Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

This is our ad-hoc discussion of the fantasy/scifi novel...

The Obelisk Gate by N.K. Jemisin
(Winner of 2016 Hugo Award for Best novel)

Book 2 of the Broken Earth Trilogy
We Discussed the first book in the Broken Earth trilogy, The Fifth Season previously as December's group discussion.

Chapter 1: Nassun, on the rocks

This is our first Nassun PoV, going back to Tirimo and the events that began the first book. (technically, all the chapters in the first book ended up being about the same character, Damaya-Syentite-Essun, so this is our first PoV of someone other than Essun :)

Nassun, Essun's 8-year-old daughter, was mentioned often in Essun's story in the first book, but never actually appeared in it. It now seems Nassun wasn't technically abducted by Jija (Essun's husband). We learn how Jija discovered Uche was an orogene, and thus deduced Nassun was one, too. But Jija doesn't kill Nassun. And we learn Nassun was already thinking about running away from home to become a lorist (the Silence's equivalent of running away to join the circus, I presume.) And so she willingly leaves Tirimo with Jija.

An ugly custody battle begins.... Neither parent seems emotionally stable.

Chapter 2: Essun – you, continued

Essun's story continues from the moment where The Fifth Season left off. In Castrima, Alabaster has asked Essun 1. Can you summon Obelisks? and, 2. Have you ever heard of something called a "moon".

Essun goes out and tries to call an Obelisk, and it seems to work (she doesn't see them, but she sense a couple answer. The Amethyst from before, and a Topaz Alabaster mentioned. Plus an Onyx, much more distant.)

(I wonder if each Obelisk has a unique stone? Is it the Onyx? Or, just an onyx?)

Chapter 3 – Schaffa, forgotten

He, not only did this Guardian survive the destruction of Meov, He's going to have his own PoV in book 2!

We learn a good bit more about Guardians as a result. That implant in the back of his head confers some powers: Amazing healing & strength. And the ability to draw energy from orogene & stills (though it's instantly fatal to the stills.) The latter is apparently ow they keep control of the orogene.

Schaffa washes ashore, with some loss of memory. He ends up recruiting a local feral orogene, Eitz, kills most of his family, and sets off for... where?

I wonder if there's some naming convention in the comms? Essun's daughter is Nassun, Litz son is Eitz, a sort of "change the first syllable" thing.

G33z3r wrote: "Chapter 1: Nassun, on the rocks

This is our first Nassun PoV, going back to Tirimo and the events that began the first book. (technically, all the chapters in the first book ended up being about t..."

It was interesting that even the POV of the other characters are written as if being told to, or told by, "you". To be honest, I was kind of hoping that narrator form would have gone back to a regular first or third person narration, though after a few chapters I started getting used to it again. In the first book it was a novelty, but once we figured out our three narrators were one person I didn't think we needed the unusual choice of second person.

G33z3r wrote: "I wonder if there's some naming convention in the comms? Essun's daughter is Nassun, Litz son is Eitz, a sort of "change the first syllable" thing."

I figured it was a familial thing, you just base your kid's name off those of the parents. Although Uche had nothing to do with either Jija nor Essun, and yet obviously doesn't follow the maternal line with Litz and Eitz so not sure the pattern. Guess I got kind of used to it reading all those Pern stories where the kids were generally a mix of their parents' names. Probably more a thing when you don't have an actually fixed family name, which is true both here and on Pern so you can figure out who people are related to by just their first names?

G33z3r wrote: "Chapter 3 – Shaffa, forgotten

He, not only did this Guardian survive the destruction of Meov, He's going to have his own PoV in book 2!"

I thought the Guardians were weird and a little creepy in the first book...however just a single chapter from Shaffa's POV moved them from creepy to all-out-freaking-scary. And they just happen to smile all the time...

I find myself more interested in figuring out what's up with the Guardians, and who/what is pulling their strings, than what happened to the moon :)

Andrea wrote: "It was interesting that even the POV of the other characters are written as if being told to, or told by, "you". To be honest, I was kind of hoping that narrator form would have gone back to a regular first or third person narration,..."

Though the narration of the Nassun & Schaffa chapters tend to star with the chummy "you" narrator, but "you" is still Essun, so most of their stories actually read as if 3rd person once past the initial paragraph (and a few parentheticals.)

I.e., when a 1st or 2nd person narration doesn't include the PoV character, it kind of devolves to 3rd person. :)

Chapter 4 – Essun - you are challenged
Essun seems to give up on finding Nassun, and adapts to life in Castrima. A hunter is infected with "boilbugs", and with Alabaster's example, Essun can figure out how to use very small orogene in destroy them. (The sad part of this is Castrima can't afford to keep non-productive members, so Ykka now has to order the crippled hunter killed. (The Season demands harsh decisions.)

Lerner guesses correctly that Alabaster caused the Rift.


Interlude
The narrator introduces the concept that there's a very long, slow-moving war going on. It will be awhile before the sides are defined.


Chapter 5 – Nassun takes the reins
The title is a cute double-meaning; both literal and figurative.

