SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Sorry- I completely forgot to get this thread started! August is already flying by. I’m going to be a little delayed getting this started but not by much. What about everyone else?

Almost done with Trail of Lightning. Next are this one and the Bingo book, Certain Dark Things. I was kind of thinking Bingo book first, and it sounds like that would work for you if you're going to get a late start also.

Yup! That’s exactly what I’m reading now Ariana is Bingo. Certain Dark things seems like it’s going quick so I don’t think this will be delayed too much.

Excellent! Hopefully I can blaze through Certain Dark Things, start Bannerless and Record of a Spaceborn Few, squeeze in Rogue Protocol somewhere, and I'll be caught up!

Haha! Sending positive: “you can do it!” vibes your way. I’ve got Certain Dark Things, this, Kraken, and Ammonite, if that hasn’t been pushed back yet.

Sarah, are you in favor of pushing Ammonite back? I couldn’t remember who was even interested in the BR. I’m okay with it going either way, but if we want to push it back let’s fix it on the calendar before the date gets any closer.

Yes I’d be okay with it Ashley! But either way is fine. I think Bannerless and Certain Dark Things are pretty quick.

I read through the first three chapters of this tonight. I like it a lot. This is definitely different from the average dystopian. The setting feels really unique to me and also at odds with what I thought would be the theme of the novel, so I think this will be really interesting.

I started this yesterday, and I'm also enjoying it.

Ch. 1: (view spoiler)[I like the way there's some remove from "the Fall", so you sort of know that at least people weren't wiped out completely and things are a little more stable than in many dystopias.

I have to say the pain of having a miscarriage when you want a baby so badly is totally heart wrenching. Maybe I'm just feeling too empathetic right now.
(hide spoiler)]

Ariana wrote: "I started this yesterday, and I'm also enjoying it.

Ch. 1:... "

(view spoiler)[Especially if you had to fight for a banner to even get the right to start trying in the first place. (hide spoiler)]

I’m up to Chapter 5 and finding it hard to put down. I’m enjoying the author’s use of storms both (view spoiler)[as a source of adversity and a metaphor. (hide spoiler)]

Through Chapter 4 spoilers:
(view spoiler)[The author presented this argument in a really interesting way- controlling women’s reproductive rights/bodies.. obviously bad.. but not having children until you can care for them... good? I think?! I’m sort of torn up. Also, this is the happiest, quaintest dystopian I think I’ve ever read. Lol. (hide spoiler)]

Sarah wrote: "...Through Chapter 4 spoilers:
(view spoiler)[controlling women’s reproductive rights/bodies.. obviously bad.. but not having children until you can care for them... good? I think?! (hide spoiler)]

Also through Ch. 4: (view spoiler)[Yes! Very interesting to think of reproduction as a privilege and not a right, very different from what we're used to. In principle, it seems very sensible to wait until you can provide for a child before having one. But we haven't yet gotten a glimpse into who decides which households get banners, how many to give out, and that whole process. It's much more problematic to me when I think about (fallible, biased) people making those decisions than if there was some sort of objective measure.

I like how the exposition is worked into the story. No info dumps, it seems very natural.
(hide spoiler)]

Ariana wrote: "Sarah wrote: "...Through Chapter 4 spoilers:
[spoilers removed]

Also through Ch. 4: "

(view spoiler)[Also very true! I’m also wondering how reliable Enid is as a narrator... she doesn’t seem to want a banner, so I’m wondering if it’s downplayed a bit in her eyes because she’s okay with an implant. I wonder how it would sound from someone else’s point of view. (hide spoiler)]

55% (through chapter 8)

(view spoiler)[So a flu epidemic and one big storm caused the whole collapse of the modern world? Not sure I buy into that.

BUT

That’s the first real hiccup I’ve had. I’m sort of loving everything else about it. Vaughn is an excellent writer. She tells her story very organically. (hide spoiler)]

77% part way through Chapter 11, pg 211

(view spoiler)[Tomas wasn’t even that prominent in the novel and this brought tears to my eyes! I’m so sad for Enid- though I half suspected it. (hide spoiler)]

Sarah wrote: "77% part way through Chapter 11, pg 211

[spoilers removed]"

Ahh you're so fast!

Ariana wrote: "Sarah wrote: "77% part way through Chapter 11, pg 211

[spoilers removed]"

Ahh you're so fast!"

I'm sorry! I got started and I just found it very hard to put down. I really loved the setting and the story. How are you doing with the book?

