Fantasy Buddy Reads discussion

Oct 20th.

In!

I'll be starting a bit late. Probably on Monday Oct 22.

I am starting today but will be slow since I'll be reading it between family events *sigh

9%

Haven't read a highly technical hard SF like this since Seveneves.

I am intrigued with the relationship between Siri and his father. Also (view spoiler)[what happened that he had to become a machine/vampire hybrid?

As for the vampire thing, I don't see why such genetic modif constitute a vampire... So far it sounds like genetic engineering to me. Or maybe it has something to do with the biological aspect that they need regular intake of blood to survive? I hope this is explained later. (hide spoiler)]

Still finishing another book, so maybe starting Monday also.

Hi all,
may I join? a newbie here.

Hehe, of course. Sorry for moving the discussion here, I figure we'll have more parcipants.

I am stuck with this book. 17% and yet hardly aware of what's going on in details.

Finished my other book. Will start a bit tonight.

From the reviews I’m quite excited actually. Sounds like my kind of hard sf novels.

Btw, if I do like it, I’m planning to read the 2nd book almost immediately. Probably in 1st week of November.

Silvana wrote: "9%

Haven't read a highly technical hard SF like this since Seveneves.
..."

Chapter three (14%)

The vampire thing (view spoiler)[was mentioned briefly in pieces. From what I gather, they excavated the vampire from a jar somewhere, and revived it. It was a few thousand years old and said to be extinct so probably it was the only one left. And I think the crew of Theseus was turned by the vampire into undeads (probably by sucking their blood?). (hide spoiler)]

I also got quite confused, especially since the POV often changed with no warning. But I still got the gist of the story I guess, and so far it is quite interesting to me. It is to me a very detailed pictures of what our futures might look like (aside from the aliens/vampires thing).

End of Part I

I’m quite enjoying this book. Can’t say I understand every physics and philosophical concepts or theories thrown in there. But I do enjoy some of the philosophical debates from the various characters. The pacing is also really good. You get to know the aliens bit by bit in every chapter. Siri’s love adventures were also quite funny (view spoiler)[ ... obviously she’d be upset with your little joke with the sperm and the egg 😅 (hide spoiler)]

The aliens so far (view spoiler)[appeared to be quite passive-aggressive. I agree with what one of the characters said that the aliens appeared to be not ready when the humans showed up. Which made me think perhaps they also considered us as hostile to them; thus, the preparations and the warning and the probes to Earth.

I guess I’m in the pessimist camp wrt to aliens. Depending on where we make the contact though. If we found out about them and then we go to their location, I’d think we’d probably be the more advanced species. But if some alien probes showed up in the sky, it’d be probably the end of human species ... (hide spoiler)]

I still don’t understand what exactly Siri’s expertise was. He simplify things??

I agree that the changing pov was confusing, especially (view spoiler)[with Susan James and her multiple personalities. I thought there were suddenly more people on board the shop (hide spoiler)]

Sarasti (view spoiler)[was a real vampire or just a figure of speech as a somewhat insult to people who got vampire like genetic modifications? (hide spoiler)]

Barry wrote: "End of Part I

I’m quite enjoying this book. Can’t say I understand every physics and philosophical concepts or theories thrown in there. But I do enjoy some of the philosophical debates from the v..."

The aliens so far (view spoiler)[ is confusing to me. Lots of description of shapes that I can't quite imagine in my head. A picture or two would be really appreciated, like a picture of the Fireflies, Theseus, Rorschach and the Big Ben. (hide spoiler)]

Siri is probably something like a big data analyst. He processes information of a higher dimension in complexity (I don't know what that mean myself), and simplify it for us plebeians. It's probably something akin to showing a deep earth oil survey chart, to a non specialist it would just be nonsensical piles of numbers, that's why you need a specialist data interpreter. And in that world I think you have like 4D or 5D information, something that us poor 3D people could never hope to understand. So you need someone to flatten that 5D data into 3D so we could process it, something like that maybe.

about Sarasti (view spoiler)[, vampire was said to be a recent split-off from human branch, so near in fact, that they probably don't count as subspecies. So it's probably something like a mutation quirk (that resulted in superhuman predator?). I do not like this whole vampire thing actually. Do we really need vampire when we already have retro-fitted human that is more machine than human already? Why do we need a superhuman predator with IQ a few hundred digits above normal human and super-senses and super-what-else? (hide spoiler)]

End of Chapter 9

Sarasti
(view spoiler)[Yeah, I have no idea why they need a vampire as the captain. And if all vampires are super intelligent like Sarasti or he's an exception.

