Flights of Fantasy discussion

The winner of the February 2019 book of the month is the Fantasy The Golem and the Jinni by Helene Wecker.

This book has been in print since April 2013 so there should be many different editions available. Please check your local library and/or favorite book retailer.

Please remember to use spoiler tags < spoiler > < /spoiler > when discussing.

Some things to think of while reading:

Personhood is a moral concept, related to the notion of individuality. Very roughly, a person is someone who matters in his or her own right, and who therefore deserves our highest moral consideration. But what makes someone matter?

Enlightenment philosopher Immanuel Kant claimed that personhood is grounded in reason. We have an inviolable moral status insofar as we are rational creatures: ones that are capable of giving and receiving reasons when considering how to act.

SNIP

Kant’s conception of a person goes a long way toward showing why humans are important and what our importance requires of us as we interact with one another. But notice that there could be non-human rational creatures, and not all humans are rational creatures.

So, in the Kantian sense, some non-human things could be persons, and some humans are not persons...

I read the first chapter last night and was hooked. I read two more this morning, and I can't wait to get some time, later on, to really delve in.

Nyssa over here got me thinking it was February already...

Ala wrote: "Nyssa over here got me thinking it was February already..."

LOL, so did I, for a second.

Oh no! So sorry.
Between work, school, etc. plus the fact that I do not read as quickly as most of you, I tend to give myself extra time for group reads when I can.

LOL nothing to be sorry about. Just posting my confusion.

LOL

Happy Friday, February 1st! :D


I am almost 2/3 of the way through (18 chapters) The Golem and the Jinni.

Do any of you remember the old 50s /60s technicolor cartoons where they show a couple dancing - and at first, it looks like the two kids are just bopping along, but then they pan down, and the kids’ legs and feet are going in every direction, looking like a tangled mess? {I was trying to find a clip online, but had no idea how to search for it].

Anyway, that’s the feeling I’m getting from this novel (but in a good way). If you’re just casually looking in from outside, everything seems calm, almost prosaic but once you peer underneath, it’s frenzied and chaotic.

Each character has a purpose, even if it's not clear in the beginning as to what; and we never seem to meet a character just once - they come back, even if only for a moment.

huh

That sounds kinda interesting

Umm... Well... my PLAN was to start this today, but then my buddy lent me a book via kindle, which has a deadline, so I have to prioritize that, but then I will start this one. :)

I haven't read any of the posts up to this point, because I like going in with a clean slate, but I should start in a couple days and then I can join the conversation.

Becky wrote: "Umm... Well... my PLAN was to start this today, but then my buddy lent me a book via kindle, which has a deadline, so I have to prioritize that, but then I will start this one. :)

I haven't read ..."

Darn you and your valid reasons for not reading this right now!

LOL Sorry!

Alright, finished my reread.

Been a few years, but I still really enjoyed this one. Reminds me of People of the Book in a way, with the view of the lives of these characters and histories.

I’m really enjoying the audiobook. I read faster than them, but this way I can knit while reading. The narrator is good.

Enjoying the story a lot. The comparison to People of the Book really excites me. I loved that book so much.

Denae wrote: "The comparison to People of the Book really excites me. I loved that book so much. "

Ditto!

*wanders through thread, looking for conversation*

Um...

So, I read this book back in 2013. (Wow - was it that long already?)

I gave it 2-2.5 stars, so, clearly, didn't love it... but I don't remember much about it to discuss, either.

Um... I remember feeling like it was slow but also didn't really develop the characters enough for my tastes. Or I just didn't care for the characters much. I would've liked more about the different cultures then we got.

I found the reveal kind of convenient, and the end confrontation anti-climactic and I was annoyed with how it ended.

It was kinda slow, but that's actually part of what I liked about it. There was no rush, no imminent threat. Just a leisurely walk through the communities and learning bits and pieces of the people that made them.

