrifice. It makes sense, but I was struck by it."

Yea, they seem a bit insecure. What would a god be without people to acknowledge them? It reminds me of the premise behind Neil Gaiman's American Gods where the old gods are wasting away and dying without people who believe in them and were being replaced by new popular gods of pop culture and technology. A god is only as powerful as the number of people who believe in it.

Thomas wrote: "Fascinating! Do they make anything of Hermes' displeasure at having to make the trip?"

Unfortunately, these are not the sort of texts that usually make it into translation, so I don't have firsthand experience of them and only know the rudest outlines of their exegesis. There's an article out there by Félix Buffière called "La Notion de 'Logos' dans L'Exegese d'Homere" which I might answer your question.

Rex wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Fascinating! Do they make anything of Hermes' displeasure at having to make the trip?"

Unfortunately, these are not the sort of texts that usually make it into translation, so I don..."


:( I was really hoping to read up more on it.

In _The_Bow_And_The_Lyre, Benardete did talk about how a god like Hermes easily comprehends the full nature of things.

From that, I infer Hermes understands the fantastic appearance and concealed (calypsoed?) apolitical reality belong together as one unit. The “dark side” is immediately apparent to him, it took Odysseus years to stop finding the “picture” pleasurable and finally rejects it. Which contrasts with how Menelaus looks forward to that kind of fantastic picture with equanimity.

Lia wrote: "I was really hoping to read up more on it...."

The academic periodical literature does cover a lot of the ancient interpreters of Homer, from the point of view of morality, physical phenomena, and metaphysics. As examples, I've worked up a short list of recent articles on interpretations from the Stoic school, and some of its critics. They are all available as pdfs from academia.edu (requires setting up a free account, if you don't already have one).

The Dispute on Homer: Exegetical Polemic in Galen’s Criticism of Chrysippus,” in M. Niehoff (ed.), Homer and the Bible in the Eyes of Ancient Interpreters (Leiden: Brill, forthcoming), pp. 175-197.
by Sharon Weisser
https://www.academia.edu/1986209/_The...

Stoic Interpretations of Homer (from The Homer Encyclopedia, ed. M. Finkelberg)
by James I. Porter
https://www.academia.edu/26783303/Sto...

and, among others by Mikolaj Domaradzki:

Theological Etymologizing in the Early Stoa
https://www.academia.edu/29033216/The...

Chrysippus on the Hierogamy of Zeus and Hera
https://www.academia.edu/29032960/Chr...

Theagenes of Rhegium and the Rise of Allegorical Interpretation
https://www.academia.edu/29033194/The...

The much-later Neo-Platonic readings of Homeric are notoriously abstruse: the example usually offered is Porphyry's interpretation of a short passage in the Odyssey. A translation of it may be found in:

"Select works of Porphyry; containing his four books On abstinence from animal food; his treatise On the Homeric cave of the nymphs; and his Auxiliaries to the perception of intelligible natures"
translated by Thomas Taylor, 1823

https://archive.org/details/selectwor...

(The Internet Archive (archive.org) offers several copies -- I've singled out one with an unmarked text, and no discoloring of the pages.)

Cheers Ian.

I should probably be more careful about what I wish for. I just put the Cambridge + Blackwell Companion on hold, and now I have a few more papers to read.

Have you found any that specifically deals with Calypso/Circe as appearance vs Ithaca as "homeland?" (This kind of reminds me of Waugh's novella, The Loved One. Actually it also reminds me of the whole debate about whether WB Yeats was Platonist/ neo-Platonist.)

Rex wrote: "Interesting that the Olympian gods seem most comfortable in "civilized" regions where they receive sacrifice. It makes sense, but I was struck by it...."

I think one of the reasons Olympian gods are most comfortable in "civilized" regions is because gender hierarchy is firmly entrenched in those regions. Females play a subordinate role in civilized regions.

The two powerful females who control their domain and who are not subservient to any male within that domain are Circe and Calypso. They both live on islands far from "civilized" regions.

I guess the message is if you're a woman and want to rule the nest, you have to get the heck out of Dodge.

Rex wrote: "Interesting that the Olympian gods seem most comfortable in "civilized" regions where they receive sacrifice "

... I think it depends on WHICH Olympian god? Some seem to protect uncivilised cave-dwellers and punish those that are too helpful and hospitable (sign of civilisation.)