Reading back the descriptions again, I think he's a real vampire in a sense that they modified his genetic codes with real vampire genes. It's mentioned that he has to take some drugs to keep him from spazzing out whenever he sees cross-like items like windows or something. (hide spoiler)]

The aliens
(view spoiler)[Getting more description of Roscharch now that the crew is getting ready to descent onto Roscharch's surface.

TBH, I kinda like that the descriptions have been rather vague so far. It adds to the mystery and the horror. Based on Susan James and the Gang's interactions, it appears that the aliens are intelligent but not sentient or conscious? That they could create huge terraforming machines, send spying machines to Earth, decode patterns in human languages, but they may not understand the meaning of sentences or phrases. But, so far no physical manifestation. Or at least, no humanoid physical manifestation. I do wonder if those ghostly appearances that Siri has seen a couple of times are the aliens ...

I do hope the aliens turn out to be amazingly weird. Can't wait to read the first physical contact part.

Btw, I think the cover of the book matches the description of Roscharch ... (hide spoiler)]

Siri
(view spoiler)[Hm ... I'm not sure that his job can be referred as "big data analyst". So far he describes his job as being "an observer". If he's the data analyst, I'd think he'd be more proactive in providing suggestions on how to communicate with the aliens. On the other hand, he has half of his brain taken out and replaced by a computer. So, he seems to have the capability to process ungodly amount of information. Better than regular humans. Though, he can't seem to understand physical manifestation of human emotions?

So far I don't quite understand how his role matches with their current mission of exploring the aliens. The other characters have clear roles and supporting skills. (hide spoiler)]

27% and it still feels like jumbled puzzles for me. The crew has had weird conversation topics haha

Agree with you both on the vampire stuff. I expected more exciting stuff but so far it has been rather dull on the vampire front.

Since there were not much going on until now, I could only say it felt like reading Rendezvous with Rama. Maybe because of the 'strange weird object in space' thing.

End of Ch 17 around 67%

You'll get to meet the aliens soon enough @ Silvana.

The aliens
(view spoiler)[Damn, what a spooky "physical first contact" moment between Siri and the aliens. That was pretty scary, though, maybe I'm just a scaredy-cat lol.

But what a creature. Now I know why the title is Blindsight. What an interesting alien. I think the author's background in biology shines. There are complex explanation on various psychology, biology, and language development theories, I think. I don't understand most of them, so I'm just gonna assume everything he wrote, he'd researched them beforehand haha.

As mentioned by the characters, I believe the two creatures captured by the team are not the fully grown aliens. Or even the aliens themselves. Maybe some lesser creature or an animals or their machines or something. They're certainly intelligent. The torture, ugh. But, it's something that anyone would probably do in a circumstance like this.

Which, I think gets to the main discussion that the book is trying to convey : what makes a creature a living creature that deserves the same respect that we give to fellow human beings? Is it just intelligence? Or sentience or awareness or consciousness of being?

And what the heck is Rorschach? Just an alien ship? Or the alien itself? Like a mother to all those creatures? (hide spoiler)]

Siri
(view spoiler)[Ah, finally I understand a bit more of what Siri does for the expedition. He's basically the chronicler. Only he can also chronicle people's intention or the reasoning behind various decisions made by the crew members.

