SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Who’s in for a scary read? Please use spoiler tags and chapter numbers so we can follow along!

Thanks for starting the thread.

Just finishing up Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Will be starting Heart-Shaped Box tomorrow, most likely.

Me:) I am saying goodbye to Fitz and his sweet wolf(rolling rolling…)

I started and it's interesting. There have been a few lines that really make a visual pop but it's only good if you know the reference. Which makes me wonder how the story will do with age. Yay tangents!

In it ankle deep now. Admittedly didn't have too high hopes for it (never been too fond of the horror genre - or american gothic), but here to be persuaded otherwise, as usual, and the start's been surprisingly captivating. First and foremost enjoying the lively banter.

Decided to start to tonight. I seriously can’t get away from Danny, Jack, and The Shining, apparently. (Taking a break from Doctor Sleep, its sequel).

My e-book hold cleared yesterday and I have about 20 pages left in another book, so I'm ready to start tonight or tomorrow.

I started it today. It's my second by Joe Hill, after The Fireman.

It's fun so far. I'm quite surprised how similar this feels to the ones I used to read back in the 80/90ies. (as with SF and F I only just now start reading horror again after decades of abstinence)

Up to Ch8 Audio: I'm really enjoying the rhythm of the story. It's a careful cadence that totally lures you in.

Are we sure this is horror, though? Definitely not "scary" at least. Feels quite mild and manufactured in that regard. Otherwise nicely sincere. I'm also feeling a 'bluster' on the nuances of goth subcultures boiling up from somewhere almost couple decades past *hah*

Chapter 25 - Absolutely loved this sentiment from Jude: (view spoiler)[ "So this is what your kid would find out: No matter what bad thing happens to me, I can talk to my mother, because she's been through it all. No matter what shitty thing happens to me, I can survive it, because my mom was through worse, and she made it". (hide spoiler)]

@Soo: enjoying the audio as well, and completely agree on this. The timbre stays so soothingly smooth throughout, nice and lulling. Or to describe it in a way that perhaps better suits the characters: quite drugged up.

It's brilliant as a format and layered. (view spoiler)[The scenes are written like hypnosis. The ebb and flow to draw a person into a state of calm acceptance and then do as "suggested". The observations and thoughts bleed into the dreams. The question that's up for debate is rather or not they are dreams or haunting. (hide spoiler)]

@Jemppu Aw, this is indeed scary story 😂

*a

I'm not super far in - around page 80-85 or so - but I'm enjoying it so far. Nicely atmospheric. But, then, I like ghost stories, so, here's hoping.

As a sometime Goth, though, the descriptions of Goth girls isn't entirely flattering. LOL

colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: "...As a sometime Goth, though, the descriptions of Goth girls isn't entirely flattering..."

This is exactly what brings up recollections from late teenage years of noncommittally observing goth subcultural nuances somewhere from the sidelines (or in between factions?). The distinction between a 'classical goth' and the modern stereotypical American gothism, which this book so finely demonstrates, in almost satiric accuracy.

(Cut not for spoilers, but lengthy tangents) (view spoiler)[There's this sense of frustratingly senseless immature teenage rebelling, that used to stand out in the American flavored goth scene to me. This rock star bad boy worshiping, in it's studded leather jacket, ripped skinny jeans, tattoos, piercings and steel toed boots.

More reminiscent even, and indeed the birthing grounds, of emo. "Shopping mall goth". The book even mentions My Chemical Romance, branding, and feels one sentence short of bringing up Hot Topic. Shallow commercialism mixed with punk-ish teenage rage. And 'girls' indeed the likes of "Suicide Girls".

It seems like the boozing, defiantly drug abusing, parental authority dissing, trashy, impudent wild child, who never grows up, lives short and fast and goes to grave by overdosing, screaming "respect my edginess!", in opposition to the classical, sophisticatedly wine/absinthe sipping, regal and refined aristocrat type with 18th to 19th century sensibilities and immortal wisdom, elegant old dark soul, who probably never was a kid - not in this century anyway - and who'll likely never wither away, just morosely travels through millennia, indifferent to all, and way above our mortal woes - obnoxiously patronizing and snobby mf to the rock goth.

