Book Loving Kiwis discussion

If you intend to read Tizzie by Kiwi author P.D.R. Lindsay during the month of September, please leave a comment below. This will be our first book by a NZ BLK author member since June, as we have been/are currently reading Here be Dragons as a 'winter tome'.

Participating:
Erica

Discussing:
Angie
Ella's Gran
Kathleen
p.d.r.

I will join in with any discussions, as I read this book earlier this year.

I have also read this book and highly recommend it to anyone who likes historical fiction and/or family sagas.

Is this book available in a physical form or just as an e-book? My library doesn't stock it and I don't have an e-reader, but sounds like a good read.

It's available in paperback (9780994103741 about $18.00)through Wheelers. Probably get it through your local bookshop or you could see if your library would purchase a copy. Auckland public libraries have copies I see.

Ooh and I've just seen that fishpond have a copy too http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Books/Tizzi...
If I can get a copy organised for September, I'm in :)

Darn it! Lost my comment.

In brief, apologies for silence. Harrassed by neighbour, builder and the Book fair!

Charmed you are reading 'Tizzie'. Thank you most sincerely.

If it is permitted, and you would like author input, I am happy to answer your questions, queries and complaints about the book.

And thank you, Ela's Gran for helping out with a sale. Yes, Wheelers have the book as well as my author's page here which has links to sales places.

P.d.r. wrote: "Darn it! Lost my comment.

In brief, apologies for silence harrassed by nieghbour, builder and the Book fair!

Charmed you are reading 'Tizzie'. Thank you most sincerely.

If it is permitted, and y..."

Of course you're permitted to join in with the discussion. We'd be disappointed if you didn't :)

Cheers!

I have just purchased a copy of Tizzie so will get reading as soon as it arrives in the post :)

I wonder where Fishpond gets my books?

P.d.r. wrote: "I wonder where Fishpond gets my books?"

Fishpond don't necessarily hold stock of what they sell, but source from somewhere that does. They act in a clearing house type of role, so it's possible they could source from Wheelers or Amazon for example. In US they are often referred to as fulfillment centers!

I'm in. Bought an e-book from Amazon.
BTW if you don't have an e-reader you can download an app from Amazon for your iPad/tablet or laptop to suit
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html...

Goodness me! You are a thoughtful and very kind bunch. You have no idea how much I appreciate you recommending my books!

Fire away with questions any time you like.

Not forgetting Tizzie. This is the Kiwi author read for September.

Anyone ready for discussion yet?

Feel free to begin anytime you like.:)

I received an email just the other day saying my copy is on its way so will join the discussion as soon as I can start reading it :)

I have a question for readers. Who found Tizzie's grammar and word usage difficult to read at times?

Not difficult at all. In fact I prefer characters who speak in their regional/social dialect. How unrealistic would it have been for Tizzie to use 'posh' words in well structured sentences given her character and region.

I think the use of dialect appropriate to a character's social standing and region lends greater authenticity to the story.

That's nice. I was told off in every other post on a writers' board. They were mainly Americans complaining as they would not be as familiar as we Commonwealth people are with a Yorkshire accent.

My assessment agency editors in London also told me to reduce it.

I found it impossible to do because, as you both said, that was Tizzie's voice as I 'heard' it.

Kathleen wrote: "P.d.r. wrote: "That's nice. I was told off in every other post on a writers' board. They were mainly Americans complaining as they would not be as familiar as we Commonwealth people are with a York..."

The Americans should be no less familiar with the accent and dialects of Britain than we of American. They do get to see British TV programmes and British movies! The problem as I see it with Americans is their way or no way - we must all change to their way, yet I have gotten no interest or desire to change to their way ya'll. They seem to be a very insular people in many respects. I'm surprised you haven't been asked/told to alter your spelling!

It surprises me the editors are asking for less dialect. Read any of the big seller historical fiction set in England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and for that matter USA, and you will copious conversations written in dialect - Edward Rutherfurd, Ken Follet, Sharon Kay Penman etc. etc. I am reading one at the moment set in Baltimore that contains many Americanisms and passages written in French. It all adds to the authenticity.

I wonder if Harry Nicholson (Tom Fleck) and Murdo Morrison's (Roses of Winter & The Taste of Dust) editors told them the same thing. Their books were very much written in dialect, as are the Jennifer Worth's books of the story of her life in midwifery.

Just before I tuck my soapbox back under the bed, Kathleen also said But still, how hard can it be to read something a little different to the norm?!

Exactly, and isn't reading, whether it be fiction or non-fiction, intended to contribute to your all round education as much as it is to your entertainment? Once you were encouraged to consult a dictionary when you came to a word in your reading that you didn't know the meaning or pronunciation of. Now you don't have to carry a range of dictionaries - you've got Google who will give you definition, place in grammar, say the word out loud, and translate! Couldn't be more simple.

That's all folks.
Soapbox put away until next time.

Now, which old dialect is that, Kath?
My maternal grandmother used a Dales dialect from one part of the Dales, but I lived down in the West Riding with several other dialects in between.