I think I only truly cared for half of the titular duo. (view spoiler)[Ahmad was pretty much a dick. I get why, but he still grated on my nerves at times. (hide spoiler)]

I'm so-so on the ending. I mean, it works and all but it was kinda... eh. (view spoiler)[I would've rather have had Schaalman turn against his previous lives instead of trying to prove himself better than the rest. (hide spoiler)]

I guess it's more the journey for me, with this book, then the destination.

Ala wrote: "I guess it's more the journey for me, with this book, then the destination. "

And I've had books that were like that with me, and I wouldn't mind the leisurely walk through the communities - but I think I wished we actually saw/learned more about the communities while we were there.

Like, I'm all for the slow tourist route, if we get to delve a bit beyond the surface. I guess I just didn't feel like we got there, with this book.

I agree that Ahmad was (view spoiler)[a dick, but I also felt like he had the most character growth. Re the end, I had wished that the golem would find the strength to go against her script... (hide spoiler)]

I can agree that having more of the communities would've been great. As that's one of my favorite aspects of this type of book/setting.

Agreed on Ahmad. As to your spoiler (view spoiler)[I would've been fine with Chava breaking her script too. Her or Schaalman breaking out of their "nature" was something that I didn't realize I wanted until this reread. (hide spoiler)] Maybe that will be addressed in book 2.

This just improved my commute. I’ve been sick this week and haven’t been able to take the train. I’m really enjoying the back story of the man who made the golem. So far I am enjoying her parts more than the jinni’s.

Ala wrote: "Maybe that will be addressed in book 2. "


You'll have to let me know...

Ala wrote: "It was kinda slow, but that's actually part of what I liked about it. There was no rush, no imminent threat. Just a leisurely walk through the communities and learning bits and pieces of the people that made them."

^This!! I love how much thought and energy went into incorporating the people and the city around the main characters.

I liked Chava! (view spoiler)[ I was okay with her being her, until the end when I realized ... oh crap!!! NO!! (hide spoiler)] I understand the desire for the change. I was hoping that it would come (view spoiler)[ (1) with her marriage to Michael. The fact that she chose him would tweak something in her for good; (2) with the death of Schaalman, but of course, that never happened. (hide spoiler)]

I really can't see Schaalman being anyone but himself. (view spoiler)[He was too corrupted from the start. (hide spoiler)]

I had a love/hate relationship with Ahmad. He was very sympathetic one minute and a total ass the next.

Did anyone else want to smack Michael?

Michael was such an(view spoiler)[ idjit (hide spoiler)].

As for Schaalman, (view spoiler)[His first incarnation was evil, but every single other one started out well. I'd have loved to see Schaalman realize that everything that happened to him was because of Malik and then decide it was time for payback.

Or do, really, anything else besides just going along with the "gain all the power!" plan (hide spoiler)]

So that’s how his name is spelled! That’s the problem with audiobooks.

Oh man, the ice cream man’s story... I barely noticed an hour in traffic because it was so gripping and so sad.

Ahmad seems like kind of a dick, and based on the comments here I suspect that’s how he will remain.

Ala wrote: "As for Schaalman, (view spoiler)"


I see your point. (view spoiler)[His was a case where with great knowledge came great responsibility, and he blew it. He evolved in power, not wisdom. (hide spoiler)]

And while (view spoiler)[Ahmed did change some, he's still Ahmed (sans original name) (hide spoiler)]

Maybe, this book was supposed to demonstrate (view spoiler)[ how we tend to stay close to our true nature regardless of the circumstances. (hide spoiler)]

Hopefully, that means (view spoiler)[the next book will demonstrate true growth and change for the better, versus the risk of destruction - I'm looking at you Schaalman!! (hide spoiler)]

Nicki wrote: " I could take a Dickensian level of detail... "


Dear gods, no.

Denae wrote: "Oh man, the ice cream man’s story... I barely noticed an hour in traffic because it was so gripping and so sad.."