Sarah wrote: "I'm sorry! I got started and I just found it very hard to put down. I really loved the setting and the story. How are you doing with the book?"

Very enjoyable! I just haven't had a ton of time to read, I guess. And I have it as an ebook, instead of audio. I tend to get through audio faster, since I can listen while driving, doing errands, etc.

I'm a little more than half way. I like the main character a lot, and I agree the setting is pretty interesting.

Sarah wrote: "55% (through chapter 8)
(view spoiler)[So a flu epidemic and one big storm caused the whole collapse of the modern world? Not sure I buy into that.

BUT

That’s the first real hiccup I’ve had."
(hide spoiler)]


Totally with you. (view spoiler)[That also struck a sour note for me. I mean, I guess we COULD have a pandemic and also have more storms from climate change... It just seems a little unlikely they'd happen at the same time.

Also, I've found the whole idea of having quotas and being against hoarding pretty interesting. The justification seems to be "before the fall, people took too much, so we only take what we need." So I was sort of expecting The Fall to have been due to overconsumption somehow. But just the flu + storms? It's a little unsatisfying.

I agree with you that's the first thing that sounded off. It's a very fun and engaging story so far. I am a bit more interested in the current investigation timeline vs. the flashback one, mostly because I find Dak a bit annoying, but now he's in both so go figure.

I need to pick up the pace so I can start Ammonite with everyone else in a few days!

P.S. have you read Station Eleven? I don't want to spoil it for anyone who hasn't, but there are some similarities.
(hide spoiler)]

Map of the Coast Road:
http://www.johnjosephadams.com/projec...

That’s really cool! I’ve been wondering what city the ruins were supposed to be. Looks maybe like San Jose?

Ariana wrote: "Sarah wrote: "55% (through chapter 8)
(view spoiler)[So a flu epidemic and one big storm caused the whole collapse of the modern world? Not sure I buy into that.

BUT

That’s the first real hiccup I’ve had. (hide spoiler)]"

To..."

(view spoiler)[That’s also true and I didn’t even think of it. The storms don’t seem to have much to do with the way they live now. I sort of took it for granted I think because over consumption is a problem, but I didn’t try to connect the dots. You’d think they’d be more worried pollution or global warming or something.

This did kind of grate on me through out the novel. I’m just trying to imagine what kind of storm it would take to wipe out all the U.S. It is not a small country- it’s not an island. The climate isn’t the same across time zones or even North to South. I guess if the the flu epidemic wiped out enough people- and we’re talking millions and millions, so that there weren’t enough to continue upkeep of major cities, maybe storms could finish us off but by bit, but I think it’s a stretch. (hide spoiler)]

I have not read Station Eleven- but it is on my list. If it’s not a plot related spoiler I don’t mind. General setting, world details, etc. don’t bother me. I just don’t like the- whodunnit type spoilers, character deaths, that sort of thing. So if it’s related to how that world collapsed share away!

This book feels like it could take place 80 years after Station Eleven. I quite liked it, but it's very different in tone and writing style from this one. Because it takes place (view spoiler)[during and shortly after the collapse (hide spoiler)] (not a spoiler, it's in the blurb, but being cautious for folks who don't even read the blurb), it was much more anxiety producing for me, but it's very well written.

I've actually loved how non-dystopic this dystopia is. Ch. 10 (view spoiler)[Which is why the part in the ruins with the mom and her 3 starving children was so terrible. Ugh, kids suffering and parents struggling in vain to protect them is SO STRESSFUL. I understand why we/Enid needed to see that, but so hard. (hide spoiler)]

I am almost done, probably will finish today!

Sarah wrote: "That’s really cool! I’ve been wondering what city the ruins were supposed to be. Looks maybe like San Jose?"

Yeah, I think that's a good guess, with all the typhoons having changed the geography of the Bay quite a bit.

I was wondering about Fintown... At first I thought maybe Monterey? But if you figure it took weeks of walking instead of days, and a fit adult can probably walk 15 miles a day, it's probably closer to San Luis Obispo.

Ariana wrote: "Sarah wrote: "That’s really cool! I’ve been wondering what city the ruins were supposed to be. Looks maybe like San Jose?"

Yeah, I think that's a good guess, with all the typhoons having changed t..."

I was also thinking San Luis Obispo- so pretty there (at least in pictures-ha!).

I also love how non-dystopic this is! I did finish already- I just didn't post anything because I didn't want you to feel rushed.. lol. Too much to read right now and this one was so lovely.