David wrote: "Like father like son. It seems Odysseus and Telemachus both have a dangerous habit of expressing doubt about the gods in their presence with only a mild rebuke in response. How do they manage to sa..."

It sounds like Calypso was pleased with Odysseus for being so mistrustful.

”At last you are in pain! Go drift across the sea, till you meet people blessed by Zeus, the Sky Lord. But even then, I think you will not lack for suffering.” He spurred his fine-maned horses, and went to Aegae, where he had his home.

For all that tiptoeing around Poseidon, it didn’t take much for him to feel satisfied, pack up, and go home. He only wanted to hurt him a little… so moderate, so just!

Athena, child of Zeus, devised a plan. She blocked the path of all the other winds, told them to cease and made them go to sleep, but roused swift Boreas and smoothed the waves in front of him, so that Odysseus could reach Phaeacia and escape from death. Two days and nights he drifted on the waves: each moment he expected he would die. But when the Dawn with dazzling braids brought day for the third time, the wind died down. No breeze, but total calm.

The calming of an angry sea reminds me of a certain biblical tale, about a certain fearful man of little faith.

Why does Athena appoint herself the agent driving the entire story if she respects her uncle Poseidon so much?

Thus [Odysseus'] prayer, and Pallas Athena heard it
But did not appear to him face to face, not yet,
Out of respect for her uncle, who would rage against
Godlike Odysseus until he reached home.
Lombardo Translation

Lia wrote: "Cheers Ian.

I should probably be more careful about what I wish for. I just put the Cambridge + Blackwell Companion on hold, and now I have a few more papers to read.

Have you found any that specifically deals with Calypso/Circe as appearance vs Ithaca as "homeland?"..."

Unfortunately, no: academia.edu's search engine is a blunt instrument when it comes to details like that, and archive.org isn't that much better.

There may be something in a book I have NOT read, but only located on Amazon -- it might be available to you through a library: "Transformations of Circe: The History of an Enchantress," by Judith Yarnall

https://www.amazon.com/Transformation...

There *may* be something buried in a book which can be read for free, but on-line only, at the Center for Hellenic Studies website -- I haven't yet made the time to take a really close look at it. It has a detailed chapter (3) on the Odyssey, Book V, but it doesn't seem to discuss allegorical readings at that point (although I may have missed it): its bibliography could be helpful.

Ann Bergren. 2008. Weaving Truth: Essays on Language and the Female in Greek Thought. Hellenic Studies Series 19.

https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/d...

Then too, there might be something in a recent (2017) volume: Greta Hawes', "Circean Enchantments and the Transformations of Allegory" is chapter eight in Vanda Zaiko and Helena Hoyle (editiors), "Handbook to the Reception of Classical Mythology" (Wiley Blackwell Handbooks to Classical Reception). Once more, you might be able to consult it via a library.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=...

The Wiley Blackwell site (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/p...) offers the following summary of Hawes' discussion:

"This chapter examines the boldly counter‐intuitive readings produced by ancient allegorists and their place in the Greek mythic tradition. A more productive strategy, adopted by Philip the Philosopher and others, capitalized instead on the presence of the underlying meanings to recover wisdom within seemingly frivolous narratives. This powerful mode of reading, allegoresis, was an instrument of transformation. Allegorists argued boldly for the inherent virtue and utility of poetry, particularly that of Homer. Philip's image of a single substance effecting both contemplative insight and dangerous temptation is prefigured in an allegory of the Circe episode in Heraclitus' Homeric Problems. Evidence for ancient allegorical practice consists of a diverse series of extant texts and fragments. The “tradition” spans early interpretations of Homer attributed to the sixth‐century critic Theagenes of Rhegium, the religious speculations of the Derveni Papyrus, Stoic philosophies of language, Imperial textbooks."

Thanks again Ian, sorry about the weirdly specific request.

The CHS website is great -- a few clicks and I got them on kobo (ebook reader) via getPocket.

OTOH, I'm not quite half way through part 1, and I'm already enraged (about Freud's analyses character-assassination of women.) I hope they're not going to bring up Aristotle's musings on women, because I might turn into Achilles without Patroclus.