Traveling with Jija/Daddy, it becomes clear Daddy is afraid of Nassun and apt to kill her at any provocation. Nassun's story is still behind Essun's story. The shock wave of Alabaster's Yumenese Rift Eruption hits, and she quells it in her & Jija's vicinity. Daddy isn't really grateful. So, Nassun realizes she can still manipulate Jija with big wide eyes and calling him "Daddy". So she learns to manipulate him.

"Something of her is warped out of true by this moment, and from now on all her acts of affection toward her father will be calculated, performative. Her childhood dies, for all intents and purposes. But that is better than all of her dying, she knows."

They come across a victim of the quake. Jija first thought is to take him to the nearest comm. But learning there isn't one anymore after the quake, Jija performs a mercy killing. (The Season demands harsh decisions.)

Andrea wrote: "I find myself more interested in figuring out what's up with the Guardians, and who/what is pulling their strings, than what happened to the moon..."

Well, there's a lot of interesting stuff about Guardians & Stone Eaters coming in this volume.

How far along are you?

Chapter 6 – Essun – you commit to the cause
Tonkee doesn't know what a "moon" is. Alabaster is training Essun. His turning-to-stone is a consequence of what he did at Yumenes. Let's assume it's not just cosmic karma.

Alabaster introduces Essun to what the deadciv called magic.


Chapter 7 – Nassun finds the moon
Nassun's story moves ahead a year (or more) as she & Jija travel to where Jija thinks Nassun's orogene can be "cured".
Nassun becomes a... ahem... stone cold killer (see what I did there?) She ices a couple of comms who get hostile to her & Jija. (It's interesting / odd Jija has heard of "the Moon" when Essun hadn't, but Jija's "Moon" is a place for curing orogenes.)

Nassun discovers a source of orogeny power under the earth, she calls silver. Has she found "magic", too? There they discover a place called "Found Moon" at a comm called Jekity. Surprise! Schaffa is there.

G33z3r wrote: "How far along are you? "

If anyone else joins this thread, this is a fair jump after the last chapter summary:

I'm up to the point where Nassun turns the Antarctic Fulcrum into a statue museum. I know now that Stone Eaters can fiddle with whatever is inside the head of the Guardians and that Tonkee very nearly became a Guardian herself (at least I think that would have been the end result of that sliver of metal getting up her arm). Interesting that Nassun has developed a power that that Stone Eaters have, and back in the previous book there was a Stone Eater inside an obelisk, and Nassun uses an obelisk to turn people to stone, wonder if there is some connection there.

Actually at this point I want to set up a kind of grid like we had for Lonesome October. We know there are three sides to the war: Father Earth against all the living things, the living things that want to restore the moon and the living things that don't want to restore the moon. So we now need to figure out where all the characters fit.

We've got Alabaster and Antimony who want to catch the moon and return it to Father Earth and trying to get Essun to help. I get the feeling that Steel wants the opposite and will try to convince Nassun of that.

And I wonder why Found Moon is well, called Found Moon? After all, it wasn't the "spitball" moon mentioned in the other discussion, so the moon wasn't actually found in that location.

The Guardians are still creepy but is it weird I'm starting to actually like Schaffa? I'm not sure he's really on any of the sides of the war since he's kinda clueless about what's going on, he's had too much wiped out to really know all the why's of what he does and of what's going on around him.

Chapter 8 – Essun – you’ve been warned
There are signs of another comm in the area, and they seem aggressive. But everyone is aggressive in a Season.

Essun is assigned to training the younger orogenes in Castrima. (Alabaster is unhappy, saying it's a waste of Essun's time.)

Alabaster finally agrees to tell Essun "everything" (in the next chapter, of course :)



Chapter 9 – Nassun, needed
Nassun is a really gifted orogene, and Schaffa is teaching her while Jija thinks she's being "cured".

Nassun relates a story of Essun training her, which includes the same hand-crushing Schaffa once used on Essun/Damaya, to test control.

We learn some interesting tidbits about Guardians: Nassun can sess the thing in Schaffa's head, the same thing he yanked out of Timay's skull in Book 1, chapter 17, Damaya in finality. Apparently Guardians are supposed to kill any orogenes who discover the implant exists, but Schaffa spared Damaya, and now he spares Nassun. Nassun also understands how it sucks energy from the sessapinae (fatally, with non-orogenes.) (Way back in Book 1 chapter 2, Damaya in winters past, when Schaffa first met Damaya, he did the same touch to the base of Damaya's skull, but its significance was unknown then.)

We also learn that smiling, for a Guardian, releases some hormones that help ease the pain of the implant. Thus their creepy smiles.

Chapter 10 – Essun – you've got a big job ahead of you
Alabaster (finally!) tells his story (between when Antimony took him unwillingly from Meov to Castrima.) He went thru the earth to the other side, where there's an abandoned deadciv city, Corepoint. (There goes Phil's theory on the Moon being stuck to the other side of the earth :) There's a really, really deep hole there (implying all the way to the earth's core), and the city is there to "contain" the hole. Antimony told Alabaster, ‘This is why I saved you. This is the enemy you face. You are the only one who can.’

