The Expanded Universe discussion

So thought id throw this out there. Was recently watching the last season of the clone wars on netflix with my son. In one of the later episodes yoda travels to "the birthplace if the Sith" and encounters the ghost/illusion of darth bane. Now I'm not all that knowledgable about the Star Wars timelines and what is and isn't canon, but I thought that what was once the "expanded universe" which I believe darth bane fell under was now "legends" and no longer considered canon. However I also thought the clone wars tv series is considered canon, so does this inclusion in the TV series, make darth bane official? I may be behind on this fact but thought I should ask the experts.

Mark wrote: "So thought id throw this out there. Was recently watching the last season of the clone wars on netflix with my son. In one of the later episodes yoda travels to "the birthplace if the Sith" and e..."
My understanding is that because of Darth Bane's appearance in the Season 6 of the Clone Wars it now means that there is a character called Darth Bane. We know he is a Sith and that he died prior to the clone wars. I believe that is about all we know for sure is canon. His appearance doesn't mean that everything in the Darth Bane trilogy is canon.
That said,I'm just going to view anything in Legends that takes place prior to the Clone Wars as canon until anything new contradicts it.

Sounds like a plan, too good of a series/character to get lost in the shuffle.

watched through half of season 1 I think. I couldn't watch more than that even though I have heard rumors that it becomes good later. I count the show as infinites since the little I saw was really bad. Did the people at lucas start saying it was canon or was it after the Disney deal? Seems to me they just made a cheap show to get kids involved, and that's OK I believe, but to call it canon is laughable. nobody would tolerate it if it was a novel.

Definitely got better as the series went on, and the final season that was released on Netflix only I enjoyed the most. I don't know when the final season was released and how that coincides with the EU to Legends development, however, perhaps someone else can shed some light on that.

The problem is that I have read that the process of timeline, continuity and "canon" is very strict as in they have people that governs this at Lucas. This is why we dont have even more continuity errors or timeline issues than expected from a project spanning so many writers, eras and novels. For me personally I count the Novels EU as seperate, as with comics, movies and tv-shows but they do reference events but the unfolding might not be the same leaving the creators space to either make their own decisions about characters. Thats why I dont get mad about the whole movies wont be the same as the old novels, since their not the same thing for me. I might skip to the last season just to see what the fuzz is about, maybe they had more pressure when disney or whoever told the makers that it was canon, i only thought the "Clone Wars" movie was "considered" canon.

Just a reminder, nothing except the 6 movies and Shadows of the empire was considered canon for a very long time. To have a show like this change the mind of Lucas is from my point of view very unlikely, but I can understand that at this point might not care as much as he did before. The question is still if Disney claimed the series to be canon or if it actually was the Old Lucas garde that did it.

I would most definitely see it if I had kids but alone It just doesn’t make sense =D

Ok Mark, this is what i found out on wookipedia.

G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1]
T-canon,[2] or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6].

C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more.

But, this is ofcourse before Disney bought Star Wars. This means that Disney can give us a new canon which tells us that movies and tv-show is on the same level where the level was seperated before. I even thought that Shadows of the Empire was canon like the movies but after allot of reading it might be that its still on the same C-level as any other book. There is a debate whether or not the books "The force unleashed" is higher cannon than C but its just as debunked as shadows, stating that developers use the word canon because its makes people think its more important than the other books and games even though what they mean is C-cannon.

From what I've heard from various Star Wars podcast, Clone Wars TV show and the 6 existing movies are the only canon that exist right now; basically the stuff that has been on screen (minus the Holiday special). Well there have been some recently published short stories in Star Wars Insider about Blade Squadron that are considered canon, but those have come out since the announcement regarding canon and the EU. Obviously, any thing new that comes out will be considered canon.
I'm not sure about Shadows of the Empire. I haven't heard anything specifically about it so I will assume it has not received a special dispensation and been spared the EU excommunication. I'll miss you Dash Rendar - you will always be this poor man's Han Solo.

Jody wrote: "From what I've heard from various Star Wars podcast, Clone Wars TV show and the 6 existing movies are the only canon that exist right now; basically the stuff that has been on screen (minus the Hol..."
Ahem to that. Also ditto for the members of Wraith squadron.Yub, yub commander.
Still its too to know that Dane has been spared the same fate.

Personally I think its good they cut away the EU, novels and comics and start fresh. Firstly because they changed owners and also so that they can start a new continuation where they can take into account all that has been learned from past experience such as how to manage a project of the magnitude, what pitfalls to look out for and so forth. The only problem I foresee is that they start out on an already bad timeline/conitnuity, as in clone wars. I am not speaking from my own experience since I didn’t see the movie and only half of season 1. I’m basing this on what I have heard from rational arguments from reliable people. So I acknowledge I don’t know, but from the little I know I feel its not a perfect start to base a multi formatted, all ages entertainment universe with one cohesive timeline. But I hope they will and the errors that occurs be in the region of human errors and not carelessness.