I can get the Vanda Zaiko book from my library but no Judith Yarnall. It looks so good I thought I'd buy it, but then the price! I don't understand why they price academic books like that, are they trying to deter readers?

P.S. I just started Pharr Clyde's Homeric Greek, I've been listening to Iliad on YouTube along with the text, my god, they sound JUST LIKE Ovid (Metamorphoses, his only hexameter piece IIRC) I literally can't tell if it's greek or latin, but I immediately recognised the sing-song beat and rhythm.

Rex wrote: "Unfortunately, these are not the sort of texts that usually make it into translation, so I don't have firsthand experience of them and only know the rudest outlines of their exegesis. There's an article out there by Félix Buffière called "La Notion de 'Logos' dans L'Exegese d'Homere..."

Thanks, Rex. I guess I shouldn't have expected open disclosure on the topic of hermeticism and Calypso. I'll look up the article.

David wrote: "Why does Athena appoint herself the agent driving the entire story if she respects her uncle Poseidon so much?Thus [Odysseus'] prayer, and Pallas Athena heard it
But did not appear to him face to f..."

Wilson translates it as

. . . And Athena
heard him but did not yet appear to him,
respecting her own brother in his fury
against Odysseus till he reached home.

Here it sounds as if she doesn't want to appear to be helping Odysseus in case Poseidon's anger toward her is directed at Odysseus. She wants to help but she is juggling a balancing act--how to help Odysseus without appearing to help him so as not to upset Poseidon.

Thomas wrote: "It's like going to a pristine tropical island and then lamenting the absence of a major opera house."

[g]

David wrote: "What would a god be without people to acknowledge them?."

That's a good point. It arises a number of times in Greek literature, that as far as the Gods are concerned, the major (perhaps the only, other than to provide sexual liaisons for Zeus and a few others) purpose of humans is to offer sacrifice to the gods. Otherwise, what good are they?

Tamara wrote: "Rex wrote: "Interesting that the Olympian gods seem most comfortable in "civilized" regions where they receive sacrifice. It makes sense, but I was struck by it....
I guess the message is if you're a woman and want to rule the nest, you have to get the heck out of Dodge."

[g]

Shows a difference between the gods and humans. Goddesses can, if they take the effort, be independent and rule their demesnes. But as we see with Penelope in Ithaca, and elsewhere in Greek literature (think Medea, for example), I don't recall offhand any instances of women rulers other than the Amazons.

Lia wrote: "I don't understand why they price academic books like that, are they trying to deter readers?..."

That, and the outrageous subscriptions for many specialized journals, have driven some academics -- even some fields of study -- to the Internet almost entirely, the main problem being setting up a peer-review system to give the articles credibility (and help the authors get tenure).

Academia.edu is a symptom of the problem, although some people don't want to use it for their own work because it, too, is a commercial enterprise (it sells advertising space, and there is a premium service for subscribers.)

Of course, in some fields, timeliness is critical, and those using the Internet also avoid long publication delays, as well as pricing most readers out of the market. But cost to readers is often mentioned as a key factor.

Some of the commercial publishers handling high-priced scholarly and technical works claim that they have only a small market, and they need to charge that much to cover their costs.

None of them seem willing to admit that the low sales of their book and journals are probably driven by the cost -- only institutions can afford them, and not all of them, leaving out most professionals and students.

One of the European journal publishers made that claim when a controversy broke out over one their publications, and was reminded on-line that their products are actually unusually cheap to produce. No one pays the contributing authors, and the editorial work, sometimes down to the proofreading, is done free, too (being an editor for an established journal sometimes can count toward tenure). So far as anyone can tell, they paid no attention, but now there is a rival journal on-line, which may marginalize their publication even more.

The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago has put around eighty years worth of publications on-line. (These are mainly on the ancient Near East, not East Asia as the name now most likely suggests.) Free downloads are available for pretty much their entire catalogue, including out-of-print books that aren't likely to be re-issued (multi-volume, densely illustrated, excavation reports on Egyptian temples, for example).

They have reported that free downloads for the in-print books has *not* harmed their sales -- in fact they are now selling more of some them than they expected. Presumably, the free digital versions are also serving as free advertising, targeted to the very people most likely to want a hard copy, or to ask an institutional library to order it.