Ice Cream Saleh. I love his story. Ending Spoiler:(view spoiler)[I was sad seeing him go down at the end. He went out like an OG though. (hide spoiler)]

Nicki wrote: " I could take a Dickensian level of detail... "

I'm with Colleen. Ew.

Nyssa, agreed.

Ala wrote: "Ice Cream Saleh. I love his story. Ending Spoiler:(view spoiler)"

So true!! Especially after almost reconsidering. (view spoiler)[I'm sad that he won't be around for book #2. I had hopes for him (hide spoiler)]

Jinni’s gonna get himself lynched.

OK! I'm finally starting!

OK I'm like 3% in and we already have a case of misleading book description.

"Chava is a golem, a creature made of clay, brought to life by a disgraced rabbi who dabbles in dark Kabbalistic magic and dies at sea on the voyage from Poland."

Uhhh... no. The disgraced rabbi who made the Golem did not die at sea. The man who ORDERED the Golem died at sea.

Lame.

Through 15%: I'm really enjoying it so far. I am liking the multiple storylines, and the shifting between past and present. I'm also really liking the characters so far. If it stays this good and interesting, it'll likely be a 4-5 star book.

A couple things:
(view spoiler)[ Mehmoud's story is heartbreaking. I was all tearing up as I read it. How horrible for him to lose everything, even the ability to LOOK at people, to connect with them on such a basic level while trying to help someone else - and then to lose his family and home on top of that. Damn. So, obviously I'm hoping that the point of this is that Ahmad-Jinni is going to somehow help him dislodge the ifrit from his brain so he can have a life again.

Yehudah's story is interesting. I am not a religious person, so I don't really get the whole religious training thing, but it's interesting to me how quickly one loses faith. One dream, and he's like "Welp, the Dark Side said they have cookies, soooo..." I mean, yeah, he went on the whole "quest to discover my sins" journey, but all he really found was self-loathing and anger. And apparently a really resentful miller's daughter. True, being called a whore for having sex with the hired help, by the hired help you just had sex with, isn't polite, but falsely claiming rape and putting him in prison for FIFTEEN YEARS is fucking wrong. That made me SO MAD as I read it. You don't steal someone's freedom for a decade and a half because they called you a mean name. Gah! Is it wrong of me to hope she gets hers eventually? (hide spoiler)]

Becks, regarding Yehudah (view spoiler)[He was the perfect Rabbi, the others joked about him being the Messiah, everything he did was in service to his faith.

So having a vision of Paradise where you find out you're barred from Heaven has got to be a big blow.

He knew he hadn't done anything wrong, but still tried to figure out if maybe there was something that would explain his fall from grace. When nothing presented itself, of course he'd go off the deep end. I would. If you're damned anyway, might as well do whatever you want and earn it. (hide spoiler)] At least, that's how I took it.

Ala, regarding Yehudah - (view spoiler)[ I do get what you're saying... but something about it just strikes me the wrong way. Something feels off about it.

I mean, to me it almost seems a little Job-like, a little test of his faith, and he failed immediately after seeing a dream. A dream. I get that to some, that may be real enough, but... I guess what bothers me is that it seems to me that he never truly had faith to begin with if it's so easily cast aside.

I mean, the concept of redemption exists in Judaism (and please, if I get details wrong, please someone correct me, because my knowledge is very patchy here.) so, for him to see that dream, and think, as a potentially messianic-level rabbi, that his sin, whatever it is, is unforgivable and irredeemable, what does that mean for the rest of his people, who are likely to be less holy and less prepared than he? Does he believe that the ability to fix one's mistakes and redeem oneself is there, or not? By his actions - leaving instead of talking to his teachers, or studying, or trying to improve himself in some way, he seems to be saying that he doesn't believe in redemption. Or maybe just not for him.

