What is Life without Books discussion

When wwe finally get reading the book this thread will be for discussing it. The launch date has been pushed back to the 22nd.

Sorry everyone I planned to start the book today but had to clean my house. I will start it tomorrow and start posting in the thread. If you have something you'd like to talk about post it here and I, and I hope everyone else, will respond.

Has everyone started the book? Were you aware of the way Native Americans were treated in the early 1900's? That every little piece of their identity was forbidden and beat out of them? I tend to think we were civilized by the 1900's until I think about this disgraceful piece of U.S. history. How do you feel about it?

I'm reading chapter 10 now. What do you think of the stereotypical references from newspaper articles? The bloodthirsty native mentality?

Why do you think they decided to put all Native Americans in one company?

Earlier in the book it discussed the French reaction to Native American soldiers. Do you think they were more open minded and less discriminatory than the people and government of the U.S. What about the artist picking a Native American for a portrait of a typical American soldier?

Quote from the book:

It was the high-powered men who pitted ordinary men against each other.

That's the truth in most wars isn't it? At least one man in power crosses a line and other countries have an obligation to respond.

The civil war was started by rich plantation owners in the south but it was the poor country boys who had to do the fighting and dying. They fought for "states rights" but it actually boiled down to fighting so rich powerful men could continue to enslave other human beings.

WWI - I've heard and read so many different opinions on what was the real cause of the war. Yes it was the assasination of the heir to the Austrian thrown that was blamed but I've also read things that put the blame on the Russian Tsar or the German Kaiser. Anyone have a better understanding of this war? I'd sure like a good explanation. I just looked for one and got even more confused. Did you know Japan was part of the allied forces?

What do think about Germany trying to get Mexico to attack the U.S?

Here is a link about code talkers. One of the things I love about using a kindle is the ability to search Wikipedia or the net after highlighting text.

http://www.historynet.com/speaking-in...

For his valor, Leader received a Purple Heart, two Silver Stars, the Distinguished Service Cross, nine battle stars and two individual awards of the Croix de Guerre, France's highest military honor.

This is Otis Leader a main character in the book.

On October 8, 1918, Private Oklahombi was at St. Etienne, France. He and 23 other soldiers attacked an enemy position and captured 171 Germans while killing some 79 more. They held their position for four days while under attack. [2] Oklahombi was awarded the Silver Star with Victory Ribbon, and the Croix de Guerre from France's Marshal Henri-Philippe Petain. At the time the members of the Choctaw nation were not formally U.S. citizens.

I am only on Chapter 5 of the book and so far I am loving this! I have read many things on WW1 and the code talkers but this has given more insight. I truly hate seeing what our ancestors did to people. I knew a lot of what they did to the Native Americans as I am obsessed with history and as for how it started Patricia take everything you have found and those are all the reasons it started. War does not truly start with one issue. It is many that issues that build up to it. The topping on the cake was the assassination.

This really is a fantastic book. Otis Leader should be a name everyone knows. The number of medals he was awarded is far above normal. As I read and looked up facts about these men I became more impressed with what they accomplished. Juxtapose that with how the government treated them and it's almost unbelievable. 20% of male Native Americans enlisted to fight and they were banned from citizenship at that time.

Michelle I agree there are many reasons that lead up to war but WWI answers are really elusive. I've read a lot about it but it isn't like there was a Hitler figure to point at. It had to have been the most uncivil war ever fought with the trench warfare, no man's land and gas attacks. It was like being a rat in a maze and there were a million things that could kill you other than bullets.

Sarah really did a good job showing the reader how exceptional these men were. It's a piece of history that should have a bright light shinning on it.

These men weren't officially recognized until George W. Bush was President. It's really pathetic. By that time they were all dead. Otis Leader and Joseph Oklahombi should have been awarded The Medal of Honor decades ago and still haven't been.

I asked the question about putting them all in the same unit. A lot of people don't know that the military was segregated through WWII. Units were divided by ethnicity. The most decorated unit from WWII was an American Japanese unit in Europe. While they fought their families were in internment camps dying from disease and hunger in the U.S.

I love this country but we don't have the civil rights record we'd like to believe we do. History taught in schools glosses over these facts.

If you read this book and enjoyed it I recommend reading Dee Brown's Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee. It's one of my top ten favorites. It's nonfiction but easy to read. It will make you question everything you thought you knew about the Indian Wars in this country.

Oh I have read that book and to be honest I have always questioned every thing that schools teach. We as a culture have glossed over a lot of our history and made it sound better than it was. Our country has been segregated longer than any other country I do believe. I love this country also but the way we act today I am ashamed. It is truly sad that people of different color or race still have not gotten the respect they deserve by helping in the military and they were not even given the right as citizenship. They were here first. I think we both could go on and on over how unfair our country has always been and will be till we all do something about it!

I was active duty Navy for 8 1/2 years. The one place everyone is equal today is the military. The only ethnicity in the military is Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine and they are all equal.

