THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

This thread is open for members who wish to read and discuss any book or books covering any battle (land, air or sea) of the Second World War.

I'm starting the theme read off with this book by Martin Middlebrook:


Arnhem 1944: The Airborne Battle, 17 26 September by Martin Middlebrook

The at some stage during the month I would like to tackle this new book on Warsaw:

Warsaw 1944: The Fateful Uprising by Alexandra Richie

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I'm starting the theme read off with this book by Martin Middlebrook:


[book:Arnhem 1944: The Airborne Battle, 17 26 September..."

A good book there AR.

I've always enjoyed Martin Middlebrook's books, his book on the Somme got me interested in the Great War.

Learnt something new already in my book. Martin Middlebrook has just been describing the make up of the British airborne units involved in 'Market Garden' and he mentioned CANLOANS which I had not heard of before:

http://www.war-experience.org/canloan/

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Learnt something new already in my book. Martin Middlebrook has just been describing the make up of the British airborne units involved in 'Market Garden' and he mentioned CANLOANS which I had not ..."

I have read about CANLOANS, but don't remember where.

Among other things, I've just researched the 'Canloan' phenomenon in preparation for the sixth book in my 4th Reich Series and being Canadian, found it very interesting By late forty-three the British Army was suffering a shortage of junior officers, Lieutenants and Captains. The Canadian Army at the time had an abundance of qualified young officers and it was arranged between the two governments that Canadians, on a volunteer basis, would be allowed to fill the many vacancies, to bring the British leadership up to strength for Overlord, the Allied invasion of Europe. More than six hundred Canadians took up the challenge, and they performed exceptionally well, many being offered latter promotion within the British ranks.

Just started reading Middlebrook's Arnhem, was surprised at reading about CANLOANS officers. Incredibly, I didn't know about these CANLOANS at all! Which is a bit of a shame, being Canadian myself!

I think it is fair to say that the CANLOAN scheme was not only highly effective as well as being very timely but also in its own small (673 officers volunteered for this scheme) but important way demonstrates the worth of Canada's contribution and the debt Britain owes to her.

There are mentions of CanLoan officers in a number of British regimental, unit and divisional histories as well as in books by authors such as Patrick Delaforce.

The official Canadian History also mentions the Canloan scheme: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/Ca...
(for Canada's war these volumes are both detailed and highly readable)

A more detailed account is in this book: Code Word Canloan by Wilfored Smith

This website is a gem and lists all the men and the units they served in: http://www.war-experience.org/canloan/

Desperate Venture: The Story of Operation Torch, the Allied Invasion of North Africa by Norman Gelb

So far my Sept book isn't very impressive -- too much of a journalistic flavor and rather simplistic. One new tidbit for me, however, was the account of Agency Africa. A Polish army officer, Rygor Slowikowski, under orders from the Polish government-in-exile in London, established and managed an extensive espionage network throughout French North Africa. Not much has been published about it, according to Gelb, but Slowikowski was decorated with an OBE and the U.S. Legion of Merit for his efforts.

That is a bit of interesting information Manray9, thanks for sharing.

I enjoyed this little titbit of information, from my book on Arnhem:

"German soldiers came to be called 'Moffen', from an Old Dutch swear word for uncouth labourers which goes back to the sixteenth century when Westphalian labourers came to work in Holland. (The original word Muff was German - 'a mouldy or musty smell, a grumbler or grouser'.) Girls who went out with Germans were 'Moffenmeiden'...."

by Martin Middlebrook

(Native Dutch language speaker here)

Hi Aussie Rick, that is entirely correct. And in the same fashion Germany was called "Mofrika" during WWII.

By the way, I believe the word "Muff" has similar meaning in the English language, or doesn't it? ;-)

"Muff" has a certain meaning in the English language in Australia and probably in the UK but not too sure about America :)

I will be reading Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway by Jonathan Parshall as September read focusing on battle of Midway... :)

Set up of Ed Offley's, "Turning the Tide" -- Review Part 1:

The Allies -- Canadian, American and British -- had been losing the Battle of the Atlantic for years. Partly, this can be explained by differences in man and material, but by far the biggest driver was technology. Once the Germans abandoned the rule (as they had in WWI) that submarines had to carry off survivors of the ships they sunk, U-Boats became the Nazi's essential tool of asymmetrical warfare. A U-boat crew of 49 could torpedo and sink an entire escort or convey vessel, killing most if not all aboard, suffering comparatively few German losses. This ripped a huge hole in the Allies pool of trained Navy, Wavy Navy and merchant marine sailors--just as important as the ship losses themselves. (Btw, a submarine always is called a "boat" even though its target is a ship.)