American gothic feels it views the dead and death as something scary and corrupted, edgy (zombies, werewolves...), where as the 'classical' sensibility presents death as something alluringly macabre, sexy even (not in the trashy Halloween costume way), sinful delight (a la vampires, impious nobility).

Of course there's the more classical sensibilities to American goth too - suspense by the likes of Hitchcock, but not so much in this book. This book feels almost selfmockingly stereotypical of the modern 'rock goth'. And I do not say this to be mean or that it would be bad; it's actually quite heartwarming how aware it is of itself here, how sympathetic and hopelessly broken the characters are presented - human - and know what a mess they are too.

Tediously high on self-pity however *hah* Though, that too quite relatable. (hide spoiler)]

Okay, finished … for me the dogs were the best in the book.

(view spoiler)[It started good. I very much liked the idea of the ebay-like auction of a ghost and I was looking forward to things to come. But somehow they didn't. Over some length it was more a crimi with a ghost touch than anything I would have called a horror-story.
The characters and their respective life stories felt so cliché, I really couldn't sympathise with any of them. As said above, I only cared for the dogs.

I was waiting for a twist, an event, that would make me go "now we talk!" - but nothing happened. On the contrary: The narration of Anna's last hours felt unnecessarily dragged. At this point the reader already knew that she didn't kill herself, so I couldn't see the sense in recalling this in length.

The end, too, was rather uneventful. This is one of those books whose content I forget the moment I finish the last page. (hide spoiler)]

Not going to read the spoiler yet. Didn't care for the story? I think I'm about halfway.

I only had time to read one chapter last night before I fell asleep, but it's an interesting beginning so far. I haven't gotten through enough to form an opinion, but the set up is proceeding nicely.

Soo wrote: "Not going to read the spoiler yet. Didn't care for the story? I think I'm about halfway."

I guess I was expecting a lot more, and my expectations weren't met in any way.

Audio Ch 17:

Good (view spoiler)[
- Call from the Grave by Danny
- The light bulb moment when Jude realized he could sell the suit and to find out that MB had just burnt it.
- The conversation between Jude & Florida about how she would rather travel slowly back home vs flying.
- I didn't question it before but after the flashback I wondered why Jude & MB are driving to Florida instead of flying.
- The way Jude & MB met. Vivid & I really liked the chemistry because of the whole moment of MB singing as she performed.
- Ghost Radio
- The story about the twin & Jude seeing her ghost. Being able to call her name.
- Dogs are cute little protectors.
- The moment of horror when Jude thought he may have hooked up with MB's Grandma. HAHAHAH
- Bambi is great.
- Though Jude & MB are selfish in their own ways, neither of them want to hurt more people.
(hide spoiler)]

Thoughts (view spoiler)[
- Good in a crappy fashion but it's pretty depressing to see how the characters are marked by the awful things that happened to them. Various forms of abuse, self-loathing, neglect, untouched sorrows and various shades of little hells.
- Step-Dad is one heck of a bad man and I feel like he's the one pulling the strings before death and after.
- Totally not surprised that Florida was killed vs suicide. (hide spoiler)]

@Soo re chapter 17: (view spoiler)[Soo wrote: "...The moment of horror when Jude thought he may have hooked up with MB's Grandma. ..."

Yes! This was so beautifully played :D (hide spoiler)]

Finally diving in now! Looking forward to joining the discussion. Glad it’s already well underway, as I knew it would be, what with this wonderfully active group we have here.

Anthony wrote: "Finally diving in now! Looking forward to joining the discussion. Glad it’s already well underway, as I knew it would be, what with this wonderfully active group we have here."

Right on time in fact (wasn't this the original start date after all?). Definitely interested to reading your take!

Just finished chapter 5. (view spoiler)[ I enjoy reading about flawed, complicated, pent-up characters. Especially when the writer isn’t condescending to them, but presenting them in a compassionate, clear-eyed manner. Even though it’s early, I felt for Jude’s reluctance to go home to see his dying father, and I felt for the woman caring for him. Complex scenes like these really impress me when they’re as well done as this one was. (hide spoiler)]I’m also enjoying Hill’s lucid prose.