However, it's weird that he has this ability to understand people's emotions (empathy), but can not seem to hold stable relationship. Case in point, his misadventures with Chelsea. Just total miss by Siri in every flashback so far. (hide spoiler)]

Szpindel
(view spoiler)[Out of all the crew members. he and Robert Cunningham are probably the two that I couldn't imagine how they live. Having the extra sense of touch to analyze anything they touch right to the genetic baseline ... Must be a super weird to do daily activities ...
(hide spoiler)]

Silvana wrote: "27% and it still feels like jumbled puzzles for me. The crew has had weird conversation topics haha

Agree with you both on the vampire stuff. I expected more exciting stuff but so far it has been ..."

I actually felt like reading Annihilation by Jeff VanderMeer actually. A group of scientist off to unknown land, anti-social protagonist, hallucinations and questioning one's sanity. Yup, all too similar. Except that I think this one is heading more toward the science stuff rather than the weird stuff.

@Barry

The aliens (view spoiler)[is spooky indeed. I imagined them as a giant starfish actually. Agree, I love all the biology explanation and that bit about how to learn alien's language is a definite eye-opener. I wonder if there is really no other more peaceful way to learn it.

I do think they are not a fully intelligent being, probably something like an ant or bee? Rorschach might be the swarm or the termite mound, the collective emergence.

In game theory, there is no respect. Only win or lose. And when the stake is the survival of humanity, conscience get shoved under the table I suppose. Not that humanity on earth also had such stellar records of respecting fellow humans and treating them as equals. Aliens learning human history would quickly surmise that we are a barbaric creatures bent on enslaving even our own species. (hide spoiler)]

Siri (view spoiler)[apparently is a chronicler for the sake of those people on earth. So he is something like the journalist I think, sending news report every now and then.

He actually pointed out to Pag that he doesn't have empathy. Since empathy is the ability to feel what other people would feel in that situation, while he himself is unable to feel, he only knows.

Siri is probably autistic with poor social skills and aversion to human contacts. It is any wonder that he could sustain a relationship with flesh and blood woman at all, let alone one with conventional relationship preferences. Also, he probably subconsciously always tried to maintain a safe distance, since to be an observer he must not be involved with the subjects. He did say he was so good at his job, he did it without even realizing it. (hide spoiler)]

Cunningham (view spoiler)[did say he had to do it if he want to keep being professional worker. Humans had to compete with super AI and vampires after all. It is any wonder that there is any job left for human to do at all. (hide spoiler)]

@Anny, Annihilation is an even better analogy. I only watched the movie though, have yet to read the book.

Silvana wrote: "@Anny, Annihilation is an even better analogy. I only watched the movie though, have yet to read the book."

I'd say the book is much better than the movie. The movie doesn't really make sense, the book at least explained why they only sent five grunts with no modern technology and no back up.

End of Part II (87%)

What did I just read? Sarasti's experiment (view spoiler)[what does it even mean? Does Sarasti assaulting Siri is supposed to mean something? How do you deduce scramblers' non-sentience from that? And what was Siri supposed to believe and what was he supposed to convince others on earth? (hide spoiler)]

The captain (view spoiler)[was the decision maker since day one wasn't it. So the hierarchy goes something like AI > Vampire >>> humans. Huh, wonder why AI haven't wiped out humans yet. (hide spoiler)]

Sarasti(view spoiler)['s death was totally unexpected, and given the role the captain turned out to have, what was the point of this character anyway? Just to add some wildness and exoticness to our otherwise rather bland crews? (hide spoiler)]

Done.

I had the same reaction at end of Part II ... what the f just happened?

Sarasti’s experimment
(view spoiler)[My understanding is that the experiment was to remind Siri that there’s an older part of his brain (the brain stem), which should help him “sense” the aliens. The aliens were able to manipulate rational senses, for example by manipulating the way our more evolved brain process information from our eyes. Maybe that oldest part of the brain is immune to EM attacks that are used by the aliens ...