Introduces the idea that "Father Earth" is real, sentient, and angry. And Antimony reveals that using 216 obelisks in a network, the Obelisk Gate, should be enough to channel the power of the Rift Alabaster made, to... "Catch the Moon"?

"There’s no need to imagine the planet as some malevolent force seeking vengeance....This is just how life is supposed to be: terrible and brief and ending in— if you’re lucky— oblivion."



Chapter 11 – Schaffa, lying down
Schaffa has dreams of his past, isn't happy, resolves to do better. His implant disagrees.



Chapter 12 – Nassun, falling up
Nassun is learning a different kind of orogeny. Similar to what Alabaster is trying to show Essun.

She sesses that the "thing" in Schaffa's skull is barely the size of a needle used to mend clothes.

She has a bad dream, and accidentally turns Eitz to stone in her sleep.

Jija, still thinking Nassun's orogeny can be cure, wants his daughter back. Schaffa forbears killing him because Nassun asks.

Chapter 13 – Essun – you amid relics
Alabaster's teaching continues. We learn the city of Rennanis was probably spared from the Rift's destruction, because the old node network is still intact around it.

Tonkee has locked herself into the Castrima control room to study it, and Ykka wants him out. We get to see something of the controls, and learn Ykka has a trial-and-error understanding, and Tonkee can decipher some of the script. (A symbol, black circle with white hexagon inscribed within, is the symbol for "the enemy," whoever that was. Father Earth? Hexagon = obelisks?) Then Tonkee touches one of the small wires, and it burrows into her are, heading up the arm. Essun amputates the arm with orogenee.

Based on Nassun's previous observation that the thing in Schaffa's head is the size of a needle, I'm betting it's these things that make Guardians what they are.

Would it work on Tonkee? She's not an orogene, and we were told earlier the implant converts the orogene's sessapinae into not an organ for seek & controlling heat/movement/magic and into one that seeks & controls orogeny itself. What does it do to a still?

Harkening back to Timay's little outburst in Chapter 17 of The Broken Earth, “It seeped through the walls and tainted their pure creation, exploited them before they could exploit it. When the arcane connections were made, it changed those who would control it. Chained them, fate to fate.”

So, probably these wires conduct the will of the apparently sentient planet, Father Earth, into the Guardians. Thus, they have their powers, to detect and draw orogeny, but also have Father Earth messing around in their head. When they lose it completely, like Timay did, they become agents of Earth rather than Guardians.

Andrea wrote: " Tonkee very nearly became a Guardian herself (at least I think that would have been the end result of that sliver of metal getting up her arm)...."

Unsure. I get the impression Guardians have to be failed orogenes to start with for the Guardian thing to work. Not sure what happens to a Still like Tonkee.

Interlude
The narrator unmasks himself. "You know what I am, you think, both with your thinking mind and the animal, instinctive part of you. You see a stone body clothed in flesh, and even though you never really believed I was human, you did think of me as a child. You still think it, though Alabaster has told you the truth." OK, it's Hoa.

This is the reason for the 2nd-person narration, then: It's Hoa talking/writing to Essun.

We learn there is a schism among the Stone Eaters. Hoa is an "old one" and quite powerful. There is another faction, with their own powerful old ones. The Rogga are their weapons, or their bane.



Chapter 14 – Essun – you’re invited!
Rennanis is alive, and out conquering. They ambush & kill some Castrima hunters, have a small army in the nearby basin. (Essun views this by merging with the topaz obelisk to look around.)

A Stone Eater appears in Castrima. It seems to have dismembered Hoa. It acts on behalf of Rennanis. Apparently the "other faction" of Stone Eaters. Apparently Stone Eaters can pull their bodies back together using... magic? He offers Castrima's Stills comm status in Rennanis, but the orogenes have to go (die, presumably.)

Looks like a Rennanis/Castrima war is in the offing.

Essun collects all the pieces of Hoa, and drops some of those pieces of stone he eats into what's left of his mouth, and Hoa litterally pulls himself back together, gestating in a stone geode cocoon.



Chapter 15 – Nassun, in rejection
Nassun accompanies Schaffa and another Guardian, Umber, to the Antarctic Fulcrum, which is still full of orogenes. Nassun is surprised to learn that during a Season all orogenes are supposed to be killed. The Guardians that should be at this Fulcrum are mysteriously missing. When the Antarctic Fulcrum orogenes decide to stay alive, a quick fight ensues. Nassun turns them all to stone. Our 5th mass extinction via orogeny.

Nassun is clued in that Mama broke her hand because the Fulcrum training broke hers; that's why Mama is "wrong".

On the way home, it's getting more obvious Schaffa and fellow Guardian Umber are on Nassun meets a Stone Eater, who she names Steel. He applauds her murder of the orogenes at the Antarctic Fulcrum. He also reveals some power over the implant in Schaffa's head.



