The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

In this section we see Lady Eustace wear her diamonds in public, and it becomes clear that the issue of the diamonds is becoming a topic of general conversation.

What is happening in the relationship between Lady Eustace and Lord Fawn?

What is happening in the relationship between Frank Greystock and Lady Eustace?

What more do we learn about the characters of Lady Eustace and of Frank Greystock?

Are there any new/minor characters that you felt were particularly well-drawn or that you would like to learn more about?

What do you think of the different settings we've seen so far? The residences in town, Fawn Court, and now Portray Castle and the Hunting Lodge in Scotland-do they change the atmosphere or the behaviours of our characters?

Please share your thoughts on this weeks chapters.

Madame Max was in here. That makes me wonder whether she's the "big heroine" of this book. Her story was left unfinished (which means, in Trollope's books, that she's not married or hasn't made an explicit decision to remain unmarried), so maybe we will see more of her.

While Lizzie is clearly in the wrong, I can see how impossible it is for someone with her pride to give up now. Frank has a huge blind spot when it comes to his cousin. He knows what she is but is easily charmed by her. If this were Hardy, I'd imagine a pretty grim ending for Lizzie and a possible one for Frank. But I'm guessing the worst Trollope will do with her is have her run off to another country or die of unexpected but natural causes. But maybe he will surprise me.

It seemed to me that in this section not much new happened, but all the characters became entrenched in their positions. I actually like Lord Fawn better because he stood up to Lizzie. He's not captivated by her like Frank is. On the other hand, Frank has the usual Trollope young man's flaw of fickleness. He's so much affected by his cousin. that he gets lost on the mountain (kind of a metaphor for wandering in his affections). I'm curious to know more about Frank's companion.

It seems like Lizzie is more concerned about having her way and being "right" than being happy.

I don't like the way she is snaking between Frank and Lucy, although it makes for good drama. Lizzie's ego is out of control.

Robin wrote: I'm curious to know more about Frank's companion.."

I am too-he seems a likeable and somewhat unfortunate young man in that his poverty means he doesn't appear to have a hope of ever marrying. I hope he returns later to give some much-needed sage advice to young Frank!

As a lawyer, I find it interesting how often the young lawyers are depicted as in poverty and that the solution is marrying money.
I am again reminded in this story of the previous reader comment about how often Trollope describes characters' income and how much things, like the diamonds, are worth. I don't recall other Victorian authors talking about incomes as often. And its not just the author describing it, the other characters seem to know and talk about the person's income. Actually, I wouldn't mind if more contemporary novels described the characters' income as I'm a bit nosy about such facts,

That was a big feature of Jane Austen novels as well, perhaps because she came from a family where income would be an issue for marrying.

Yes, but Austen was a Regency not Victorian author. I'm kidding, as other 19th century novelists, like Austen, did talk about incomes and dowry amounts. Trollope just does it more often but maybe it just seems that way by the 9th novel in the Project.
In the 20th Century, women who marry rich, often older. men are disparaged as gold diggers. In 19th Century England, men who marry rich, sometimes older, women, seem admired for being sensible. The expected solution for a young lawyer struggling for income is to marry money rather than to work harder and get more and better clients. The good old days.

Brian wrote: "Yes, but Austen was a Regency not Victorian author. I'm kidding, as other 19th century novelists, like Austen, did talk about incomes and dowry amounts. Trollope just does it more often but maybe i..."

Not sure how exact our lawyer friend is defining his terms. I cannot think of many novels from almost any pre modern era were money was not mentioned. That is is is integral in the establishing the suitability of the match or in allowing the plot to even indicate a possible match. Money or its various proxies, class, land and etc.
The romantic formula either insured that only the gentry met the gentry or the landed met the landed. At most someone was allowed to' Marry up', but that would be a major attention point.