More importantly, U-Boats sent millions of tons of vital food, oil and petrol supplies destined for Britain to the bottom of the Atlantic. After a pause some months before, by early Spring, 1943, Donitz's U-Boats were threatening both the starvation of the British nation AND survival the troopships, material, food, necessary for the buildup (on British shores) of Canadian and American troops for Roundup (the canceled 1943 invasion of France) and, eventually, Overlord (the June 6th 1944 Normandy invasion). Something had to be done.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""Muff" has a certain meaning in the English language in Australia and probably in the UK but not too sure about America :)"

I think so too.

Sounds like a decent account so far and you reminded me that I have a copy of the book as well that I haven't read.

Turning the Tide: How a Small Band of Allied Sailors Defeated the U-boats and Won the Battle of the Atlantic by Ed Offley

I'm starting D-Day Through French Eyes by Mary Louise Roberts.

From my Sept book --

:Desperate Venture: The Story of Operation Torch, the Allied Invasion of North Africa by Norman Gelb

The first half of 1942 was a dark time in British operations during WW II. First Singapore fell, then Burma, then Tobruk. These setbacks sparked one British wag to joke:

"Some good news at last!"
"What?"
"Five of our generals were captured at Tobruk."

Ed Offley's "Turning the Tide", Review Part 2:

"The Battle of the Atlantic was the longest and deadliest naval conflict in world history, and the crucial naval battle of the Second World War. For the British, starved by a protracted War with Germany and almost entirely dependent on supplies being rushed by Allied ships, the Battle of the Atlantic was a last-ditch struggle for survival. For the Germans and their enemies across the Atlantic, the battle had more far-ranging consequences. If the Allies could sustain the British war effort long enough to assemble an invading force in the British Isles, they could carry on the fight to the European continent and, eventually, to Germany itself. But if the U-Boats won, Germany would thwart Allied invasion, strangle the British economy, and force the United Kingdom out of the War."

Donitz's Wolf-Pack's were ready, aided by breaks in the British Naval Cypher #1 and the British and American Merchant Marine codes. The British had broken the German Naval Enigma (except for a few crucial black-outs, such as when the German Navy switched to a four-rotor system). Max Horton had assumed British Western Approaches Command in November 1942; Horton was a near genius, and determined to review every doctrine and alter it were something better available.

The book opens with four late-winter 1943 Eastbound convoys: (SC121 &122-slow; HX228 & 229-fast). Each were forced into the teeth of a winter gale. And with multiple U-Boat hunter-groups tipped off and perfectly positioned, it was a slaughter. "'All hell broke loose,' Signalman Third Class John Orris Jackson later said of the night of March 16-17." Twenty one surface ships were sunk; over 82,000 tons of cargo were lost; and, of the 19 vessels stricken in SC121 and HX228 alone, 740 of the 1114 crewman perished. One U-Boat was sunk during the battle (by a Scotland-based B17). For SC122 and HX229 less life was lost (373 sailors), but almost 147,000 tons went to the bottom. This was perhaps the low points in the Battle of the Atlantic.

New Allied technology and tactics trickled, then flooded, in: (1) longer-range Liberator" bombers began closing the dangerous "Greenland Air Gap" where convoys had no air cover; (2) Escort, or "Jeep" carriers slid down slips in American shipyards to be deployed in the mid-North Atlantic, shepherding the convoys--bringing near-continuous air power to their flocks; (3) radio direction finding (HF/DF) combined with new centimeter radar moved from the lab to escort vessels, allowing precise triangulation of nearby U-boats; (4) a Churchillian-inspired spread depth-charge device -- the Hedgehog -- as well as a mathematical analysis of U-Boat turn and dive capabilities, increased the probabilities of kills from escort destroyers and corvettes; and (5) an acoustic homing torpedo -- codenamed FIDO -- that could be dropped from aircraft in the wakes of submerging U-Boats, lessening the likelihood of crash dive escapes.

The next convoys would be better prepared.

Manray9 wrote: "From my Sept book --

:Desperate Venture: The Story of Operation Torch, the Allied Invasion o..."

The first half of 1942 was a dark time in British operations during WW II. First Singapore fell, then Burma, then Tobruk. These setbacks sparked one British wag to joke:

"Some good news at last!"
"What?"
"Five of our generals were captured at Tobruk."

That's a good one Manray9, I like it :)

From my current book; Arnhem 1944 by Martin Middlebrook, on the launch of the massive air armada:

"By coincidence, it was 'Thanksgiving Sunday' for the victory four years earlier of the Battle of Britain. 'Battle of Britain Sunday' as it became known, would be commemorated long after the war, but more than twice as many of the men about to fly to Arnhem would die during the next eight days than the total number of RAF pilots killed in that summer of 1940."