Early in the book: =D

(view spoiler)[Danny & his expressive eyebrows. I believe Hill used Nicholson for the visual. That was great. (hide spoiler)]

@Anthony Most good horror stories are ultimately character studies.

Finished chapter 7 now, and it's getting exciting.

(view spoiler)[It's interesting to learn that this is a vengeful ghost with an agenda. I'm excited to see what kind of haunting he does (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 37-38 (view spoiler)[Bah, well, that turned nasty all of a sudden. Has the writing really done anything to earn nothing but disgust for it's use of violence and the brutal daunts here? How are these hypocritical old rocker and his young accomplice justified breaking into someone's house and beat them up in front of their kid? Forcing the child to try to defend mom with a gun too.

Over a ghost? That they were dull enough themselves to 'invite over' - which they admitted to themselves even.

I feel kinda betrayed getting lulled into liking this sorry lot at all.

Still waiting for the 'horror' part too: this could be it in terms of an assault and animal slaughter, but I'd still rate it just crass and in piss poor taste.

Moving on... hoping for some redemption ahead still. (hide spoiler)]

Finished! I gave it 3 stars.

@ Jemppu - Re: Ch37-38 (view spoiler)[

Everything you noted in your spoiler is part of what makes this a horror story. It's not just the ghost haunting, hunting, hurting & stalking them that is creepy. It's all the awful things that had happened to various characters in the story.

We're not suppose to like what happens. I believe that we're suppose to feel disgusted, sad, etc by the events in the story. Jude & MB were totally in the wrong in how they barged into the house but Jessica isn't all right in the head either.

I didn't like much of this particular sequence. (hide spoiler)]

@ Gabi (view spoiler)[

I feel totally let down by the climax of the story. The whole thing started with such promise and then the haunting part became a byline of the story and the focus turned into abuse.

I am happy that the story ended on a high note. That some good came out of all the awful. But I am not at all satisfied by how the story climax. That was crap. (hide spoiler)]

Soo wrote: "...Everything you noted in your spoiler is part of what makes this a horror story...."

Finished. (view spoiler)[Yeah. I was afraid it thought so. For some reason I just found it all very unearned, and poorly handled. And the conclusion just a frustrating fluke, trying to paint a picture of a tragic hero for this middle aged man-child crying over a frustrating youth and bad relationship with his dad while doing nothing to try and mend things, just wallowing in it, acting like a jerk causing further upset for himself and those around him.

The whole thing left a very superficial 'scary story' vibe, that wasn't any way 'scary' or frightening. Or disgusting for the events themselves even, but for the writer's way of handling the story / characters. There are number of 'scarier' stories out there we've been privy to thanks to this wonderful group, that without the 'horror' label on them were still much more effectively, genuinely upsetting and frightening. In comparison this just fell desperately flat - came across but crass and juvenile, and didn't seem to have anything to say either.

All the rest after that assault and gun scene just seemed dull: pills and drugs and slitting wrists... puncture wounds, missing fingers and bloody bandages... List of supposed cruelties without a hint of motive, empty words with no emotion. No depth, no resonance. Just cheap attempts to shock and milk out a reaction from the reader without giving anything back.

I didn't spot a single word to describe how and why our 'hero' felt anything - if he did - during any of those final struggled battles even. Just page after page after page of choreography of movement and of things breaking.

Maybe I'm not of the target group then? Maybe this is targeted primarily to a more 'enraged'/rebellious audience? But even with my particular frustrations I can't see I would've bought this even in my earlier age. It just acts too blatantly juvenile.

And presented itself in quite poor taste, I'm afraid. The feeling it did manage to elicit: pity over a failure to deliver after such a good set up.

Would've almost worked for a satire of it's niche genre - of itself. But I doubt it went for that. It was just that shallow and "self-absorbed" - just as the protagonist is described... quite correctly it turns out.

The vivid prose, the lively dialogue, and their combined ability to pull you into the story and create sympathy for the tediously self-loathing characters were a small redeeming factor. The audio performance by Stephen Lang was nice. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 7: Well, that escalated quickly.