I loved the fact that a yat was a gate with Gran but a slap in the Riding.
"Sneck oop or I'll thwaite thee" caused real problems!

When I published stories in the US journals the literary, university ones did not alter spellings or idioms although I was asked to put a little glossary at the story end several times.

However pop fiction stuff was always either sent back with a note to write proper English or sent back radically altered so I would refuse to allow it to be published.

I know Terry Prattchet had a terrible time with his first book being so altered for the US market that it did not make sense. Fortunately he refused to let the other books be published there unless they left them alone and as he had just reached cult status in the US they left him alone.

But Reg Hill's Dalziel and Pascoe books about the Yorkshire police men were cruelly altered. In the novel I bought in Japan we had Dalziel saying ‘gotten’ and ‘likely that’, even in one instance claiming the villain had 'pled the fifth'. Really disgraceful.

I have a pile of US written, set in 19thC UK novels to review and I really want to let rip and roar ‘Do your bloody research properly’ but they always do superficial research. This lot do not understand the class system, servants or how speech betrayed your class and upbringing. And one book had winter sleigh rides, coffee drunk all day, terrible errors like the newspaper being the London Times. I was screaming. I wouldn’t mind so much, might even laugh, except the reviews at GR here talk about her good research!!!!!!!!!!

I'm thinking of the popular American book, The Help. At times I struggled with the dialect, but the way I saw it, that was my problem, not the author's. Even the movie was a challenge.

Spent time in North America so didn't find southern speech in 'The Help' a problem, Angie, but it does mean your ear has to tune in. It's like going to Asia and getting used to what sounds, at first, like a high pitched shrieking babble. After a while you do not notice the different sounding speech.
Does anyone else chuckle at the ‘translations’ put on TV when a person with an accent of some sort speaks?
And yes you are so right, Angie, about it being something the reader/viewer should regard as a mind expanding challenge!

I love the dialect words, Kath, which are so different within such small areas. Yes, I'd forgotten the Norse influence, then the Saxon. Would explain yat, thwaite, scunner etc.!!!

Fascinating isn't it?
So how did a thwaite become a smack across the ear?

A sneck is the door latch which you click open with your thumb, sneck oop therefore is logically shut up!

And often families who had lived long in one area had their own words too.

Do you know what pobbs are?

This is fun! I shall have to write some more Yorkshire stuff. I miss my maternal grandmother's idioms and voice!

Also updated in the 20thC to porridge of any kind. As in 'Pobs for breakfast.'

brewis is also a word meaning bread soaked in milk for a child's breakfast.

For those who read the book - Who wanted a different outcome for Tizzie?

It always amazes me how people complain about endings so I am chuffed someone is pleased! Thank you, Kathleen.

Did you sort out the password problem, Kath? Sorry not to help but I'm a technophobe and wouldn't have a clue.

Would the Tizzie theme: that it is really hard to take off the rose coloured spectacles and see the world as it is - work in a modern setting? Or would readers think the heroine a blind ineffectual sook?

Kath wrote: "Help and apologies just been asked to confirm my password and I cannot find it what do I do? Kath"

Sorry Kath, been a bit AWOL lately. Hopefully you've already sorted this out, but if not I suspect you are seeing this message when accessing your messages. In the box just above Confirm button is a space to enter your password - the one you sign into Goodreads with. Just enter that and click on Confirm.

You can do it via Facebook if you have a Facebook account and it's set up to link to GR, but it's just as easy this way.
Hope this helps.
Lesley

P.d.r. wrote: "For those who read the book - Who wanted a different outcome for Tizzie?"

Not me, even though it was sad. I think it bought the book to a realistic conclusion, otherwise the story could have just wittered on aimlessly.

P.d.r. wrote: "Would the Tizzie theme: that it is really hard to take off the rose coloured spectacles and see the world as it is - work in a modern setting? Or would readers think the heroine a blind ineffectual..."

Should think you would have an uprising on your hands. In a modern setting the treatment of Tizzie could have been seen as modern day slavery, abuse of women, and cruelty with readers baying for blood - probably yours! So you wouldn't win anyway. Of course on the other hand they could well turn against weak minded Tizzie, blaming her for the way she was treated by her own family!!

No, I think the whole setting and story of Tizzie is meant for HF genre. Anyway, how could it be otherwise, you would have had to have her milking a whole herd of cows in an automated milking shed - nobody has small, hand milked herds now, not even goats. There would have been no atmosphere, she wouldn't have been out in all weathers etc. etc.

The stars are your password which you must have opted to 'remember' earlier - probably when you first logged on to Goodreads and were asked do you want this computer to remember this password.
At least you've got it sorted now ☺

Kath, the discussion threads don't have a time limit in this group, so you are free to post your thoughts on Tizzie any time you wish to. Good to have you on board.

By the way, in case there is anyone in the group wanting to read your book, where can it be purchased?

Hate to say it, Kath, but my IT expert family tell me you should never save your password.

I stumped them by asking how could I remember them all? Should I write them down?

Pdr, Kath, you are right of course. You shouldn't save passwords, nor should you rite them Dow or use the same one for everything. I asked an IT guy at work how he remembered all his having just received that very lecture and he blushed and said he saved them!!