We're getting close to the point where looking at proposed maps of Odysseus's journey won't be spoilers. I did take a preliminary look at some of them on the Internet, and it's amazing how little agreement there is. Ogygia, for example, has been placed in Malta, in Egypt, far out in the Atlantic Ocean, and many other places.

There's a great debate about how accurate Homer's geography was. We know that Schliemann used the descriptions in the Iliad to discover Troy, so to that extent Homer was dead on. There is some agreement among the proposed maps as to some of the locations, but others are placed in wildly different locations.

There's a somewhat interesting book, "We Followed Odysseus," by Hal Roth about his sailboat trip, with his wife, trying to visit all the locations of the Odyssey. (He identifies Ogygia, for example, as Gozo, an island just off Malta. But I wonder, because it wouldn't have been all that great a journey for Hermes, and is close to Sicily, which certainly had plenty of civilization even then to honor the gods.)

About the double standard. It seems that this occur because the balance of power. It's fine to a male superior (god) to show interest (or beyond) in inferior females, but the opposite it's wrong. The goddess cannot sub to a mortal man. How the greeks saw this? It's subvert the world's status quo? The balance (difference) of power?

Did have you ever wondered how would be the Twitter in ancient Greece? Someone did.

"We Followed Odysseus" sounds like an interesting travel book, but it's a new example of an old genre. (There is a good joke from antiquity about finding real places in the Odyssey, but it contains a spoiler, so I'll hold off on it.)

As you pointed out, the Iliad's grasp of the geography of the coast-lands of Asia Minor and the adjacent islands seems fairly good -- although the tradition may reflect more than one historical period. (Several Greek cities in the region claimed to be his birthplace.)

But in the Odyssey problems begin as soon as the story hits mainland Greece: the spatial relationship between Pylos and Sparta is quite unclear. The western coast is even vaguer: figuring out the relationship of the islands ruled by Odysseus to what is actually there is an old problem.

As the speculative locations you mention might suggest, a lot of scholars would agree that anything beyond Greece is pretty much never-never land, with maybe a few points of resemblance to real places. The location of Circe's island is a notorious problem, but, again, explaining that will have to wait until we encounter it.

Everyman wrote: "There's a somewhat interesting book, "We Followed Odysseus," by Hal Roth about his sailboat trip, with his wife, trying to visit all the locations of the Odyssey..."

Some of you may already be familiar with An Odyssey: A Father, a Son, and an Epic by Daniel Mendelsohn. It's a combination of literary criticism of the Odyssey, a family memoir, and a travelogue, all of which are skillfully woven together with seamless transitions.

The literary criticism occurs when Daniel Mendelsohn, a Classics professor, conducts a seminar on the Odyssey. The family memoir occurs when Mendelsohn’s octogenarian father sits in on his seminar and contributes to the discussion and analysis. It's fascinating to read Mendelsohn as he interrogates his own relationship with his father and their reactions to the father/son relationship in the Odyssey. The travelogue occurs when father and son go on a literary cruise that re-traces Odysseus’ return from Troy.

Rafael wrote: "About the double standard. It seems that this occur because the balance of power. It's fine to a male superior (god) to show interest (or beyond) in inferior females, but the opposite it's wrong. T..."

Rafael, I think that is a really good point.

We see a manifestation of this in some cultures even today--men wanting to prevent their "women folk" from engaging in relations with males from a different class/race/caste since such relations would subvert the status quo and upset the balance of power.

Tamara wrote: "Rafael wrote: "About the double standard. It seems that this occur because the balance of power. It's fine to a male superior (god) to show interest (or beyond) in inferior females, but the opposit..."

Good to notice that. Yes, this idea today still exists.

Everyman wrote: "We're getting close to the point where looking at proposed maps of Odysseus's journey won't be spoilers. I did take a preliminary look at some of them on the Internet, and it's amazing how little a..."

It sounds like this is a whole genre of travel books—following in Odysseus’s footsteps. There’s also The Ulysses Voyage by Tim Severin where he and his crew attempt to recreate the voyage in a replica ship (not a raft ;). I’m hoping my copy will surface during this read — as I recall, Severin didn’t have much of an opinion of Odysseus.

Everyman wrote: "Thomas wrote: "It's like going to a pristine tropical island and then lamenting the absence of a major opera house."

[g]"

On Calypso's island, they only have steel drum bands.