I lived in Connecticut when the Pequot tribe built Foxwoods and the Mohegans built The Mohegan Sun. They are world class casinos. I have respect for Native Americans because they don't use they way they were treated as an excuse. If any group in this country deserves that right it's them. Now the Pequots and Mohegans help support less fortunate tribes who can't build casinos because their location is too isolated.

This is a country where you have to seize opportunity. The Native Americans have proven you can have great success if you don't wallow in the mistreatment of your ancestors.

There is a lot of history that is shameful but it shouldn't be used to excuse present day lack of success. I firmly believe a lot of social programs like welfare hold people back from success today. Welfare was not meant to be a lifestyle or the family business. A girl I grew up with ended up divorced with four kids to support and no child support. When her kids were old enough she returned to work and paid every penny back to welfare. That's how it was meant to work.

I don't know what the answer is to some of our problems but I do believe the left props up these programs to retain voters. Rather than empowering people it keeps them poor and reliant on the government.

I graduated from college but got a better education from the military. I think it's one of the best ways for people to find advancement. The best part is it costs nothing and you're paid to learn. I'm pretty much middle of the road politically but tend to lean right because the right supports and respects the military. To me that is the most important thing when I vote because military life is not easy and those who voluteer deserve a lot more than they get.

Thank you for your service. My daughter is going into the military after Christmas. I told her that right now she isn't going anywhere with how she is living and the military will give her training and pay her and she will be able to travel the world and not have to pay for it. Its the best training that anyone can get.

I have to agree on this matter whole heartedly with you. They have never used the mistreatment they have suffered to treat others like poo or used it as an excuse.

After my divorce I had to use welfare to get by for a bit but made sure that once I could get off it I did. I now have a great job and I am going to college and making a better life for us.

I agree with the fact that people use it as a crutch. I remember when I think it was in Alabama that the food stamps didn't get put on the cards and tons of people freaked out and it was all over the news. I felt a little bad for them.

I don't know the answers either but something has to budge as our country is going down hill. I don't think its fair that our military doesn't get what they deserve for putting their lives on the line. I would love for politicians to serve in the military and see how rough it is before they get to serve for us as a politician. I know that sounds harsh or wrong but they keep taking away from the people are protecting us!

Tell your daughter to choose a good job. I went enlisted even though I had a college degree. I worked military intell. When I got out I worked in insurance law. I only took basic business law classes in college. The training in analysis and technical writing gave me the skills to read and intrepret legislation and write policy language to comply. It was a great job.

I've never seen a political party do everything it can to divide a country and incite violence until now. It's disgusting.

Even way back in WWI the men in the book knew the military would give them a future if they survived.

I have a couple of movies that take place during WWI. I don't know how any of them kept their sanity in that war. Trench warfare was brutal. Parts of France were completely destroyed and became miles of mud, trenches and artillery holes. I can't imagine being evil enough to think using mustard gas to take out the enemy was a good idea.

By the time I finished the book it was clear that the Code Talkers saved thousands of lives on both sides. Maybe someone will option the book for a movie so they get the recognition they deserve.

I was shocked that the Choctaws were considered one of the "civilized" tribes. I've read a lot of fiction and nonfiction and never saw that delineation before.

I think the human race lost a lot when the government forced our beliefs and lifestyle on the native people. I believe we could have learned a lot from them but a lot of that knowledge is lost because they had no written language.

My daughter wants to do infantry or combat scout. I have tried talking her into other positions but she wants to be on the front lines helping. I see her point but as a mother I don't want it.

I did not know that about the Choctaws! It is nice to know that. I love learning about the Native Americans. I respect more than most people.

I truly cant wait to finish this book!

I'm biased but I was in a long time, almost 15 years with my active reserve time, and would try to convince her to go into intell. It actually helps as much if not more than infintry because of tracking troop movements and gathering communications. It also opens doors to jobs in D.C. I spent 4 years working in the D.C. area when I was active duty. The clearance and background are pluses for jobs at the Pentagon, CIA, FBI, NSA, DIA, all the agencies that are part of the intelligence community. I joined up without a guaranteed job and I'm so lucky I fell into intell. It's bigger than helping the military you are actually helping the government from the President on down. Have her read about the Code Talkers because that is similar. They were front line intelligence gatherers, analysts and communicators.

Enjoying the book. It has exceeded my expectations thus far.

Patricia wrote: "I'm biased but I was in a long time, almost 15 years with my active reserve time, and would try to convince her to go into intell. It actually helps as much if not more than infintry because of tra..."

She actually is going to start reading the book today! We talked over the weekend about it and she cant wait!

I will try to talk to her about it and have her read our conversations so she can get another opinion from someone who has been in.

This book has been amazing so far and I wish there were tons more books on this! Our children should read more books like this.

I loved the book. I'm trying to figure out how to get them to take another look at Otis Leader and Joseph Oklahombi for the Medal of Honor again. I guess it's been looked at but got nowhere. Both should get the award. I'm surprised General Pershing didn't put at least Otis Leader up for the MOH.

