The Feminist Orchestra Bookclub discussion

This is the thread to chat all about our Nov/Dec 2018 pick Kindred

You can start sharing your thoughts and feelings on the book at any point in your reading experience. If you are including specific details about the plot beyond the blurb please use this text to keep any spoilers hidden unless expressly opened by another member to read - you can let everyone know what point in the book the spoilers pertain to beforehand: <*spoiler*>This is the text that will be hidden.<*/spoiler*> (remove the asterixes*)

I am nearly half way through this gripping book and there are numerous issues/topics to discuss; I am so thoroughly looking forward to these discussions. One point that strikes me so far, is how "comfortable" Dana and Kevin are adjusting to the concept of slavery, even to the point that Dana admits these thoughts.

Hi everyone! I finished the book, I can just say that I loved it. It is the first time I am reading Olivia Butler and it was a good start, now I would like to read more of her work. I found interesting to see the different periods of time from Dana's eyes and how they could differ from Kevin's. I seemed to me that culture and race define us independently of the time where we live. It is just matter of the circunstancies, the characteristics that are highlighted.

I just picked up a copy from my local library (it's quite hard to get a hold of here in the Netherlands) - am very excited to start reading!

I am about 60% through and really enjoying this. I've never read anything like this and will definitely be reading more of her stuff after this. The way dana has to navigate through that time period is scary and makes me realise that sometimes we haven't come as far we like to think.

So glad more people are hearing Octavia Butlers name. She is by far my favorite science fiction writer of all time. I’ve read everything she’s written and honestly you can go wrong with any of her works. My favorite series is the Xenogenisis trilogy tho!

Dallyce wrote: "So glad more people are hearing Octavia Butlers name. She is by far my favorite science fiction writer of all time. I’ve read everything she’s written and honestly you can go wrong with any of her ..."

It's funny, I absolutely loved her Parable series and was an instant favorite for me. When I read the first in the Xenogenisis series I had a complete opposite reaction. I really didn't enjoy it and found the characters flat and the writing clunky. It felt like a completely different writer, though I know its a favorite in the sci-fi community. I'm interested in what you liked about it. I absolutely LOVE Octavia but I was so confused after reading Dawn... Are the books in the rest of the series different?

I'm loving this book! I have only about 50 pages left.

I absolutely devoured this book! I actually wrote on Butler for my Master's thesis and I'm so glad to have picked her up again. I think the way that she builds her worlds, and the voices within them is so powerful. For me, Kindred highlights the complexities of privilege, complicity, and knowing the past. Kindred stayed with me after I finished it, and I think it will for a long time. It's also made me want to finish reading the Xenogenisis trilogy!

This was my first Butler novel and will not be my last. I really enjoyed this and can tell that the themes of human relationship she weaves so brilliantly will stay with me for years to come.

I'm curious, how to people feel about Kevin? I had mixed feelings about him, and I'm not sure if his attitudes are intentional and meant to reflect the difference between the white male and black female experience that still existed/exists even in post Jim Crow America, or if we're supposed to love him and assume that some of his attitude could be more of an unintentional reflection of male attitudes in the 1970s, as opposed to black vs white attitudes. Specific examples that pop into my head are in the flashback where he and Dana nearly break up because she won't transcribe manuscripts for him or whatever it was, and also when he'd make comments about how the plantation wasn't as horrible as he'd imagined. I'm sure the latter example was intentional, and Butler seems to be enough of a master writer that EVERYthing she did was probably intentional, but the flashback really confused me. Yes he wrote off his sister to marry a black woman and spent three years in the nineteenth century helping slaves escape, but there were moments where I wasn't thrilled with his subtle treatment of Dana (I just can't think of all those moments now). I guess the jury's out for me on exactly how I feel about Kevin. Or perhaps better put, I'm not sure how Butler wants us to feel about Kevin. What do you all think?

@Regina Yes! I was wondering the same thing! I think that Butler mainly had him in there to use as a comparative tool, not only for how he was treated in the past, but also to show that even someone as “with it” and modern thinking as Kevin is still problematic. Although he’s obviously much more progressive in his thoughts when compared directly with the Weylins, he also is a parallel to them in his more sexist actions towards Dana (aka the notetaking scene you mentioned being paralleled with Rufus ordering her to do the same thing).

Outside of this I was hoping Octavia Butler would explore a little more on what an interracial relationship encounters. I was really interested when she mentioned Kevin’s sister’s reaction and Dana’s uncle’s reaction-some more of this would have been fascinating.

I really enjoyed this book though, and now feel super motivated to read some more Octavia Butler!

ALSO (view spoiler)[I don't understand the arm thing, I'm guessing her losing her arm to the wall where Rufus touched her meant something but it's not quite hitting me. (hide spoiler)]

Yes, I think that’s exactly it, that while Kevin is reasonably progressive, he’s still a institutionally sexist and racist product of his time, just as Dana points out at least once that Rufus is a product of his own time. I just wish it had been explored more, especially at the end where they go on being together after what they’ve experience. She does point out that while the ordeal didn’t hurt them any, it didn’t help them any either. Like it seems that Kevin’s eyes weren’t opened at all. He went into it believing that way of life was wrong, and he came out of it still believing that way of life was wrong and never seemed to do any real introspection that might help him see his own subtle oppressive tendencies. I, too, would have liked to see more them and the family members that rejected them, but it probably wasn’t necessary for the purposes of this book. It’s Kevin’s psyche I wish we could have gone into more deeply. Still loved the book, though, and the most important points are still made.

I really enjoyed this book! Went in it with no expectations, but it surprised me. I generally don't enjoy historical fiction so much, but with this book I felt truly connected to the main character and her situation.
The only thing I had a problem with, was the fact that they all accepted their faith so quickly. In general I feel like there were a lot of topics that could have been discussed more thoroughly, like Kevin's perspective as has been already said.

I loved reading about the intersection between racism and sexism but what struck me the most is how Rufus is such a product of patrarchy. In the scene where Dana confronts him before coming back to her own time with Kevin who'd been stranded in 1850, it's like you can see how his father and the pressures around him made him into this violent, entitled, controlling person. He really does feel misunderstood but he can't help but hurt Dana, who he feels is the only one who knows him. And when he realises she's ready to abandon him he just snaps and gets violent again. It baffled me how well Rufus is written, and how much you can understand of the world around him (and our world too) through his reactions and characterisation

I agree, Rufus is astoundingly complex and realistic. And, like Dana, I think you find yourself *almost* liking him sometimes, in spite of everything, which is a confusing emotion and helps explain, to an extent, how some of these things can happen.