I’m also confused by Siri needs to be the messenger. Why can’t it be one of the others? Amanda Bates seemed to be a perfect candidate to me, because of her military background. Though, I guess Sarasti/the Captain needed her to fight the alien for the last time and to ensure at least one of them would survive. Thus, I guess Siri got the role, perhaps as a last resort option. I have no idea why Sarasti needed to do what he did to Siri. The crew eventually managed to discover the true nature of the alien. So, attacking Siri didn’t seem to be a necessary step for him to understand what’s going on.

I think the alien was able to “poison” and manipulate Susan James and the Gang, so James did what she did at the end with the navigation system. But, why wasn’t Bates “contaminated”? Didn’t one of the aliens got into her body in their first visit to the Rorscharch?

And what about Siri? He was the first to “see” the “ghost”? So, one of the aliens had been present since the very beginning? (hide spoiler)]

Sarasti
(view spoiler)[in part III it’s mentioned that Siri guessed vampires like Sarasti began to reassert their dominance over Homo sapiens. Which made it even more baffling that the Captain thought its better to kill Sarasti. Unless, I guess the Captain and Sarasti had figured out very early that it’s a suicide mission. Thus, rather than giving a free sample for the enemy, it’s better for Sarasti to die, ensuring that the aliens would be surprised when the other vampires eventually come looking for them. (hide spoiler)]

Up to the last 30-40 pages, it was gearing up to be a solid 5 Star book for me. Plausible future world based on actual scientific experiments. Sufficiently weird aliens and this point is super important imo. Pretty unique characters. Interesting debate on consciousness vs intelligence. But, the Sarasti experiment thing ... that part sorta almost ruined the whole thing for me. Maybe I’m nit smart enough to understand it 🤷‍♂️. Still, overall it’s a solid hard SF with excellent horror and first contact elements.

I think a lot of this story was exploring what consciousness is. I wondered quite a bit what the point of the 'vampire' inclusion was, and I think, at the end, it is about (view spoiler)[ looking at an evolutionary predator-prey relationship. Because there wasn't anything super strong for Watts to draw on, he had to resurrect the vamps, which did give a chance to comment on projects where people are trying to resurrect ancient species based on samples of preserved DNA. I don't have the book any longer, but I think there were parts where the crew was inhibited and afraid to confront Sarasti because of that 'hindbrain/evolutionary brain' doing the reacting. (hide spoiler)]

Do people's copies of the book have the bit at the end by Watts where he talks about where his ideas came from?

Barry wrote: "Done.

I had the same reaction at end of Part II ... what the f just happened?"

So the experiment (view spoiler)[is to revert Siri back to his reptile brain, his non-sentient state so to speak, and near-death experience is one way to trigger that response. Made sense, and why Siri? Maybe because he is a synthesist, his job is to convey information to commoners, baseline humans. So no one else is more perfect for this job than Siri. I guess the experiment is necessary for Siri himself to believe in the nature of non-sentient being, otherwise he will just deny, skirt around or trivialize it. (hide spoiler)]

Bates(view spoiler)[ was contaminated too, I believe. In fact, I believe Rorschach hacked onto Bates and by extension her grunts, then made one of the grunt fried the scrambler that they then ended up taking to Theseus (the presumed dead one). In the final battle, that dead one sprang to life and ended up allowing the other two to escape and managed to secure Cunningham too. If it was intentional, it was a brilliant ten-steps-ahead move made by Rorschach. (hide spoiler)]

Sarasti(view spoiler)[ I think was killed by a rogue grunt, again, this one might be the one that got hacked by Rorschach. I don't think the Captain would kill Sarasti, as he was a much more useful pawn compared to the other crews. After Sarasti died, the Captain take over his corpse, expressly for the sake of chugging Siri into escape pod I think. (hide spoiler)]

Siri (view spoiler)[possessed a blindsight, said Cunningham. Based on his data and knowledge on BigBen and Rorschach, somehow, his brain was able to deduct the shape of its inhabitants. His brain then tried to communicate this information to his consciousness, resulting in a kind of hallucination I guess. (hide spoiler)]

Yea the last part was baffling and not enough explanation was given I think. But overall I enjoyed the book, I will be looking for the sequel I think.

