The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

VII. THE GUEST
VIII. THE PYNCHEON OF TO-DAY
IX. CLIFFORD AND PHOEBE
X. THE PYNCHEON GARDEN
XI. THE ARCHED WINDOW

This second section continues to set up the contrast between the old world and the new, between fresh young Phoebe and the older and decaying Clifford and Hepzibah. We learn of the unfortunate parallel's between the living Judge Pyncheon and the dead Colonel and of their unpleasant and hard characters, and that Phoebe isn't fooled by the judge's seemingly benign exterior.

We meet Clifford for the first time, and then learn that he is Hepzibah's beloved brother, recently released from prison where he had been sent for the murder of his uncle. I was somewhat saddened to learn that poor Hepzibah had never even had a romantic hope, but that the miniature which she treasured was in fact the face of her brother.

The section ends with the stressing of the Judge's power over his relatives, his strength in contrast to their weakness.

At first I thought there was a ghost in Hepzibah's parlour (in chapter 6) but it turned out to be Clifford - who is indeed a kind of living ghost with his long white hair and absent manner, as if there is "a dim veil of decay betwixt him and the world." My sympathy for Hepzibah is growing, with her creaky efforts to comfort her brother, and her unexpected courage when she bars Judge Pyncheon from seeing him.

It's interesting the way in which Hawthorne tells us what to think about the characters, so we know what Clifford is like from the outset, rather than deducing it gradually from the story as a modern author would probably make us do. But there are still mysteries to be answered: what happened to Clifford? And what part did the Judge play?

In the long descriptions of the garden and the street in these chapters we seem to be invited to see them as if through Clifford's eyes, with his wonder in every tiny detail: everything is new. But I don't know if other people found them a little slow. I enjoyed the hens, but I'm ready now for something else to happen...

Emma-good point about NH telling us what to think rather than simply describing the scene-perhaps that is what jarred a bit about the style-the very clear narrator voice telling us what is happening and speculating about what is going on.

The author describes the physical setting in great detail. He does tell us what to think about the people, but in a way that is almost like a gossip talking about people and inviting you to share her views.

Emma wrote: "At first I thought there was a ghost in Hepzibah's parlour (in chapter 6) but it turned out to be Clifford - who is indeed a kind of living ghost with his long white hair and absent manner, as if t..."

Yes, in the chapters (The Pyncheon Garden and The Archway) giving us more insight to Clifford, the pace was slow, but I found it beneficial while reading. I think the pace is slow for the sole reason that we are absorbing all the details of the area and New England society through the senses of Clifford, an imbecile. What did you like about the hens?

Casceil wrote: "The author describes the physical setting in great detail. He does tell us what to think about the people, but in a way that is almost like a gossip talking about people and inviting you to share ..."

I love in your post how you refer to the narrator as a "gossip," you're so right, he is doing just that. It seems gossipy more so now in this section; especially, with some of illicit details about Colonel Pyncheon's bedside manner coming into light and Judge Pyncheon's missed kiss while attempting to greet Phoebe. I found myself laughing out loud at Judge Pyncheon's failed attempt at kissing Phoebe, in fact, these five chapters contained some real comic relief in areas: the two aforementioned incidents and in Chapter 11 when Hepzibah screams at Clifford for stepping up onto the window sill exclaiming if he's crazy..Clifford answers as a matter of fact, that he hardly knew?! IT just played out really dry in my mind. LOL!

I am thoroughly enjoying this second section in THotSG. As another reader has mentioned, the pace of some sections as well as the movement of character is becoming consistent with certain story lines. For example, in Chapter 7, from the beginning we notice that there is something wrong; a foreboding air and I love how the anticipation continues to build from when we first see Hepzibah in the kitchen to observing a third place setting at the table. Hepzibah's movements throughout the kitchen scene was similar to being on an emotional roller coaster for me. We meet her while she is completely engrossed in a cookbook and then all of sudden she's up and about flagging down a fishmonger, laughing and crying, she's not great in the kitchen to begin with, but she cooks the fish ...as if her own heart was on the gridiron. After all this excitement, so to speak, we finally meet Clifford who is so forlorn, it just seemed as if Hepzibah's energies preparing for the morning did not quite match the disappointing character/appearance of the mysterious third diner.