They do not get much more Victorian than Gilbert and Sullivan:
ARTIST: Gilbert and Sullivan
TITLE: When I, Good Friends, Was Called to the Bar
Lyrics


[Trial By Jury]

When I, good friends, was call'd to the bar
I'd an appetite fresh and hearty
But I was, as many young barristers are
An impecunious party
I'd a swallow-tail coat of a beautiful blue
And a brief which I bought of a booby
A couple of shirts, and a collar or two
And a ring that looked like a ruby

He'd a couple of shirts, and a collar or two
And a ring that look'd like a ruby

At Westminister Hall I danc'd a dance
Like a semi-despondent fury
For I tho't I never should hit on a chance
Of addressing a British jury
But I soon got tired of third-class journeys
And dinners of bread and water
So I fell in love with a rich attorney's
Elderly, ugly daughter

So he fell in love with a rich attorney's
Elderly, ugly daughter

The rich attorney, he jump'd with joy
And replied to my fond professions
"You shall reap the reward of your pluck, my boy
At the Bailey and Middlesex Sessions
You'll soon get used to her looks," said he
"And a very nice girl you will find her
She may very well pass for forty-three
In the dusk, with a light behind her"

She has often been taken for forty three
In the dusk, with a light behind her

The rich attorney was good as his word
The briefs came trooping gaily
And every day my voice was heard
At the Sessions of ancient Bailey
All thieves, who could my fees afford
Relied on my orations
And many a burglar I've restored
To his friends and his relations

And many a burglar he's restored
To his friends and his relations

At length I became as rich as the Gurneys
An incubus then I thought her
So I threw over that rich attorney's
Elderly, ugly daughter
The rich attorney my character high
Tried vainly to disparage
And now, if you please, I'm ready to try
This breach of promise of marriage

And now, if you please, he's ready to try
This breach of promise of marriage

For now I'm a judge
And a good judge, too
Yes, now I'm a judge
And a good judge, too
Though all my law be fudge
Yet I'll never, never budge
And I'll live and die a judge
And a good Judge too


FWIW W. S. Gilbert was a Barrister , if only for a short time, averaging 5 clients a year. (Wiki)

Why thanks for the lyrics and info, Phrodrick. I did not know or remember that Gilbert was a barrister. but my knowledge of Gilbert and Sullivan is pretty much limited to the movie Topsy-Turvy.
While I wouldn't normally contest the existence of anyone more Victorian than Gilbert and Sullivan, since I finished watching Season 2 of Victoria on DVR this week, I would offer Queen Victoria as my candidate. But, on reflection, Gilbert and Sullivan probably did produce more work product that later societies would identify as representing Victorian England. Maybe Dickens for early and G&S for later Victorian.

Brian wrote: "Why thanks for the lyrics and info, Phrodrick. I did not know or remember that Gilbert was a barrister. but my knowledge of Gilbert and Sullivan is pretty much limited to the movie Topsy-Turvy.
Whi..."

Thank you and agreed.

In thinking about your original observations about literary Lawyers in the Edwardian and or Victorian age,:
I wonder if Lawyers and maybe Doctors represent the threshold between the the gentry and the working man?
Clearly anyone who worked with his hands is all but absent as a literary center piece, exempt a few like Far From the Madding Crowd, but lawyers seem to be gaining some admittance into the the awareness field of the social crowd.
Prelates by nature of the clothe had some degree of admittance, so a special allotment for them
.
Could law have become an allowed placement for 2nd or 3rd sons? The clothe was a traditional placement, along with the Army. Business (The tradesmane) was not allowed unless at a very high level or is the money was made out of sight, as in overseas colonies. At that money was not enough to be a real gentleman. Indeed one could be among the gentles and have littl eor no money.

Anyway, am I wrong? That lawyers seems to be just on the verge of welcome into the rounds of overnight guests in the finersocial circles.

As for medical doctors, it has been said that pre Napoleon, physicians were little more than servants. After they began to set more standards and get some authority and respect.

I really hope that Frank stays true to Lucy and that Lizzie gets what's coming to her. She is lacking in positive qualities, and now she even finds the necklace a burden.