Nooilforpacifists wrote: "Ed Offley's "Turning the Tide", Review Part 2:

"The Battle of the Atlantic was the longest and deadliest naval conflict in world history, and the crucial naval battle of the Second World War. For..."

Thanks for your running reviews on your book, it sounds like a pretty decent account overall. Are you in a position yet to compare it with any other books you have read on the subject? How has the writing been so far?

My theme read is The Longest Siege: Tobruk, The Battle That Saved North Africa.

It will be interesting to see how this issue develops during the battle and how much of an impact it has on the airborne capability at Arnhem:

"It was in the South Staffords' lift that the effects of Lieutenant-General Browning's decision to take his headquarters to Holland were to be seen. An airlanding battalion required fifty-six Horsa gliders, but only twenty-two were available for the South Staffords on his day, while Browning's seemingly unnecessary expedition was flying in thirty-eight Horsas from Harwell. Thirty-four of these would have enabled the remainder of the South Staffords to fly to Arnhem that day and allow the Airlanding Brigade to arrive complete."

Gerald wrote: "My theme read is The Longest Siege: Tobruk, The Battle That Saved North Africa."

A pretty good account, I am sure you will enjoy it. Keep us posted on your progress and any notes of interest.

I have been saving this last book by Cornelius Ryan for some time. The Last Battle

Ryan is so good:

Ryan builds up the picture of a destroyed Berlin and then takes us to the mostly untouched (so far) western suburb of Spandau and the fatalistic humor of the day:

(view spoiler)[ “Die Spandauer Zwerge kommen zuletzt in die Särge” The little Spandauites are last to reach their coffins. (hide spoiler)]

He is a great writer, glad to hear you are enjoying the book Mike.

Here is an interesting account of one glider that had to cut loose and ditch into the sea near the island of Walcheren:

" ... There now followed the curious experience of a German coastal battery, steadily shelling the glider throughout the remaining hours of daylight, but the shells always missing. A British rescue launch, alerted earlier by the Stirling tug, arrived in the evening; this too was shelled but not hit. All aboard the glider were rescued and returned safely to England. Many years later, Captain Tallentire found out why the German shelling had been so inaccurate. The gunners were Russian Armenians pressed into German service. They had deliberately missed the glider and the rescue launch. The Germans executed one of the Armenians after this incident for 'sabotage' and seven more later in the year."

Aussie Rick--not yet. I'd say he's not the smoothest writer, and it helps to have read other accounts of the Battle of the Atlantic (including those written by surviving U-Boat commanders). But April 1943 is about to begin. . .

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Here is an interesting account of one glider that had to cut loose and ditch into the sea near the island of Walcheren:

" ... There now followed the curious experience of a German coastal battery,..."

Thanks Rick an account I'd not heard of before.

Nooilforpacifists wrote: "Ed Offley's "Turning the Tide", Review Part 2:

"The Battle of the Atlantic was the longest and deadliest naval conflict in world history, and the crucial naval battle of the Second World War. For..."

Thanks for these excerpts, I enjoy reading them.

Here is an amusing account from my book covering an incident during the glider landings on the first day of Arnhem:

" ... But I remember one glider hitting one of the few trees on the field; the glider struck the tree directly between the two pilots. We rushed over, expecting to see blood and gore, only to hear one of them saying, 'I told you not to put the bloody coffee down there.' Neither pilot was hurt...."

From my Sept book:

Desperate Venture: The Story of Operation Torch, the Allied Invasion of North Africa by Norman Gelb

You know the old saying about the U.S. and U.K. being two countries separated by a common language? It seems to have applied during the planning of Torch, an operation plagued by misunderstandings and communications problems. A British general wrote:

I received a weighty document from General Eisenhower's Headquarters which I read and re-read and studied until it dawned on me that I did not understand one single word of it. Here was a vast assemblage of words each of which was undoubtedly English, but which in conjunction conveyed to me not one single thing, and I was eventually forced to call for skilled interpretation to have the order put out of American military language into British military language.

Thankfully the situation improved.

That's a great story Manray9, thanks for sharing :)

Nice stories, Rick and Manray9!

I'm planning to join the buddy read as soon as I finish up another book.

OK, MacDonald has been on my shelf forever and I've used it a bit for research but never found time to actually read it. Seems like this would be the time:

bookcover:A Time for Trumpets: The Untold Story of the Battle of the Bulge|182138]

Hope to see you here soon then A.L and Robert :)

From:

Desperate Venture by Norman Gelb

The Allies conducted a global deception and misinformation campaign during the run-up to Torch, but security was often farcical. Troops on a "secret" amphibious landing rehearsal in the Chesapeake Bay were met on the beach by an ice cream truck. Training was delayed by the selection of ice cream cones and Popsicles. During planning in Britain, Ike directed an aide to keep a detailed classified war diary. One page, containing instructions to the Torch commander about the North African coast, disappeared. The loss of the page was discovered during routine microfilming. It was never found, but caused an operational security panic at Ike's HQ. Apparently it wasn't found by Axis agents either.