@Carol Do you mean the Notes/References section? Yea, I really enjoyed reading that part too. I've read Oliver Sacks' books, so I already knew about some of the mind sleight mentioned in the book (view spoiler)[(believing that some part of your body is not yours, finding God, hearing voices, free-will illusion) (hide spoiler)]. I am sorely tempted to read Met-zinger's Being No One, but if even Peter Watts said that it was the toughest book he ever read, I am not confident I have enough grey matters to understand that book.

@ Carol : good point. (view spoiler)[There were a lot of discussions on how the crew viewed Sarasti as the ultimate predator. And the conversations with respect to the aliens eventually touched the issue of whether the aliens are hostile; thus, acting as the predator and humans as the preys.

Having said that, it's baffling that at the end the Captain eventually admitted that it was the one who was controlling Sarasti right from the very beginning. That point I still don't understand. (hide spoiler)]

Yeap, my copy also has the notes at the end of the book

@ Anny re: Sarasti
(view spoiler)[At the end, I wasn't sure whether the grunt accidentally or "accidentally" killed Sarasti. But, I think the Captain would like all crew members to be dead anyway to ensure that the aliens wouldn't get free samples and run experiment to find out further about humans. (hide spoiler)]

So, I'm planning to read Echopraxia in 1st week of November. Anny, how's your schedule looking?

Reached 51% and still could not enjoy the book despite more things happening. I just could not get into the atmosphere at all despite constantly trying to phase my reading. The multiple personality character really threw me off as well. The one thing that kept me going so far is my curiosity about the aliens, but I could not care less about the characters. At this point, I am not sure if Watts' writing suits me. *shrugs

@Barry the Captain (view spoiler)[I don't think aim to kill all the crew members, it didn't kill Bates and James right? Plus, Cunningham is already abducted by the aliens, dead or alive unknown. If the aim is to make sure the aliens got no samples, the captain surely would've make sure all crew dead before final battle. That would also serve to eliminate James which hijacked the ship control. But then again, I guess that simply showed that the Captain is not omnipotent. (hide spoiler)]

On Sarasti, (view spoiler)[I think since the Captain is smarter than Sarasti, all decision was basically made by it/the machine. But the human crews wouldn't like that so they pretend that the decision maker was Sarasti the vampire. (hide spoiler)]

1st of November? I still haven't got the book yet, so I will let you know later.

@Silvana The writing is indeed quite convoluted, not for everyone maybe. For me I enjoyed the tidbits about psychology and biology more than the plot and the adventures. Would you be interested in diatribe on alien/human biology? If yes, then look forward to it :)

The alien is totally worth the wait IMO.

@ Anny : let me know if you can get it on time. My schedule is still pretty flexible, so I can switch around a coupleof books.

@Barry No worries, got the book already. So Echopraxia 1st Nov, ok.

Just starting this tonight! Thanks Barry for bringing us together on this!

60% and I decided to stop reading, sorry guys. It was just too much effort, still.

@ Silvana : ah, sorry it’s not for you. The aliens are pretty amazing though. Sufficiently weitd to qareant the title.

@ Jess : you’re welcome. It’s always more fun to be able to discuss some books together hehe. Me and Anny will be around for Book 2 if you wanna join us too.

Vampires?!?! I guess I had totally forgotten what this book was about after I voted for it! What book actually won?

Im definitely getting a lot of Alien vibes so far(only on page 33 HC edition).

What in the heck does he mean by saying Siri could tell Isaac’s favorite color was green by the way his hands moved. Must be some hint at a latent ability Siri must have?!

Siri's specialty is reading the topography. Thus, by reading Isaac's body language, facial topography and body topology, he can deduce facts about Isaac that the person himself didn't explicitly said. I think I read somewhere that we actually express ourselves more by our facial and body language (including tonal shift, etc) rather than by what we said.

Anny wrote: "Siri's specialty is reading the topography. Thus, by reading Isaac's body language, facial topography and body topology, he can deduce facts about Isaac that the person himself didn't explicitly sa..."


Thank you!!!