Chapter 16 – Essun – you meet an old friend, again
Hoa emerges from his cocoon. He's statue-like now, without the veneer of flesh or semblance of a child. He explains there are factions among the Stone Eaters, and the ones who are with Rennanis mainly want all orogenes, and especially Alabaster & Essun, dead. Also, that Stone Eaters were human, once. And, that Hoa was the Stone Eater Syenite found in the buried garnet obelisk at Allia.

It's a good bet the Stone Eaters allied with Rennanis specifically to use it to exterminate orogenes. (even though the node stations around Rennanis still function.) And picking on Castrima probably wasn't a random choice.

The Rennanis offer is causing divisions among the comm. Some Stills are fine with throwing the orogenes under the bus in exchange for some promise of peace. Essun takes Hoa to Ykka to explain all that. They cross their fingers the comm won't take Rennanis's terms.

Chapter 17 – Nassun, versus
Nassun practices her orogeny on living critters in hopes of "curing" Schaffa. But when she's ready, Schaffa balks. If the device (he names it a corestone) is removed, he won't be a Guardian anymore and he will grow old and die quickly, and he won't be able to keep the other guardians, Umber & Nida, from killing her.

Nassun has an argument with Jija ("Daddy"). She admits she likes being an orogene and he can't handle it.



Chapter 18 – Essun – you counting down
The tension in Castima runs high. One of the orogenes, Cutter, ices one of the Stills. A mob forms, Ykka executes Cutter for the crime. Then a Still attacks one of the child orogenes, and Essun turns her to stone. Alabaster "dies," turned entirely to stone, deflecting the rest of Essun's vengeance as his final act.

Essun unilaterally cancels the comm's vote on Rennanis's "offer", takes over as dictator of the comm.



Chapter 19 – Essun – you get ready to rumble
Cute chapter title.

Essun tries negotiation with Renannis. They attack her, and Hoa rescues her.

There seems to be a spy in the comm (or Stone Eaters in the walls?)

Essun takes on the task of dealing with the Rennanis army topside. Ykka shows her how to mesh or network multiple orogenes into a network (the way Alabaster did to Syenite in Allia back in book 1.) Essun then uses that technique to network the orogenes in Castrima to herd the boilbugs into the Renannis army. Nasty.

Essun then uses the same technique to network a hundred or so obelisks, and the attacking army is dead. She then uses the onyx obelisk (which is a cabochon) to network dozens of others. She traps half a dozen Renannis Stone Eaters in Castrima's geode crystals. Then, while she's got a planet-wide network going, she finds Renannis itself and turns everyone there into stone. Our 6th mass extinction. This time with Essun it's not an accidental self-defense gone wild, but like Alabaster's Yumenes Rift eruption, a deliberate and calculated act.

And finally she uses the network of find Nassun.



Interlude
Aftermath: Essun, resting in what's left of Castrima, now has an arm turned to stone. She's becoming Alabaster. Stone Eaters Hoa & Antimony appear, plus a 3rd, made of... alabaster. Huh. So orogenes who turn to stone become Stone Eaters?

With Renannis now empty of living people (but full of statues), the people of Castrima can move there and use Renannis's huge food caches. (Essun the neutron bomb.)



Chapter 20 – Nassun, faceted
Nassun sesses what Essun is doing with the obelisks, and knows Mama is alive.

The Stone Eater she calls Steel appears,

Nassun's fight with Jija/Daddy comes to a head as he tries to kill her and she kills him by stoning.

Steel tells Nassun, “You’ll kill everything you love, eventually. Your mother. Schaffa. All your friends here in Found Moon. No way around it.” Steel enlists Nassun in his cause, and makes explicit what we've already deduced: “The Moon’s coming back, Nassun. It was lost so long ago, flung away like a ball on a paddle-string—but the string has drawn it back. Left to itself, it will pass by and fly off again; it’s done that before, several times now.” “But with the Gate, you can… nudge it.... Instead of letting it pass again, lost and wandering, bring it home. Father Earth’s been missing it. Bring it straight here and let them have a reunion.”

So, Steel wants Nassun to drop the Moon into the Earth, killing everyone, ending all suffering. Nassun seems to buy this suicidal argument. There will now be a struggle for the Obelisk Gate between mother & daughter to decide the trajectory of the Moon.

Andrea wrote: "Actually at this point I want to set up a kind of grid like we had for Lonesome October. We know there are three sides to the war: Father Earth against all the living things, the living things that want to restore the moon and the living things that don't want to restore the moon...."

As far as sides... by the end, it seems Nassun & Essun are in opposition. Steel has convinced Nassun to take the moon & smash it into the Earth. It's not clear that is what Father Earth wants, though it would eliminate all living things.

Alabaster, Antimony & Hoa has convinced Essun to try to recapture the Moon, putting it back in its orbit. Would that satisfy Father Earth? I got the impression from the Corepoint Alabaster described that Father Earth didn't get angry until they drilled a bore hole into his core. Or was that drilling for the purpose of powering the obelisks, just as Alabasters Yumenes Rift is?

May I assume the Stone Eater Nassun calls Steel is the same Stone Eater Essun calls the Gray Man?