Jemppu wrote:

(view spoiler)[I agree that the story became less personal at the point Jude & MB barge into Jessica's house. That's where I started to lose interest. It became more action oriented to move the story to a conclusion.

The motive to set Jude up and "haunt" him to death was rather anti-climatic. It's too bad. I did like most of the writing for the story. It fell apart towards the end. (hide spoiler)]

I'm now finished with chapter 13, and it is getting spookier.

(view spoiler)[The eyes of ghosts being blacked out is extra creepy. Right now it sounds like Jude isn't the best person in the world, but I haven't read anything that would make the family want to kill him so much. I'm looking forward to finding out more. (hide spoiler)]

Eyes (view spoiler)[I keep imagining them to be cursive writing scribbles that move across the white eyeballs. (hide spoiler)]

I just finished chapter 19, and it was great. (view spoiler)[The sequence with the dogs having overlapping shadows was really cool. It felt good to see a little bit of resistance to the ghost instead of him just being an all powerful force. (hide spoiler)]

I finished last night, and I really liked it.

Final thoughts. (view spoiler)[I don't usually read horror, so I don't have a lot to compare it to, but this is my second Joe Hill book, and I really like his writing style. I didn't like Jude as a character, but I didn't need to like him to appreciate the story, which was fast paced and held my attention. I loved the vividly described action scenes the most. I could imagine the crazy things that were happening in full detail, and that always helps me enjoy a story.

It wasn't particularly deep or terrifying, but I was okay with that. There were just a lot of creepy moments along with a bit of mystery, and plenty of action.

I was kind of surprised we got such a happy ending after all that despair. I think that's really my only criticism. After all of that, Jude and MB lived happily ever after, and suffered no consequences. I think it would have been much more impactful if Jude went to prison or one of them died. (hide spoiler)]

I’m finding it a bit of a slog in part 2, (view spoiler)[ like ground is getting covered that was already covered... (hide spoiler)]

I am in the middle of the book now. Personally I feel the BR is really a challenge thing:) Like the spider last time and now is a ghost~>_<~ but somehow it’s not that SCARY after reading the group thoughts, thank you all.

Bobby wrote: "I finished last night, and I really liked it."

=)

(view spoiler)[ It's almost like, hey what would people least expect as the ending? Let's go with that. LOL

That's how I kind of felt. (hide spoiler)]

Anthony, part 2? Can you give a better idea of where you are in the book?

Wen, it's fun to read with friends.

@Soo my edition has contents divided into Parts. (view spoiler)[ They just arrived at her grandma’s place. It’s picked up again a bit. I appreciate the attention paid to damaged people and how they armor up in different ways. It feels a little tropey in that regard, though, and I’m not sure it’s going deeper in a way that I would prefer. (hide spoiler)] We shall see...

Anthony (view spoiler)[The characters are established well and some of the scenes have great atmosphere. You'll have to share what you hoped for when you're done. (hide spoiler)]

Soo wrote: "...You'll have to share what you hoped for when you're done."

Yees. I'm getting more suspense (view spoiler)[from following people's progress through the story here, than what I managed to find from the story itself 8) (hide spoiler)].

Just finished chapter 40 (view spoiler)[ I have a thick skin for dark and twisted stories, I don’t mind depravity and violence depicted when it’s there to illuminate the human condition. Something about Craddock and Jessica is just starting to feel too cartoonish to me. I guess Joe Hill is onto something in populating his supernatural horror story with the real-life horrors of incestuous child molestation, and families that close ranks to protect their secrets rather than face the consequences and reality of their actions. But it is failing to reach the truly grounded disturbing depths that I think he wants to reach.

I appreciate his attempt to explore the ways in which children of abuse absorb their traumas and become armored, complicated adults. I just think he hasn’t found a way to make the abusers human enough to make them truly horrific. When they are cartoonishly evil monsters, it allows us to keep them at arms’ length and not see ourselves in them. One of my favorite performances of all time is Ralph Fiennes in Schindler’s List. Because while the Nazi he portrayed did monstrous things, he showed us that this Nazi was a man like any other man, and that was more chilling and horrifying than if he’d been a mustache-twirling maniac.