So Im still in Part 1. Im hanging on by a thread! I figure ill give it until the end of Part 1 to try to finish this. Everything is too much physics and i dont even know what! Hard to read and ejoy!

I really wish I hadn't returned this to the library. I'd like to read it again. Sadly, I only found this thread through Silvana after I had finished. I think the end was confusing enough that I would have liked to discuss it with you all.

@Anny, I'm with you on the biology/psychology being the most interesting --to me--aspect of the book. I think Watts did a fine job of capturing a really alien potential. So many times, aliens are either humanoid or insects.

@ Carol : that’s what I really liked too, despite the confusing ending and many new words that I didn’t even know existed😅. The aliens are just awesome. I was afraid that the aliens would be humanoid, but fortunately I think Watts’ background as biologist really helped.

@ Jess : don’t try to understand all the physics, but do pay attention when the characters are talking about psychology or neurology. Those are more relevant in understanding and enjoying the story.

I’m currently reading Echopraxia, on page 70s. Anny are you joining?

Barry wrote: "@ Carol : that’s what I really liked too, despite the confusing ending and many new words that I didn’t even know existed😅. The aliens are just awesome. I was afraid that the aliens would be humano..."

So I reached Part 2. Im basically speedreading this. Ots more understandable to me that way. Goin to try to stick it out!

@Carol what about jumping the wagon and starting Echopraxia instead? Haha, it will be no less confusing and there'll be plenty to discuss.

@Jess keep at it! The actions sometimes got really confusing but well, I guess that's part of this book's charm? I found I need to reread certain parts a few times to understand what I read.

@Barry am around 30% in, it gets even more confusing than book 1 I guess. Burk (view spoiler)[was caught between vampires with undead underlings and religious science sect? Then suddenly they were attacked by baseline humans with nasty viruses?? Then something else attacked and they suddenly escaped into space??? (hide spoiler)]. Thank god we have Burk's POV, at least his mental capacity is the same as us baselines. LOL

Echopraxia around 30% too

Re what’s going on in Part I
(view spoiler)[From what I understand, there’s an ongoing war between the Vampire vs the Zombies. The Zombies are the religious sect. Although, I don’t understand why those two sides are fighting.

I also don’t understand why Col Moore claimed that they now have a common enemy, the baseline humans. I’d think the baseline humans have very little chance against either of them, but especially the Vampire. Also, I’d think the common enemy would be the aliens from Firefall.

I think the attack on the compound is deliberately vaguely explained. I think the Zombies released a virus that basically killed all those acolytes, no idea why. Maybe through the food. But, why didn’t it kill Bruks ... mo idea 🤷‍♂️.

Furthermore, I’ve no idea who’s pursuing them deep into space and for what reason, unless, the aliens have infiltrated Earth far longer before the event of Firefall. It’s not implausible they could do that.

Hopefully by the end of the book, I won’t keep listing out things that I’ve no clue on lol.😅
(hide spoiler)]

Liana
(view spoiler)[
Is a zombie, right? (hide spoiler)]

@Barry uh, I don't think that's quite right.

Zombies (view spoiler)[are the vampire's/Valerie's underlings. They are the black figures that Dan saw from his camp and they are on their way to attack the religious sect/Bicamerals. Why the vampire attack the sect is never explained and just tossed aside in favor of common enemy. The zombies then escaped to space along with our happy crews. They are in a way our allies, as long as the vampire is too. (hide spoiler)]

The religious sect, the Bicamerals (view spoiler)[are a hive mind, they are able to exceed computational limitation of baseline humans by way of tantric rites or something like that. I think the discussion about science vs religion and that what separates them is only which one deliver results is pretty interesting. (hide spoiler)]

The enemy (view spoiler)[is not the baseline humans, I think. That's why the Bicamerals and Valerie did not retaliate against them. Moore said that they're probably just cat-paws, manipulated by something else to attack them. The Bicamerals made it top priority to escape to space instead, knowing that there are greater threats out there. (hide spoiler)]