Thank you, Lesley and Kathleen. Yes it is hard to make people see, in a modern setting, how thoroughly nice, kind, gentle, and innocent people, full of goodness, really do find it near impossible to see their abusive realities.

And, of course, you've got the problem of people who do not want to see their reality. In order to live with themselves they have to see things through distorting lenses. That's why I find it hard to write contemporary stories because most people don't want to truly see.

I haven't disappeared :) My copy of Tizzie has arrived and I plan to get stuck into it today :) Will join in the convo soon.

Oh good. Come up with some questions, Erica, please.

Yay I can finally get in on this convo now that I've finished the book :)

P.d.r I thought the dialect was great...to me that kind of attention to detail just adds to the story. Helps to really envelope the reader in the time and the place. So I'm glad you didn't tone it down.

I totally wasn't expecting that ending I have to say. I think the switch of the narration at the end back to Agnes' point of view was clever and really hit home the effect of Mike's silly actions.

At some points I did question whether the Lord and Lady would've bothered so much with Agnes and her development but I think the quaker element gave some reason for this.

But great book. I have to say I used to have such a prejudice against kiwi authors...don't ask me why! But the more books by kiwi authors I read the more I realise you lot are often just as talented as overseas authors.

How long did it take you to write the novel P.d.r?

Thank you for your comments, Erica and Kath.

There was a strong Quaker movement in Tizzie's Yorkshire in the 70s and right up to WWI. There were the Quaker Chocolate factory owners in York to whom Lady Esther was related. They built workers' villages and ran schools and health clinics, saw that workers worked decent hours and had holidays. They hired trains to take workers to the healthy seaside. They even made parks and ran sports clubs. Education was a must up to 14 years and the women were tireless in working for prison reform, hospitals with proper nurses, and education for all, but especially those bright promising children who ought to have some form of higher education so that, having trained as doctors, nurses, or teachers, they could go back to their people to help them. They ran night schools and Sunday schools for mill workers who did not work for them ( which were about education not Christianity) and Sir Charles married Esther in the face of his mother's disapproval and some of his social world's horror! There were indeed land owners who could see that the way out of the depression which last nearly 20 years –roughly 1871 to 1899-was through education and creating new sorts of work. I merely combined it all in Sir Charles and Lady Esther.

Tizzie took 2 years to write and one to edit because of all the moving around and life crises. If I am allowed to get on and write it takes 18 months to produce a decent first draft and six months to edit.

Kiwi? - I was born overseas because of WWII, my mother was a Yorkshire lass but my father was a kiwi!

Pulling Tizzie together from the rough first draft took quite a bit of my Writer's Choice colleagues' help in the form of reading, comments, critiques and rereading. It was emotionally hard to write and pull into shape especially as my UK Manuscript assessors wanted Agnes to die and wanted a whole lot of stuff chopped. Their two experienced publishers’ readers told me to cut the Jane Eyre references, cut the poetry, and cut the dialect.

It was hard not to listen to these well qualified agents' scouts and publishers' editors but Tizzie was a very real character and it felt all wrong their way. Fortunately a brilliant suggestion from my Writer's Choice colleague got the chapters sorted into the diary form of Tizzie's year and I let Agnes top and tail the story. Then it felt right even my assessors said it would never sell to an agent like that! It didn’t so they were correct but the story is true and honest for me as a writer, true to Tizzie and honest in how her life would be.

Really interesting stuff P.d.r sounds like you know Tizzie's world inside out, and that comes through as you feel totally immersed as a reader - a sure sign of a good book :)

Yes, Cadbury originally too. I'd forgotten Saltaire but yes, there was a strong movement by Quakers which spread to other business people about caring for your workers. It made Victorian sense when Quakers pointed out that healthy educated workers were happy and worked well and were loyal. Good workers = good product!

My Lady Esther was related to the Terry family.

Thank you, Erica. Yes, research, research and practical experience. it's why I'm finding the new novel hard to write as there is a section in India and I have never visited that subcontinent. It is really handicapping that part of the novel.

I saw a really interesting programme on TV which I think was part of the Time Team series - certainly narrated by Tony Robinson, about the social history of chocolate making. From memory Cadburys started out making drinking chocolate/cocoa. The village they established was named Bournville - Bournville Cocoa. I thought they were in Birmingham. They made the first Easter Eggs.

Frys were another chocolate making family in Bristol. Not sure when, but they eventually joined with Cadburys to bring us Cadbury Fry chocolate products, including dairy milk chocolate.

Rowntrees were in York and eventually branched out into more of the confectionary making - remember those wine gums, Rolos (yum) and Quality Street toffees - my Nan's favourites.

Interestingly all were Quaker families!

Yep! Quakers, like Roman Catholics, in the early 1800s were limited in what they were allowed to do as they were not 'proper Christians'! They could not be in public service or employed by the govt etc. So they went out and did different things.
Chocolate was new so they could get in there before the establishment.

The Wellington City Library must have taken on board my suggestion and purchased a copy of Tizzie for their collection :)