"Troops on a "secret" amphibious landing rehearsal in the Chesapeake Bay were met on the beach by an ice cream truck. Training was delayed by the selection of ice cream cones and Popsicles."

Brilliant funny, brilliantly home front where locals always seen to know what is going on :)

Just finished D-Day Through French Eyes. Interesting personal experiences. I recommend it.

Thanks for your recommendation Eric, was this the book you have just finished reading:

D-Day Through French Eyes: Normandy 1944 by Mary Louise Roberts

This incident occurred after the very first British assault on the bridge at Arnhem:


Eight men had been wounded. Signalman Bill Jukes witnessed one after-effect: 'A lone figure came running down the ramp shouting, "Stretcher-bearer, stretcher-bearer!" Colonel Frost stepped out on to the road and said to him, "Stop that noise." The man came to a halt in front of him and said in a perfectly moderate voice, "Excuse me, sir, I'm fucking well wounded."'

The Airborne Regiment's war cry of "Waho Mahomed!" reminds me that I have a copy of this book (unread) tucked away in my library somewhere:

Tunisian Tales: The 1st Parachute Brigade in North Africa 1942-43 by Niall Cherry
Description:
Whilst many books have been written on the history of the Parachute Regiment and Airborne Forces in the Second World War, none of them have concentrated solely on the story of the 1st Parachute Brigade in North Africa between 1942 and 1943. Helion and Company are therefore pleased to announce the publication of 'Tunisian Tales - the 1st Parachute Brigade in North Africa 1942 - 1943' by Niall Cherry. 'Tunisian Tales' covers the raising of the Brigade in 1941 and training in the UK before their transfer to the Mediterranean theatre of operations. It also covers the three airborne operations carried out by the Brigade there - Bone, Souk-el-Arba and Depienne/Oudna - in great detail. The book is complemented by over 100 photos many never published before, maps (including newly-commissioned colour maps, and one used by Lieutenant Colonel Pearson when in command of the 1st Parachute Battalion) and coverage of the Airborne Medical Services in the area, besides extensive appendices. This is Niall's third book for Helion following on from his highly successful previous titles - 'Most Unfavourable Ground' and 'Striking Back'. As in his previous works, detailed research has been carried out using official reports, war diaries and veterans' accounts. The book has the full approval of 'Airborne Assault', the Museum of the Parachute Regiment and Airborne Forces at Duxford, and we are delighted that its curator, Jon Baker, has contributed the Foreword. 'Tunisian Tales' represents a notable contribution to new research into the history of Britain's airborne forces. It is being published in a strictly limited edition hardback run of 1,000 copies, each signed by the author and individually numbered.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "This incident occurred after the very first British assault on the bridge at Arnhem:


Eight men had been wounded. Signalman Bill Jukes witnessed one after-effect: 'A lone figure came running down ..."

Reminds of the superb scene and exchange in the film A Bridge to Far when a clearly injured British paratrooper is asking for morphine and the RAMC medic (Welsh if I recall rightly) says morphine's only for the people who are really hurt and the para says but I thought I was and the medic says along the lines of "well you thought wrong".

Geevee wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "This incident occurred after the very first British assault on the bridge at Arnhem:


Eight men had been wounded. Signalman Bill Jukes witnessed one after-effect: 'A lone fig..."

In photos of Arnhem the Brit paratroopers armed with PIATs always stood out to me. Fighting panzers with an anti-tank weapon with an effective range of 100 yards strikes me as a manly endeavor. :-)

Very much so Manray9 :)

Indeed and they are unwieldy beasts and hard to cock in a relaxed environment (tried during a squadron learning day on WWII) so I can't imagine how difficult it would have been under pressure and fire with effect as you say at a very short range against some of the best MBTs and armoured variants faced in WWII.

Here is another amusing incident that occurred during the second drop at Arnhem. A Halifax bomber was hit by flak towing a glider in towards the drop zone. This account is from the pilot, Flight Lieutenant Jimmy Stark:

" ... However, the glider pilot in the Horsa saw the whole incident and started calling me up on the intercom. 'Are you all right?' I replied, 'Yes, I am all right; are you all right?' We kept this up for a few minutes; we were like a couple of 'dolls' at a Women's Missionary Association. Our conversation was brought to a halt by my tail gunner, a laconic Canadian who said, 'There is a f--king great hole in your tail.' Part of the starboard fin had been blown away, but we go to Arnhem safely."