The 3rd side is... the original Guardians? They accepted the powers of the corestone, but resist the contamination of Father Earth (and kill any Guardian who succumbs.) They ensure the orogenes "look down" for their orogene (Alabaster's term) so they'd never think of using the Obelisk Gate to either recapture the Moon or use it as an instrument of global extinction. So, they prefer the status quo, with the Seasons, because it leaves them in charge?

Alabaster described only 2 sides of what he said was a 3-sided war:
1st. kill all the people (that includes orogenes & stone eaters.)
2nd. render all people harmless (kill just the orogenes?)
it's up to Antimony to describe the
3rd side: use the Obelisk Gate to recapture the Moon.

Under that definition, I suppose Steel is in group 1 (his proposal to use the Obelisk Gate to erase life is tactical, doesn't put him in 3rd side.)

Which brings us to the uneasy relationship of Schaffa to Umber & Nida. During the event at Meov, Schaffa partially lost control to his corestone, but he seems to still be fighting the contamination. Umber & Nida don't seem to have to fight their corestones; so, are they still in-control Guardians, suspicious that Schaffa has lost it and been subverted, or are they completely subverted by the corestones, doing the bidding of father Earth, and suspicious of Schaffa because they think he's not completely subverted? I think the former, because they seem to continue to prefer orogenes "look down" and dislike the unauthorized curriculum Nassun has embraced.

Feel free to make a grid :)

G33z3r wrote: "Feel free to make a grid :) "

Maybe not so much a grid as a pile of spaghetti noodles...

At the time I posted I thought Steel/Nassun were a status quo pair, meaning keep the moon in it's weird orbit or even let it fly away. Turns out they were really a "wipe everything out" party, including probably Father Earth himself, not sure the planet would survive being hit by the Moon if it was a direct hit. Though a glancing hit might just result in the creation of a new moon, assuming science is correct about the moon being created when the Earth was hit by another protoplanet which was itself destroyed in the process...but that would be a life ending event as the Earth would be more or less turned inside out by that. Would fix that hole though...

G33z3r wrote: "May I assume the Stone Eater Nassun calls Steel is the same Stone Eater Essun calls the Gray Man?"

I went with that assumption based on physical description, and the fact he disappears from Castrima around the time he presents himself to Nassun.


Going to have to find some time to figure out what I do know about the various parties and their natures and purposes to the story, and what are my open questions. The last part of the book really gave a LOT of information, but not in a clear info dump, there was still a lot of showing instead of telling so you need to sort of figure it out all yourself and how everything works together.

I can see why at the end of this book the author writes has she's impressed at people who can write a single focused story across a dozen books, keep track of all the info she's giving the reader in just two books and finishing up in a third must have been a challenge on it's own (plus all authors have more background material that never makes it into the books but they need it for a consistent world building/history)

I really appreciate the chapter summaries! Now that I've finished the first book, I was vaguely interested in the outcome/how Guardians work/what the whole point was. But I doubt I'd read the second book, at least not any time soon. So now I get to know what happens!
The books do seem pretty brutal with all the mass killings/extinctions going on. There is a whole other book to go? Is there going to be anyone left? Or is group 1 (as you put it) going to get their wish?
The Guardians are a rather fascinating concept - they appear so villain-ish initially, it's hard to see them as potentially not-entirely-the-bad-guys.
I'm also curious about the idea of a sentient planet. I can't think of too many other books that have sentient planets that interact so directly with their inhabitants.

Andrea wrote: "G33z3r wrote: "May I assume the Stone Eater Nassun calls Steel is the same Stone Eater Essun calls the Gray Man?"

I went with that assumption based on physical description, and the fact he disappears from Castrima around the time he presents himself to Nassun..."

For most of the book the Nassun story and the Essun story aren't at the same point in time, and it only really synchronizes at the end when Steel appears and Nassun senses the opening of the Obelisk Gate, finally temporally connecting Found Moon to Castrima.

Andrea wrote: "I can see why at the end of this book the author writes has she's impressed at people who can write a single focused story across a dozen books..."

I think comic book writers may have been the first to encounter this problem. "Back in issue 17 Spiderman said he couldn't stick to Teflon, but in issue 82 we see him climbing a giant frying pan.... send me my No Prize!"

Sanderson's efforts in finishing the Wheel of Time must be extra impressive, since he didn't write the first dozen books.

Cat wrote: "The books do seem pretty brutal with all the mass killings/extinctions going on...."

Yes, we started with destroying Yumenes, whose population was later pegged at about 7 million. Then Essun ices part of Tirimo (and as a side-effect destroys their well, dooming the comm in the long term.) Syenite destroys Allia (population around 100,000 if I recall) and then Meov (about a thousand). In this book Nessun ices one comm and turns another to stone, and Essun turns Rennanis's residents to stone, a few, unspecified million (as well as boilbugging an army of a few thousand.)

Our primary characters are killers on a scale exceeded only by Darth Vader. It's taking the idea of flawed character to extreme.

Cat wrote: "I really appreciate the chapter summaries! Now that I've finished the first book, I was vaguely interested in the outcome/how Guardians work/what the whole point was. But I doubt I'd read the second..."

