Classics and the Western Canon discussion

The poem deviates from the traditional romance since Gawain has to prove his courage but not in the traditional way by jousting. The poet leads Sir Gawain (and us!) to believe he demonstrates courage by accepting an exchange of blows he is certain will kill him. As it turns out, Gawain’s challenge is internal. He is tested to see how successfully he can maintain his ideals while subject to intense pressure.

Another deviation from the traditional romance lies in the fact that it is the lady who takes initiative to seduce the knight and not the other way around. In spite of appearances, however, her seduction is not sexual. It has to do with testing Sir Gawain’s desire for self-preservation against his code of honor—the commitment he made to the host.

In the opening lines, King Arthur’s Court is described in laudatory language as a place where all adhere to a code of chivalry and courtesy. Gawain is initially presented as a good Christian knight with high morals and high ideals. But when he is put to the test, he is unable to uphold those ideals. What is the poet suggesting about chivalry and idealism? Are the standards realistic?

Gawain says he will wear the girdle “in sign of this, my sin . . .” Do the knights of Arthur’s Court wear the green girdle for the same reason as Sir Gawain? Or does the meaning of the green girdle vary depending on who is wearing it?

The Green Knight explains Morgan Le Fay’s actions for testing Sir Gawain. Is her motive believable? Has she been unfair to Sir Gawain for testing him in this way?

Why is the poem set during the Christmas season?

Serendipity!

I frequently listen to a BBC podcast called In Our Time. I just heard the latest one, put out on December 13. It was about none other than Sir Gawain. The host discusses the poem with a couple of English professors, including Simon Armitage who translated it.

I’m including the link in case you would like to hear it. You’ll also find a reading list if you scroll down the page. Enjoy!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000...

Maybe Gawain failed, but only in a fairly minor way, considering the perils he faced, and he got away with just a nick on the neck. Maybe the lesson is that nobody's perfect, not even a Knight of the Table Round.

Roger wrote: "Maybe the lesson is that nobody's perfect, not even a Knight of the Table Round..."

I agree.

I'm having difficulty posting my reply to Tamara as such: I hope that a straight comment will go through.

"Another deviation from the traditional romance lies in the fact that it is the lady who takes initiative to seduce the knight and not the other way around."

In a considerable number of French (and other) romances, Gawain (or Gauvain, etc.) is approached by a woman professing love for him, usually on the basis of his reputation, but sometimes from his physical appearance. (This is characteristic of him but sometimes happens to other knights as well, including the relative latecomer, Lancelot.)

In most instances, Gawain responds enthusiastically: so much so that in one of the long "Continuations" of Chretien's "Perceval, or, The Story of the Grail," he admits to taking unfair advantage of a girl.

I think that the Gawain-poet is here playing *against* audience expectations.

By the way, Gawain has a number of sons by various such ladies -- I assume that someone has catalogued them, but I don't know of any specific treatment. Their adventures figure in some longer stories (like the Continuations previously mentioned), while in other cases the boy searching for his father is the primary plot.

Ian wrote: "I'm having difficulty posting my reply to Tamara as such: I hope that a straight comment will go through.

"Another deviation from the traditional romance lies in the fact that it is the lady who t..."

Ian, I knew Gawain had a reputation as a lady's man, but I didn't know he had fathered "a number of sons by various ladies."

Tamara wrote: "Why is the poem set during the Christmas season?"

Other than a general tie to Christian religion and possibly near the end of the old year; just in time for green baldrics of resolutions for the new year, I am not sure. I do not see any parallels to the Nativity story itself. Was Gawain tempted as Jesus was; are there parallels to be made there?

Tamara wrote: The Green Knight explains Morgan Le Fay’s actions for testing Sir Gawain. Is her motive believable? Has she been unfair to Sir Gawain for testing him in this way?

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Well, yes, it isn’t exactly a fair test — Sir Gawain was set up. The motives for the set up remained unclear to me after the explanation, and one could understand why Sir Gawain was not interested in going back to the Castle after the reveal. I wonder what would have happened if he did — another test?

David wrote: "Tamara wrote: "Why is the poem set during the Christmas season?"

Other than a general tie to Christian religion and possibly near the end of the old year; just in time for green baldrics of resolu..."

In the romances, and to a lesser extent some of the chronicles, there was an established tradition of Arthur holding formal court on the major Church festivals of the year -- an actual practice, at some times and places. Important people were supposed to make an appearance, to show their loyalty. (This plays a role in the story of the conception of Arthur.)