So it makes me think that perhaps his sin is the lack of faith, and it just seemed like a really fast switch from pious student to "Eff this, I'm outta here." (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[I think his Faith had to have been extreme for the vision to rock him so hard. The dream was his proof that his Faith was true, a paradise and a God existed, but for some reason he wasn't worthy.

I mean, he's like 19 years old. Sheltered from the rest of the world. Knows nothing but religious schooling. And God just straight up told him he didn't belong. What's a teachers words compared to God? He knew he was screwed. God said he was screwed. No one's gonna argue against God and win.

So trying to find some way to postpone the inevitable makes sense to me. Plus the way he was led to the burned down synagogue was either divine intervention, fate or destiny. So he was going that route regardless. (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[I just went back and re-read this section, and yeah... it's described as him being uber pious and devoted. BUT... if his faith was extreme, then the sudden rejection of it is even more jarring to me.

If his faith in God is strong, and if he was following God's teachings, then he should have been good to go. Otherwise, what's the point of following and dedicating one's life to religion? If God can just arbitrarily single out people to fuck over (as they do), why worship him? What's the benefit?

It's a lose/lose scenario... he's either got faith so strong that he believes that God's rejected him entirely and thus walks away from his faith, or he lacked enough faith to believe in the teachings he'd so far dedicated his life to that he could be redeemed for whatever his sin was.

Regarding the way he found the burned synagogue, it does say that it was either divine or demonic intervention.

Anyway, it just seemed like a very quick turnaround to wake up from a dream and renounce the life he'd been working toward. If that was his destiny, it seems like a really cruel way to get him there, though I guess that bitterness would likely be the point.

Ugh. This is why I'm atheist. It's much simpler. (hide spoiler)]

I understand what you're saying Becky, but I saw it closer to the way Ala did, which was why my initial response was: (view spoiler)[I really can't see Schaalman being anyone but himself. He was too corrupted from the start. (hide spoiler)] I mean even a 19-year-old kid can be saved from himself, but 1. Boys at that age were considered men then, and 2. There really was no one to pull him back from the brink. (view spoiler)[He was doomed. Therefore, his vast knowledge led to self-preservation instead of civic duty, or even redemption (hide spoiler)].

OK well, I'm only about 30% in and I don't know of any developments in his storyline beyond the one I've been talking about so, I may be proven wrong. BUT... (view spoiler)[WAS he too corrupted from the start? Because it seems to me that if not for the vision that he had, he'd have led a very, VERY different life. He'd have finished his rabbi training, become ordained, led a congregation or taught others... etc. He'd have lived a life within the faith.

It's possible that by "corrupted" you mean curious, thirsty for knowledge of all of the "off-limits" knowledge that he found at the synagogue, and that might be true. He might've gone looking for knowledge that would have really changed him and altered his path... but I'm still left wondering - then why not let it go that way? Why, if that's his pre-determined destiny, to get this knowledge and use it, would "God" go out of the way to do it THIS way? So that he's not conflicted or doesn't hesitate? He's like "Screw it. I'm damned anyway, might as well."

I just don't understand faith or religion at all. I overthink and question far too much to just go along with it's inconsistency and whimsy. (hide spoiler)]

1. I'm sorry, I forgot you were still early in the book.
2. You are asking excellent questions.
3. I can't say anything else without significant spoilers.

No worries. :)
That actually makes me think that there will be further explanation about this... which I'm totally on board with.

Nyssa wrote: "1. I'm sorry, I forgot you were still early in the book.
2. You are asking excellent questions.
3. I can't say anything else without significant spoilers."

Ditto.

Though (full spoilers)(view spoiler)[I find myself wondering the same things as Becks. He could have led a pious and religiously faithful life, done nothing wrong while also doing a lot of good if only he hadn't let the dream get to him.

But because of something beyond his own control, he was damned from the start. He was born screwed by no fault of his own.

I think my problem with the character is the idea of reincarnation itself. The idea of one person being screwed over in life because of the actions of some completely different person.