What about the new book, Tarkin, that is going to be coming out later this year by James Luceno?

Is Tarkin going to be considered 'Legends' or now Canon?

Tarkin is Canon. All books released from here on out, unless stated otherwise, are now officially canon.

@Richard, In my opinion, the show didn't get too much better. There was an episode involving Anakin and a place called Mortis that was really good, but then there was an episode that I felt completely disregarded the Rule of Two. Given, the rule was openly stated in EU, but given that they stayed pretty close to it in the movies, I think they could've afforded the consistency. Hopefully I'm not spoiling too much but for those who know the series, it's the season 3 episode "Nightsisters" involving a plot between Palpatine, Dooku, and Ventress.

Josh wrote: "@Richard, In my opinion, the show didn't get too much better. There was an episode involving Anakin and a place called Mortis that was really good, but then there was an episode that I felt complet..."

Problem with "rule of two" is that its kinda unclear what the rules are coming to the "Darth" title. Zannah gets it in book 2, dont remember why or how. So now they are both darth, just like Maul, Vader, Sidious etc.

"The Darth title was more than just a symbol of power; it was a claim of supremacy. It was used by those Dark Lords who have sought to enforce their will on the other Masters. It was a challenge — a warning to bow down or be destroyed."

So its weird that both apprentice and master would have it, since its like a proclaim that they want the title of master now. But maybe its just a title given by the master to show that the master believes its apprentice to one day be worthy.

But we learn in the book that the Darth title was long ago removed since it destroyed the sith by inner fightings, since if you proclaim yourself Darth it means you will reign supreme. So I dont know, maybe it should be clarified that it means that you believe in the rule of two.

Josh wrote: "@Richard, In my opinion, the show didn't get too much better. There was an episode involving Anakin and a place called Mortis that was really good, but then there was an episode that I felt complet..."

If you're talking about Savage Opress he, like Ventress, technically wasn't a Sith when training under Dooku but simply an assassin. In the same vein, Darth Maul was also trained to be an assassin not a full Sith. Darth Plagueis even let Sidious train Maul while Sidious was still his apprentice. It's safe to say that the Rule of Two is more of a guideline than a strict rule at this time period.

Well, I was speaking more to the fact that Sidious told Dooku to kill Ventress because she was becoming "too powerful in the Dark Side." The entire point of the Rule of Two is to ensure that power continues to those who are worthy: an apprentice becomes more powerful than the master, overthrows him, and then passes on his knowledge to the next apprentice, who becomes more powerful than him, etc. I suppose that Ventress could be an exception since technically she's not a "Darth."

And I agree, Richard, it would make more sense that possessing the "Darth" title would mean that you simply believe in the Rule of Two rather than denoting supreme Mastery.

I feel the rule of two is more about a compromise, between wanting to hold onto power and needing to pass it on when you die. N master wants to be overthrown. They are going to do everything they can to keep it from happening. Only a worthy successor will be able to take it, and a big part of that is making sure you don't seem a threat until it's too late. Someone strong and unable to hide it has no business as a Sith master.

That seems right, from the little knowledge I have from their actual creed. But wasnt for example darth maul as stated before and count dooku aka darth tyranous never really meant to be any kind of successor to sidious? I get that he only use them, as stated before and in Darth Maul-novels that Darth Maul is more or less the dark side in full view and for that reason he wont be more than a great assasin and sabermaster. And dooku feels more like a pawn of sidious to use when he left the jedi order. So is it really ok to do this and still be in line with the rule of 2? Since he did it in empire strikes back, when he tells vader he wants luke alive if so possible.

When Bane dissmissed Zanah it was because he started believing that she would never even try to take on the mantel of master and that the whole lineage would fail because of that. But both plaeguis and sidios are tampering with Banes vision. Which is ok, but should be noted i guess.

I like to think that the book of sith sitting on my shelf would be a reliable source and the next in line for this reading group. However I'm not sure how much I trust it as an accurate representation of the characters who write in the book, including Sidious. My personal theory is that Sidious was using the rule of two the whole time and that his apprentices weren't up to snuff. He then discovered Anakin's power when he was apprenticing Tyranus and saw a golden opportunity. It's possible that he had Anakin in his plans the entire time though.

Also remember in ROTJ that Palpatine WANTED Luke to strike him down, conveying at least to me that he was more concerned with control remaining in the hands of the sith. So there are a couple of possible outcomes then: 1. Luke strikes down the emperor and becomes Vader's apprentice (sith still rule). 2. Luke strikes his father down and becomes Palpatine's apprentice (Palpatine still ruler with one apprentice). 3. Luke strikes down Emperor only to find that the emperor has beaten death through clones (Palpatine maintains absolute power).