Not much left in the book in terms of page count, but it’s feeling like a slog, even as (or because of) things are ramping up in terms of action. I’m just losing the thread of recognizably human behavior. (hide spoiler)]

Anthony, great thoughts. Will definitely make some comments & ask a few questions when you are done.

Anthony wrote: "Just finished chapter 40 ..."

My problem was, that I didn't get the feeling that it was introduced for the exploration of human depths, but simply for shocking. Perhaps I do injustice to the author.

I am roughly at the halfway point. Seems like a standard horror story, nothing special.

For those who haven't read The Fireman, I heartily recommend it. We did a BR of it in June, and almost everyone loved it.

Chris wrote: "
For those who haven't read The Fireman, I heartily recommend it. We did a BR of it in June, ..."

This unfortunately isn't included in the collection I bought (ha! naive me … yet the price for the collection was the same as for the single book, so no harm done), but I have NOS4A2 there and will give this a try for the BR in December.

Anthony wrote: "Just finished chapter 40..."

Once you've finished it all (view spoiler)[I agree on everything here.

On violence and corruption being welcome and truthful tools to depict the darker corners of human condition - as it was attempted here -, but in this instance, I felt it was poorly handled. Or not explored deep enough: only the surface level rage, resentfulness and defiance addressed - never dwelling beyond that, but relaying on 'ghost stories' to fill those gaps instead.

You are very correct in Craddock and Jessica coming across as cartoonish - neither of them appearing too human. Not enough to seem horrific, and clearly not human enough to warrant compassion either, as another one gets depicted as a bafflingly vengeful ghost for reason's unknown, and the other but a mad accomplish: the writer himself seems to fail to realize, acknowledge or fail to make proper use of the fact, that Jessica too, is in truth, victim of her father's abuses from early age - molded by her household to what she is now, just as broken (which makes the attempted 'justification' of all of Jude's own abusive actions as 'heroic' even more vile, imho). A chance to explore why Jessica might side with her dad is left completely unused - it seems there would've been a striking, contrasting story of selfprotection there as well - one that didn't manifest as selfharm like it did with her sister.

Ralph Fiennes in Schindler's List is an excellent example of humanizing (or more like reminding us of the humanity of) something that often gets cartoonishly villainized. Another one that randomly just popped into my mind (or perhaps prompted by the incestuous aspect?) - and one of my personal favorites - is Joaquin Phoenix as Commodus "a mad emperor" in Gladiator - a man set on his corrupted path by his need to please and failure to win his father's affections, resulting in his zealous behaviour towards those his father showed affection for.

There's so much latency with these characters - Jude and his complicated relationship with his father most definitely included - which sadly never gets addressed, but instead subsided in an attempt to shock with ghost stories and violence. In what seems like a desperate effort to try and appear 'cool': literally raging and fighting against one's own inner demons (by lashing out to others). In my eyes, it seems Jude is no better than his father was to him, or what Craddock was to his daughters, or what Jessica was to her daughter: refusing to come in terms with his inner turmoil with himself, but rather going around deflecting that hurt to others.

Which would be fine, and potentially deeply touching and human tale too, if it was explored properly and not presented as 'spooky ghost story' lacking in soul instead. And if wasn't for the fact that Jude gets painted so heroically for his actions while the others like him get cast as villains for no other reason than for the story being told from the self-absorbed rocker's perspective - his 'sob story'. Childishly one sided view of the events.

The story can indeed be said to be failing to reach the disturbing depths it has all the potential for. The lack of "recognizably human behavior" too just increased towards the end, where a grant 'final confrontation' needed to take place for no more than convention's sake, it felt.

And the ending of "oh, shucks, that Jude" left the character exactly where we set off with him - no growth to them, just few more people in their life dead. Could work with a serialized story, but not at all satisfactory for a stand alone.



...who knows, perhaps it is aiming for an easy adaptation to TV/comic series. (hide spoiler)]

Gabi wrote: "My problem was, that I didn't get the feeling that it was introduced for the exploration of human depths, but simply for shocking..."

This.