I'm also hoping someone options it for a movie. They were amazing men. Everyone should know there names and what they did.

I've just finished this book and though it was a little different than I was expecting, Sarah did a great job weaving historical fact into her story. I'll be going through her list of sources and putting many other books relating to the code talkers on my reading list. The book is one that provokes many thoughts and much has already been mentioned in this post. I'll only add a few more.

When B.B's mom told him about the German's bringing weapons to the World's Fair and how she'd hoped no one brought such things to "our" country, I wonder if is she stood looking at the German display with thoughts of how weapons had already devastated "our" land. What happened to her people once could happen again, to her family and those who'd committed the crimes against them. The idea that we're all just one big bully away from oppression...

I'm eager to read some of the existing journals and bits of pieces that contributed to Sarah's work to see more into the mind of these native men who still eagerly volunteer to fight, and who we rarely hear much from even though their land has been utterly destroyed. This isn't the forum for me to rant about the destruction of the earth from the microbial level up, but I can't help but wonder what goes through the minds of people who have seen a land flowing with milk and honey become dust bowls and swamps with scalped land bearing no herds of bison five miles wide and twenty-five miles long as I've read in journals from the late 1800's. All I can say is that what civilized people call civilization is not what grows healthy and strong people. So I'll gladly be heathen, as my grandmother used to say...


I loved the references to god and I'm SO glad Sarah included the section of the story where B.B. explained that the natives always knew there was a creator. I've traveled to many countries and have found that most everyone relates to some superior being. A New Zealander once told me about the "breath of life", something that is in the bible, but that he said was part of their belief system long before the "white missionary" came to them. I've heard similar things over and over, that the missionaries who take credit for "saving" people, or bringing them this great wisdom, only did so because what the missionary preached had similarities to what the people already believed. Their ways and other elements of culture are different, but just because they didn't wear corsets and stiff shoes doesn't mean they were beneath the person who destroyed a lot of nature to get wrapped in those fancy duds. We've lost a lot of wisdom through being civilized.

There are no easy solutions to the many issues our country faces today because the problems weren't created in a day. It's culture, breeding ideas that manifest into actions. To change culture we have to teach differently, breed new ideas. Quit giving power to negative words, and quit tearing each other apart because we're too rich, too poor, too skinny, too fat, too dumb, too smart, too pretty, too ugly, too black, too white... The instant we judge a person, we're wrong. When we encounter someone, we have to see who they are inside. Then we don't have to judge, they'll brand themselves.

Lastly, I agree with you Patricia, this book would be a great movie! Thank you so much for your time and effort in setting up this group read!

LeeDonna I plan to search for a book on Otis Leader. He is beyond inspirational and amazing. If you find any books that add to the understanding of this one please share them.

I was just writing a review where I expressed nostalgia for small town America pre 1970. It relates to what you said about destroying the earth. As we look back history teaches us a lot. Native Americans didn't believe anyone could own land. It makes perfect sense to me. I look at today's "progress" and yearn for the small towns where everyone knew and helped each other and kids could go out in the morning and parents didn't have to worry about us. It was a safe world. We would go home, eat lunch, back out, home for dinner, back out and home for bed. It's unimaginable today.

I've read a lot of books about a lot of ancient cultures and the religious beliefs with a few exceptions were very similar. One God, angel figures etc. I believe we lost a lot of wisdom by beating beliefs out of Native Americans. I think they may have been more spiritually advanced than us. There are long lists of "miracles" performed by medicine men. Crazy Horse got his name because his horse would "dance" in battle. U.S. troops swore he would disappear and bullets passed through him when it happened. Geronimo could call up storms to escape. These names we've been taught were chiefs. They weren't they were wisemen and medicine men. I loved the explanation of God being behind the sun. It's like today Muslims are taught Christians worship three Gods, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. It's not true but it is a firm basis for hate in the middle east.

Our country is a mess. I have my opinions about why but will leave it at this, a large part of the population was muzzled for 8 years because to disagree with Obama and the democrats meant you were a racist. At least that was the accusation so people said nothing. Now we have a party that acts like and believes it's a ruling class. Their threats to gut the Constitution prove my statement true. A military swearing in is very similar to a Pesident's swearing in. The words are almost identical and as a vet I can say that oath is something you carry for life. You will see people rise up if parts of the Constitution are in danger of repeal.

My ancestry goes back to Jamestown on my father's side and the Mayflower on my mother's. At times I feel guilt about the way Native Americans were treated because of it. At least we stuck to the east coast and primarily New England. Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee is a book that breaks my heart every time I read it.

I have two more of Sarah's books I plan to fit into my pile. They are the two trail or tears books. Sarah is an amazing person and author. Her books will help the Choctaw live on well into the future.

Maybe we can get a grassroots campaign going and they will make a movie about this book. It deserves to be put on film where it will reach a larger audience.