Cphe wrote: "Question:

Why are the seas referred to as "wine dark"?"

That's a question that came up in another group. Someone responded that the Ancient Greeks did not have a word for the color blue. I don't know if that's true. Maybe Thomas can help us out.

But I've always read it as "the blue of the sea is as deep as the redness of wine." Or something like that.

Cphe wrote: "Question:

Why are the seas referred to as "wine dark"?"

First of all, color words often fail to translate well -- divisions of the spectrum aren't consistent between them, and, for example, "green" may not be distinguished from "blue." I've seen it speculated that the ancient (Iranian) name of the Black Sea really indicated "Dark Blue."

In the case in question, the word is *oinops,* and the meaning is disputed. It is also used for oxen, and, checking with the Perseus site, the standard Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek lexicon offers the usual "wine-dark" for the sea, but "wine-red, deep-red" for cattle. Both expressions seem to be fixed formulas.

I've seen the theory that it should be translated "wine-faced." This doesn't seem any more helpful at first glance, but ancient wines were not the clear product we mostly think of today. They contained flecks of grape-skin and bits of grape-seeds, which might be implicitly compared to sea-weed and other debris.

I have no idea how valid this suggestion is, but it doesn't seem to give us much help with the color of oxen.

Cphe wrote: "Question:

Why are the seas referred to as "wine dark"?"

Literally, "wine-faced." There have been many, many attempts to explain this, a lot of them rather silly. Fitzgerald believes this is a reference to rich hue rather than color. It's also possible that the difference in the way our culture and the ancient Greeks' divided the color spectrum is causing our difficulties, but it's hard to know that. Here's an interesting summary of some of the takes on it, and you can find others online.

EDIT: Just now seeing Ian's more thorough and helpful explanation.

Tamara wrote: That's a question that came up in another group. Someone responded that the Ancient Greeks did not have a word for the color blue. I don't know if that's true. Maybe Thomas can help us out.
"

It might be kyaneos which is sometimes translated light-blue, sometimes dark blue, and sometimes dark-hued. Euripides uses it to refer to the color of the sea, but Homer uses it to describe the color of Hector's hair... I guess Hector would fit in well with the kids today.

Thomas wrote: "Odysseus also distrusts Leukothea, who offers him her shawl of immortality. He says he won't use it until the last minute, when his raft is smashed to bits, in case the shawl is just another one of the gods' tricks. On the other hand, he openly prays to the river god without being prompted, with no sense of disbelief or distrust, and his prayer is answered."


He didn't openly pray though -- he "prayed in his heart":

He sensed its current; in his heart he prayed, “Unknown god, hear me! How I longed for you! I have escaped the salt sea and Poseidon. Even the deathless gods respect a man who is as lost as I am now. I have gone through so much and reached your flowing streams. Pity me, lord! I am your supplicant.” The current ceased; the River God restrained the waves and made them calm.

It sounds like he was thinking, or mentally bargaining, with the general idea of some god, like talking himself into believing that any deity out there is generally obligated to take care of a humble and unfortunate stranger. A bit like playing with the trolley problem inside his head.

Which seems not the same as verbal, public supplications to named gods you personally had a relationship with.

I find it interesting that Homer thinks the River God "heard" him and granted his demands anyway. So you only have to think it, gods read mind.

Cphe wrote: "Thomas wrote: "David wrote: "Like father like son. It seems Odysseus and Telemachus both have a dangerous habit of expressing doubt about the gods in their presence with only a mild rebuke in respo..."

Maybe Odysseus is simply projecting his own wiliness? Recall the cliche, beware of Greeks bearing gifts. Odysseus IS that Greek. Maybe the thought of receiving a gift/favor arouses suspicion in Odysseus because of his special history of gift giving, while asking for one seems less risky?

Are gifts something to be ware of? Should Telemachus beware of Menelaus' gift?

Rex wrote: "Cphe wrote: "Question:

Why are the seas referred to as "wine dark"?"

Literally, "wine-faced." There have been many, many attempts to explain this, a lot of them rather silly. Fitzgerald believes ..."

I like the idea in the article in Rex’s link that it means “dark as wine” and is usually associated with the word for deep water/ocean so it would refer more to the tonality of the color instead of the hue. Maybe I need a glass of wine to further investigate this....and a trip to the beach ;)