I do have to wonder how the author feels about (view spoiler)[the women's reproductive rights issue. She almost seems like she'd be in favor of people having to prove they could care for children before having them? Which I get- people who feel that way are definitely out there, and this novel seems to give good voice to the argument. But nothing positive was portrayed about the woman with the three children, while everything about Haven and the surrounding towns seems, peaceful, serene, happy, totally livable. I guess really it's none of my business how she feels in particular, but this book really put me on both sides of it. (hide spoiler)]

Done! This was really fun. Thanks for organizing the buddy read! This would have sat on my TBR forever otherwise, and it was great to read with someone else.

A few thoughts: (view spoiler)[Ok, re: reproductive autonomy... I don't actually think I have anything interesting to say about this. It feels like the age-old question of personal freedom vs. community safety that humans in groups are constantly dealing with. Clearly either extreme is bad.
But we never really find out who gives out the banners and how they decide, so it's hard to condemn or endorse the system out of hand.

Also I'm really confused, if banners are so hard to come by, the population should be shrinking dramatically, right? The birth rate has to be around 2.3 children per woman in order for the population to replace itself, and from the descriptions, it sounds like maybe a woman would have 1 child, if her household is productive enough. This seems like a big issue to me. If they were giving it enough banners for women to be averaging 2.3 kids, they wouldn't be as scarce as they seem.
(hide spoiler)]

Here is what I really need help with:
(view spoiler)[What exactly is so terrible about farming a little more land so they have more surplus? I mean, I get that it was against the rules so Philos was being a dick by doing it when no one else was, but why is it against the rules? If lots of places are just scraping by, this seems like it would be a good thing to have more grain to trade, right? It seems like the answer they give is "we'll need that land for later, don't use it up now". Now, I know nothing about agriculture, but can't you rotate crops, and plant legumes and other nitrogen fixers, and fertilize, etc. and not deplete the soil?
It's just confusing to me that everyone is supposed to be working hard and being productive, but if you're TOO productive that's also wrong. So who gets banners? The people who have the most, but not suspiciously too much? Why not farm as much as you can manage and store the extra for a typhoon-y day? The population has to be a tiny fraction of what it was before the fall.
(hide spoiler)]

Ariana wrote: "Done! This was really fun. Thanks for organizing the buddy read! This would have sat on my TBR forever otherwise, and it was great to read with someone else.

A few thoughts: Ok, re: reproductive ..."

Thanks for joining me! I wish we had had a couple more buddies just because I enjoyed the book and would liked to have shared it with others- but I’m really glad I was able to discuss it with you!

(view spoiler)[I think somewhere in one of the final chapters it’s mentioned that Philos has a say in banners so I was thinking it was the committees who gave out banners- but you’re right. I feel like with the name of the book being Bannerless- it should have gone into more detail about that. (hide spoiler)]

Re: Farming: (view spoiler)[I have family in Ohio who happen to own farm land. They do rotate the crops, but I believe they also let the one field lay fallow for a year- regardless of what the other fields are growing. I also think the nitrogen and fertilizers are probably long gone since the fall, so they are working with straight soil.

However: it sounds like Philos was not, not letting a field go fallow, it sounds like he had planted a whole other field secretly. But again- you’re right, what’s the real harm in planting more crops if you have tillable land that’s not being used, assuming you are treating all your other crops reasonably. This was also a question that I had, and I can’t find a good reason for it other than the morals of this society at this time are: only take what you need. I guess the danger in it is: one family having more then others within a community and thereby earning all the banners. Or- communities farming all the land they can work everywhere and it growing out of control to points of excess, again, depleting the resources.

In regards to the number of kids- I have no good answer for this one, lol. (hide spoiler)]

Ooh, I'm happy to find this old Buddy Read thread! (thanks Anna!)

I have started off slowly with this, but it's not the fault of the book which I am enjoying - both the world and the murder investigation. I have just been reading too many things at once. Now I am free to focus more on this.

I'm through the first 5 chapters (~31%), and I agree with early comments about the way the word is being developed, very nicely done to build it up without info-dumping. Plus I like (view spoiler)[ the two timelines we are seeing so far, it adds more development to the world and the characters, especially Enid. (hide spoiler)]

Sarah wrote: "Ariana wrote: "Sarah wrote: "...Through Chapter 4 spoilers:
"

Sarah and Ariana, I appreciate your thoughts about the banners and (view spoiler)[ women's reproductive rights/choices/privileges. I'm interested to see how this plays out through the story. (hide spoiler)]