Well, that wasn't my intent. You should read the books! I've been trying dropping a few chapters per day as a way to try to drive & pace discussion. Not convinced that's been successful, but that was the idea.

I’m not doing a re-read but I’ve been following your re-read as a way to re-enjoy the book. So thanks!

Spouse just finished Obelisk Gate actually

Rachel wrote: "I’m not doing a re-read but I’ve been following your re-read as a way to re-enjoy the book. So thanks! "

I've enjoyed my re-read, especially the first book in light of knowing the 2nd-person narration is because it's Hoa narrating to Essun.

G33z3r wrote: "Well, that wasn't my intent. You should read the books!..."

Well, yes... maybe some day I will. But I think it's a book that I need a long gap before I will read the second one. I always like to know what happens next though!

G33z3r wrote: "Our primary characters are killers on a scale exceeded only by Darth Vader. It's taking the idea of flawed character to extreme."

And yet it almost always feels justified in some way. Allia was a mistake, wasn't like Syenite intended to replace the city with a volcano. Renannis felt like it was just survival, though of course it was extreme (the invaders were totally justified though). Yumenes...well he could have opened the rift somewhere less populated it was clearly revenge, but millions will die from the Season regardless, and it was done with the intent to save what remains.

But for sure, listed together, that's a pretty huge death too caused just by our main protagonists!

G33z3r wrote: "I've enjoyed my re-read, especially the first book in light of knowing the 2nd-person narration is because it's Hoa narrating to Essun."

I figured that out part way through the second book (one of the interludes made it really obvious), so it's been Hoa all along? Meaning that Hoa is basically telling Essun's story to Essun herself (including what she was thinking at any point in time which is a bit presumptuous)

Cat wrote: "Well, yes... maybe some day I will. But I think it's a book that I need a long gap before I will read the second one. I a..."

I felt the opposite, there's so much information and so many details to keep track of, the longer between books the less likely I'll remember something that gets set up in the first book but only answered in the last one. In fact if I delayed the reading of the second two I would have definitely re-read the first one again :) For example, at Allia, there was a stone eater inside the broken obelisk and Syenite asked him if he was alright. This one line in the first book comes back in the second in a surprising way (i.e. it's the clue that explains that that stone eater is in fact Hoa)

Andrea wrote: "Rennanis felt like it was just survival, though of course it was extreme (the invaders were totally justified though)...."

Not sure which invaders were justified at what?

Rennanis is a particularly nasty extermination. True, they sent an army of a thousand or so to attack Castrima, to kill the rogga, and probably make the Stills commless. The Stone Eaters (the Grey man brigade) put them up to it. We don't really know the government of Rennanis, whether this little invasion was a popular decision or something the rulers just did (for such a small army, they might not even have made an announcement; or, maybe 90% of Rennanis was in favor of it (why? Castrima didn't have much in the way of food cache.)

But to intentionally with forethought slaughter everyone, women & children, pro-war, anti-war, and don't cares alike, is beyond excessive. It's monstrous.

Andrea wrote: "Yumenes...well he could have opened the rift somewhere less populated it was clearly revenge, but millions will die from the Season regardless, and it was done with the intent to save what remains...."

Alabaster's decision is the most... controversial? radical? I can't think of a word for it.

The Earth has been in this repeating Fifth Seasons cycle for over 10,000 years, period massive die-offs and suffering.

First, Alabaster is opposed to the Imperial system of putting rogga in "wire chairs" at the nodes. Yes, it's horrid to the individual, but it does serve the purpose of keeping the empire relatively stable and minimizing Seasonal effect.

Alabaster has decided to walk away from Omelas.

He learns (through Antimony) of the Moon, and how recapturing it might stop the Seasons for good, how the Obelisk Gate could do it if there was an orogenic energy source.... and so he rips open the Rift, instantly killing 10 million Yumenes and eventually many times that to the resultant season, all for the purpose of trying to recapture the moon. A daring (!?) choice, sacrificing millions now for many more in the long term future of Earth. (Assuming Antimony has been honest with him, and not being manipulative like Steel has been to enlist Nassun in his existential nihilism.)

Andrea wrote: "Cat wrote: "Well, yes... maybe some day I will. But I think it's a book that I need a long gap before I will read the second one...."

I felt the opposite, there's so much information and so many details to keep track of, the longer between books the less likely I'll remember something that gets set up in the first book but only answered in the last one...."

Yeah, I'm with Andrea. I like to read a series as rapidly as possible, or I forget characters, events, dialog, clues, and where I left the remote.

Regarding the moon - an issue that bothered me a lot in the first book. On our planet our tides are linked to the moon... how are there seas with tides and things on this planet if the moon is off gallivanting around the universe? Is there an explanation for this?

G33z3r wrote: "Our primary characters are killers on a scale exceeded only by Darth Vader. It's taking the idea of flawed character to extreme."

That is quite incredible to think, I hadn't really put it into that perspective. And Darth Vader is not meant to be a good guy...

Are ANY of the characters at all bothered by this? About the fact that it is practically genocide?