It's probably why I really, really wanted Schaalman to say fuck it to ibn Malik and end it all right there... (hide spoiler)]

Ala wrote: "Though (full spoilers)(view spoiler) ."

If he had acted any differently during the story, I would agree. (Major spoiler included) (view spoiler)[But he was his same manipulating, self-serving, con artist, ass hat self throughout the entire story, so any show of redemption would have, personally, shocked the hell out of me.
I think the only reason he helped anyone was to gain knowledge, money & various experiences while also satisfying curiosity. Chava, for instance, was a personal challenge just to see if he could. (hide spoiler)]

About 50%. The conversations about Yehuda’s (view spoiler)[crisis of faith are interesting to me. I grew up a devout fundie and went from that to atheist pretty much overnight with less prompting than he had. I deeply believed the things I had been told. I had studied the Bible and theology. I even believe God had personally called me to be a missionary. Then I started applying critical thinking skills I had previously only applied to other branches of theology to the entire question of God’s existence and realized I didn’t believe it anymore. It happens in real life, so it doesn’t seem far fetched to me in a fantasy.

Way he gets through Ellis Island is a dick move. (hide spoiler)]

40%ish... Is Arbeely (view spoiler)[Catholic? Celebrating Christmas, going to Mass, taking Communion... I had assumed that he was Muslim. In fact I thought it was mentioned that he was Muslim. I'm confused now. (hide spoiler)]

Becky wrote: "40%ish... Is Arbeely [spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[Most of Little Syria is Christian, including him. They reference the church in various places. Iirc, religious persecution of Christians is one of the things making present day Syria such a clusterfuck. Syrian Christianity is ancient and has always been more prevalent than in many of its neighboring countries. (hide spoiler)]

Ok I figured out my confusion. (view spoiler)[It's Mahmoud Saleh that is Muslim, not Arbeely. I mixed them up. (hide spoiler)]
Carry on!

Denae wrote: "About 50%. The conversations about Yehuda’s (view spoiler)[crisis of faith are interesting to me. I grew up a devout fundie and went from that to atheist pretty much overnight with less prompting than he had. I deeply believed the things I had been told. I had studied the Bible and theology. I even believe God had personally called me to be a missionary. Then I started applying critical thinking skills I had previously only applied to other branches of theology to the entire question of God’s existence and realized I didn’t believe it anymore. It happens in real life, so it doesn’t seem far fetched to me in a fantasy. " (hide spoiler)]

Now that I'm at about 50%... I'm revising my opinion. (view spoiler)[ I don't think that he lost faith, and agree with Ala that his faith is SO strong that it has shaped everything that he has ever done... if only because he believed that vision to the point that he would do anything within his power to avoid that fate... except apparently stop believing in it. The only thing lost was his dedication and discipline to serving the faith and others and whatever unselfishness he may have had. From the dream to now, he's only been out for himself and to further his goal of never being denied entry to heaven, which means never dying, according to his belief.

But regarding your comments, Denae... I don't think that the situation that you described going through is odd at all. You said it yourself - you applied the same criteria used for ruling out OTHER religions to your own, and found it lacking. I think that's exactly the sort of epiphany moment that makes sense to me, and that's why I found Yehudah's to feel off somehow, because he didn't really LOSE his faith... he just converted it to something ugly and selfish. But we don't really know that in the first part of his story.

I did not grow up religious, so I don't have the experience of truly "losing" my faith, since I never really had any to begin with. I used to accept belief in God as just the way things were, but it wasn't personal to me or something I ever even thought about. It was a vague concept, but never really BELIEVED in any sure or strong way. I'd have called myself agnostic, I guess. Then the older I got, the more I found flawed, the more I questioned and the more OK I was with calling myself atheist instead of agnostic... but for me, there was not any defining moment... it's just been a gradual shift off the fence to the atheist side. lol (hide spoiler)]