Pentecost shows up fairly often in other romances, which, given the likely weather, seems more reasonable to me.

As to why Christmas was chosen *for this* romance, I don't know. Gawain winds up traveling in unpleasant conditions, which shows his determination, but I wouldn't put much weight on that.

Others who (also) honor the Earth will remember with me. Folk practiced the Old Ways (Winter Solistice, Yuletide. . . ) for centuries after nominal conversion. Too many converts to completely and fully convert, so priests baptized groups of folk and hoped for the best.

In the 13th century (1223?) Francis of Assissi built the first nativity scene. This nativity scene helped strengthen the conversion towards Christianity. In a world cold and dark by night, a nativity scene where light/warmth beckonend people to itself, Christianity negan tp be strengthened as the Story of Hope was told, retold, and enjoyed in a moment of community.

In the middle ages, time was perceived to be more cyclic rather than transformative. The time from 1223 to sometime in the 1300s was just more cycles with little spiritual change.

Maybe, just maybe Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight: The Quest played another part in the gradual move from the Old Religion to the New. Maybe seeing people warm, fed, companioned, strong, and healthy was another piece of intentional/unintentional Christmas propaganda. Maybe. And if so, the writer of Sir Gawaine did not yet quite so much know what would attract towards Christmas. Maybe a proto-type for Christmas stories?

I just have borrowed from the local library Twentieth Century Intrepretations of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. I will peruse, not study. I am far too behind in my reading schedule with otherr groups and friends.

Although this compliation of essays and articles was published in 1968, it addresses the historical background and the style and structure of the long poem. I am looking forward to reading short piece "Ideals of Knighthood in Late Fourteenth -Century England," by Gervase Mathew.

This copy has book mold, so I better get on with the reading of it.

To add something to our comversation about the green girdle . . .
In the Intro, Denton Fox says, "The final offer of the green girdle seems to come when the test is over, after Bercilak's wife has given up any hope of compromising Gawaine."

Ahhh now I see that if Gawine had been in the wrong about not telling Bercilak about the giving and receiving of the girdle, Bercilak would have mentioned it. The husband and wife were in cahoots together. She would have told her husbamd who has noreason to ask about it or for it.

Thank you Western Canon for letting me read with you. I will be focusing on nonfiction in 2019, so I am leaving and remembering that you are here for another year.

My review of Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

My review of Sir Gawain And The Green Knight: A Collection Of Critical Essays by Denton Fox:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

It’s intriguing that the initial feast starts with King Arthur who won’t eat until someone tells him an adventure story or challenges him to a joust. And Sir Gawain is acting in place of the King when he accepts the green knight’s challenge. Perhaps Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is the adventure story that will be told for the next holiday. And I’m not sure why King Arthur is described as childlike.

Susan wrote: "Perhaps Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is the adventure story that will be told for the next holiday. "

I like that idea :)

The poem was a surprisingly enjoyable read. The poetry is lovely, and the story fun and funny. It gave us a glimpse into medieval comedy. I think it was Rex who said he enjoyed the hunting scenes. I did too. They were so vivid and primal.

I was also reminded of Grimm's Fairy Tales in the sense that when you go beyond the most famous ones you get a strong sense of how within them you have an intertwining of a Christian and pagan culture, where the former is dominant, and the other still having significant influence.

Kerstin wrote: "The poem was a surprisingly enjoyable read. The poetry is lovely, and the story fun and funny. It gave us a glimpse into medieval comedy. I think it was Rex who said he enjoyed the hunting scenes. ..."

I agree with this Kerstin - an enjoyable, at times lovely, read .. and I definitely feel the mix of pagan and Christian influences as you say.

The translation I read most recently was the one by Simon Armitage (Sir Gawain and the Green Knight) and I thought it was at times lovely - the directness of the translation served it well.

Really enjoyed reading this and all the commentary was educational as usual. I do get a little irritated when it seems that women are always the schemers. I know it was just the times …....and women being the pox on the world & thus inferior and disposable lasted for centuries, but still that one had to be either like the Virgin Mary once Christianity & the adoration of Mary blossomed or the temptress gets old.

I didn't get a chance to read this. But I just noticed BBC Radio 4's Bookclub did a discussion on a new translation.

You can download a podcast here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06v...