G33z3r wrote: "Andrea wrote: "Cat wrote: "Well, yes... maybe some day I will. But I think it's a book that I need a long gap before I will read the second one...."

I felt the opposite, there's so much informatio..."

Well, it depends on the series really. Some series I absolutely adore and will speed through them.
Some series though... I need to take a break between books if I liked it but didn't LOVE it (like this series) (and yes sometimes, this means I never actually get around to reading them, but I figure that means that I really didn't care enough), some books I like but I loathe a particular character or villain and need a mental break before picking it up again (I can't think of a specific series, but certainly Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix got thrown across the room more than once, I hate Umbrage with a deep and undying passion), sometimes there is just way WAY too much information and I need to process it (Robin Hobb's Farseer trilogies).
Or, in rare cases, all three reasons... I'm currently up to my 3rd year of my Wheel of Time re-read because I read a few books then need a 9 month break. The middle section of the series bore me, I HATE the Seanchan with a passion second only to Umbrage and there are just way way too many things. If I forget any details, either the story will make it apparent or I'll google it if I'm really curious...

G33z3r wrote: "Andrea wrote: "Rennanis felt like it was just survival, though of course it was extreme (the invaders were totally justified though)...."

Not sure which invaders were justified at what?."

I meant that Essun was justified in boilbugging the invaders of Castrima, after all it was self defense. Wiping out Rennanis though, takes that to a whole other level of "protection". Sure they were the source of the invasion, but after dealing with the current invasion force they might have left them alone, plus what about all the children, etc. That was uncalled for and was pure uncontrolled fury/revenge. We have some characters who need some serious anger management in this book!

Cat wrote: "Regarding the moon - an issue that bothered me a lot in the first book. On our planet our tides are linked to the moon... how are there seas with tides and things on this planet if the moon is off ..."

Were tides specifically mentioned in the books? If not maybe we can assume there are none, if they were mentioned then that would be wrong (though the moon is coming closer so will start having an effect again). The sun itself causes some small tides (the side of the Earth facing the sun will feel a bit more pull), but nothing like the effect the moon has.

Cat wrote: "Are ANY of the characters at all bothered by this? About the fact that it is practically genocide?"

I almost get the feeling that people are so used to mass die-offs they aren't all that impressed even if it's a person intentionally killing everyone. To survive a season you have to harden yourself to kick out the weak and the useless. But still, you'd think there'd be a bit more reaction (note that unless Essun tells people what she did in Rennanis, most won't know about it as it's half a continent away, I think only Hoa knew what she did)

Alabaster does stop Essun from killing people in Castrima who wanted to hurt orogenes though, and it cost him his life, so someone at least wanted to stop mass slaughter under certain conditions.

Cat wrote: "I hate Umbrage with a deep and undying passion"

Not sure I'd go that far, but I'm with you on that one (my real hate are angsty teenagers...which made me dislike Harry more and more as I went along). But then I wanted to keep reading to see Umbrage taken down. Of course in Harry Potter I knew that would definitely happen, but in this book, it's our protagonists that are the ones hard to accept so you may need to see the people you hate succeed! And you'll be stuck with them till the very end.

In truth, I love/hate books more in regards to the worldbuilding than I do the characters. I can see how much great characters can really make me love a book (e.g. Dragonsbane) but usually I can tolerate annoying characters if I really love the world they are in.

Hmm, good question though. What characters do I actually like in this trilogy? I don't like Essun in any of her incarnations, for different reasons in each case. I'm neutral towards Nassun. Alabaster confused me too much, I both liked and disliked him. I guess Hoa? He's pretty alien but I kinda like him, if I had to have a Stone Eater attach themselves to me I kind of appreciate the effort he made to look human, and how even in stone form he's uncomfortable with the thought people might stop liking him. It's kind of sweet and innocent coming from something that's probably as old as the obelisks are. Scared the crud out of me when Syenite first found him in the obelisk though, the image in my head was really terrifying...

Andrea wrote: "Cat wrote: "Regarding the moon - an issue that bothered me a lot in the first book. On our planet our tides are linked to the moon... how are there seas with tides and things on this planet if the moon is off ..."

Were tides specifically mentioned in the books?..."

Since I have these as real books, I can say the word "tide" appears once in the trilogy, in the expression "...tide us over until...". According to my OED (which is not a real book, but I have to admit is kind of fun to use in all its massiveness), "tide" in that expression derives from middle english "betide" which comes from old english "tidan", a period of time, and isn't derived from the moon-induced water flows.

I don't recall any allusion to sea periodic sea level.

Andrea wrote: "note that unless Essun tells people what she did in Rennanis, most won't know about it as it's half a continent away, I think only Hoa knew what she did)..."

Hoa, however, told Lerna, who told the rest of Castrima. He thinks it's great news! "An Equatorial city would have vast storecaches. Enough to last us years.” ... "Intact walls, intact homes, storecaches…" Castrima is planning to move to Rennanis. A city for a few million can probably support a few thousand for a looong time.

When Lerna asks Hoa why he he told them, Hoa replies that Essun will want someplace safe for Nassun.