The attack (view spoiler)[on the compound was made by the baseline humans. They released airborne viruses specifically targeting the Bicamerals, that's why Dan survived, because he was just a baseline human. After they launched into space, something else attacked them again, breaking the spokes etc, nearly killing Dan again. (hide spoiler)]

The aliens (view spoiler)[supposedly only took pictures or data during the Firefall, then the things themselves burnt in earth's orbit. But we might never knew if they in that moment managed to hack into Earth's network somehow, that might explain the baseline humans attacking the Bicamerals. (hide spoiler)]

Liana (view spoiler)[ is a specialized synthesis, her job is specifically to translate the mumbo jumbo of the Bicamerals into data human can understand. She said normal synthesis (like Siri) is like a rat (omnivores/able to translate anything), while she is a koala (specialist/wired to translate only the Bicamerals data). (hide spoiler)]

Finished. I really have nothing to say about it. Ugh.bwanted to liek it, but really obhoerred the writing style.

Anny wrote: "@Barry uh, I don't think that's quite right.

Zombies [spoilers removed]

The religious sect, the Bicamerals [spoilers removed]

The enemy [spoilers removed]

The attack [spoilers removed]

The ali..."

Yeah, I was confused for the first 30% of the book or so. But, then, it was explained bit by bit. Who's fighting against whom.

I'm done with the book actually. Not as good as Blindsight. But the alien remains quite awesome. The vampires continue to confound me as to their motives.

The aliens
(view spoiler)[are the same ones as in Blindsight, I believe? No mention of any other alien species. But, how did it get to Icarus? Was Siri infected by the alien at the end? I think this book implies that Siri was infected and the alien used his transmission to Icarus to infect Icarus as well? So, this alien could transmute itself into a signal? I'm not clear on the relationship between radio waves and atom and quantum physics hehe...

I think the point of the whole series are humans are pretty much doomed if the world is going to hell. Eventually what would survive are unconscious intelligence similar to what the aliens are in this series?

Also, an interesting way to discuss God and free will, by using the alien as a way to question free will. Indeed, human behaviors are affected by how our brains are wired. So what is free will? Can we say everything that happened in this book was because of free will and random occurrences? How much did the alien-infestation affect Bruks' and Jim Moore's actions? What about our real life? Do we have free will? Although, I'm also not clear on why the Bicamerals and even the Vampires seemed to want to commune with God? (hide spoiler)]

Im not reading #2, but there are zombies now?!? Wtf

Yeap. The zombies I dunno. But the vampires at least sort of make sense to be included in the 2 books.

Speaking of aliens ... weird traveling space boulder could be alien ship. Although, I'm not buying it at this time, but this reminds me of Firefall.

@Barry

Siri (view spoiler)[I'm also not sure what became of Siri, but anyway he was doomed since the Icarus went kaput (no telematter to guide him back anymore). Not sure if the transmissions that the Colonel received was from hacked Siri or from the aliens itself. (hide spoiler)]

Alien (view spoiler)[I think analogically they sent a DNA instructions over the transmissions and it began to build itself in Icarus atom by atom. Not sure what happened to Portia after Icarus was destroyed. (hide spoiler)]

Bruks' ending baffled me. (view spoiler)[Since when was he infected by something else/alien? What did it want to do and why was he in the end became the salvation of the vampires? (hide spoiler)]

I think I got more excited reading the notes and references more than the ending. Sigh, it's just too confusing at too many junctions.

I'm thinking of reading The Colonel too, since it's available in Tor anyway. Hopefully it can shed some more light on this mind boggling series.

Hello all!
sorry late in joining the discussion, I just finished Blindsight, and I read the discussions already in book 2 and mentioning book 1.5.

I still overwhelmed by the book, and found the reviews that I read already mentioned everything that I want to say. Haha.

TLDR: a lot of science, tricky plot twists, it needs more satisfying end.

A satisfying end is definitely what you won't get from Watts' books. Same for the second book. I think I would be proud if I can understand the general plot, not even mentioning the supposedly relevant details that I can never understand. lol