So I wanted to put some mental notes down on paper (I'm #4 in line at the library for the next book so may be a while) before I forget stuff.

Guardians:

- They are picked up as children and brought to a place called Warrant. Are they failed orogenes (I didn't get that impression)?

- There they have something inserted into their head called a corestone, a kind of small needlelike thing. That procedures puts them into a "chair" similar to the one used for orogenes plugged into nodes.

- The corestone allows them to heal, move faster, be stronger, and live longer/forever. Remove it an they become a regular human again and will grow old and die.

- The corestone also controls them on some level. Seems under normal circumstances it just talks to them or gives them suggestions as to what they should do

- However the corestone can take over the Guardian host at which point another Guardian will forcibly remove the corestone, killing the malfunctioning Guardian.

- But, if another Guardian is not there to do that, the corestone can partially/fully wipe out the personality/memories of the Guardian and he can keep functioning. With partial wiping he will mostly forget who he was and why he does what he does but he's still in control. Not sure what happens if fully wiped. This kind of thing can occur when the Guardian is about to die and can't manage to survive with the corestone taking over

- Who is controlling the corestone? I got the impression it was a direct connection to Father Earth

- Guardians can sess and block orogeny, though do not appear to be able to do orogeny themselves. An orogene may not be able to use orogeny for some time after such an encounter.

- Guardians can draw energy from regular humans (which kills them) or from orogenes (which weakens them). This is done through physical touch (and why Guardians will sometimes remove their shirts to expose more skin)

- Guardians are aware of the Obelisks, and their function (?) and part of their job is to detect if an orogene is starting to interact with obelisks and dispose of them

- Guardians have a kind of knife that will immobilize an orogene, preventing them from using their powers and causing them great pain

- Orogenes can sometimes kill their Guardian (did Alabaster explain how he got rid of his? Did his stone eater leave his Guardian literally six feet under?) but generally this is very difficult to do, nearly unheard of.

- The corestone causes them pain, especially if they resist it. Because smiling releases endorphins, Guardians do the creepy smile thing a lot. (I'm not convinced smiling helps that much honestly, pretty sure when I get my migraines they would go away just because I put a smile on my face...but kind of nice Jemisin had a reason for it and not that they are like creepy dolls, makes us more sympathetic to them)

- In the three sided war, it seems the Guardians want to keep the status quo. Getting the moon back requires orogenes use obelisks (the "fix it" side), and though they could, Guardians don't go around killing everyone they meet (the "kill everyone side") so they must be in the "keep going the way things are going" side. Though Schaffa, partially free from the corestone, is on his own side (as he's letting Nassun use the obelisks, it must be either the fix it or wipe it out side). Not sure the motivations of the other two Guardians at Found Moon.

- Given the corestone is a "needle-like" thing, I suspect it's the same thing found inside the pit where it looks an obelisks fits inside of the Yumenes, also the thing that Tonkee discovered at Castrima that required her arm to be removed and reconnected. But this is just a wild guess.


Did I miss something important? Did I get something wrong?

Andrea wrote: "Guardians:
- They are picked up as children and brought to a place called Warrant. Are they failed orogenes (I didn't get that impression)?..."


Here's the passage from Chapter 11 (Schaffa. lying down) that causes me to think they are either failed orogenes:

Of Warrant, and black-walled rooms carved into layered volcanic rock. Gentle hands, pitying voices. Schaffa doesn’t remember the hands’ or voices’ owners. He is helped into a wire chair. (No, the nodes were not the first to use these.) This chair is sophisticated, automated, working smoothly even though something about it seems old to Schaffa’s eye. It whirs and reconfigures and turns him until he is suspended facedown beneath bright artificial lights, with his face trapped between unyielding bars and the nape of his neck bared to the world. His hair is short. Behind and above him he hears the descent of ancient mechanisms, things so esoteric and bizarre that their names and original purposes have long been lost. (He remembers learning, around this time, that original purposes can be perverted easily.) Around him he can hear the snuffling and pleading of the others brought with him to this place—children’s snuffling and pleading. He is a child in this memory, he realizes. Then he hears the other children’s screams, followed by and mingling into whirring, cutting sounds. There is also a low watery hum that he will never hear again (yet it will be very familiar to you and any other orogene who has ever been near an obelisk), because from this moment forth his own sessapinae will be repurposed, made sensitive to orogeny and not to the perturbations of the earth.

(Emphasis added)

I interpret this as: Schaffa was once an orogene (and, perhaps, had communed with an obelisk, or possibly just been near one) and that his orogenic connection to the earth was (using ancient deadciv tech, the implant, the corestone) transformed into the Guardian's ability to manipulate orogeny itself (thus the Guardian's ability to detect orogeny, draw lifeforce from it, and cut an orogene off from orogeny.)

It is, I think, what Schaffa, in a moment of compassion, spared Damaya from (in Fifth Season, Chapter 17: Damaya in finality. I think having seen the corestone pulled from Timay, and/or having seen the socket, Damaya should have been sent to Warrant instead of being tested for the first ring.