The presence of Clifford...is it not interesting that this house which was inhabited by one feeble old woman for so long, is now home to four people total? Clifford's past is of great intrigue and importance to the progression of the story, but I am actually quite curious about his future.

Obviously, having spent decades in prison, his acclimating to the real world will take time, but I'm left unsettled by his behavior as he is slowly coming out of his unstable state of mind...He's becoming vile. I'm finding hints of callousness in him...From his abhorrence of Hepzibah's aged being, to the conversation with Uncle Venner at the garden party (it was about having his own plan for Uncle Venner) and his demanding his happiness-the overall tone in each of these instances was not the most humble in nature. I find that he is becoming the embodiment of old Colonel Pyncheon.

In Chapter 11, I found For what other dungeon is so dark as one's own heart! What jailor so inexorable as one's self! to be prolific... This is said after Clifford and Hepzibah attempt to leave the house to attend a Sabbath service but are stunted by the sight of the open world and progress no further than the front door of the house. Both Hepzibah and Clifford are prisoners of their own mind, not so much the house-their mindset leaves them vulnerable.

I have two questions...Does anybody know why the words "Past, Future and Now" are capitalized in Chapter 8, it was in reference to Clifford

AND

I need help understanding this next line...It was the Eden of a thundersmitten Adam, who had fled for refuge thither out of the same dreary and perilous wilderness into which the original Adam was expelled. Thank you!

Ami wrote: "In Chapter 11, I found For what other dungeon is so dark as one's own heart! What jailor so inexorable as one's self! to be prolific... This is said after Clifford and Hepzibah attempt to leave the house to attend a Sabbath service..."

I found this section really moving as well; the way they feel the eye of the world is on them and even the sunshine makes them quail. Yet on going back inside, the house seems still more oppressive after their glimpse of sunshine and freedom.

As to the Eden and Adam reference - where exactly is it? I must have missed it, and I'm reading this on a Kindle which makes it hard to just flip through... :(

Emma wrote: "Ami wrote: "In Chapter 11, I found For what other dungeon is so dark as one's own heart! What jailor so inexorable as one's self! to be prolific... This is said after Clifford and Hepzibah attempt ..."

I'm so glad you responded to this, Emma! I woke up this morning thinking about it some more and was going to add to my previous thread, but I might as well just do it here...But first

Yes! The house did seem more oppressive-It was closing in on them! Do you think having a predetermined notion of the Pyncheon past leaves Hepzibah and Clifford vulnerable to the curse? Whereas, Phoebe, who has a certain naiveté about the Pyncheon legacy and who is "annoyed" at the fact something tragic happened to Clifford, instead of being intrigued by it, is somewhat protected by not knowing?

However, even she is not able to completely withstand the effect of having what little knowledge she has come to know. Hawthorne says Phoebe's happy disposition brought a forgotten light into the house after a very long time of continuous darkness. She carries the weight of the house and its dismal inhabitants on her shoulders, Yet, it must be said, her petals sometimes drooped a little, in consequence of the heavy atmosphere about her Chapter 9. I wonder if her temperament will undergo further changes, antipodal to her current state, as she finds out more about Clifford/Pyncheons.

Emma, the Adam and Eve reference Hawthorne makes takes place in
"The Pyncheon Garden" chapter 10. It occurs after we read about Hepzibah's tears of joy and sorrow in relation to the ebb and flow of Clifford's instability. Right before the Adam and Eve portion, Hawthorne implores his readers to be understanding, The author needs great faith in his readers sympathy; else he hesitates to give details so minute.... Does that help at all?

Re the Adam and Eve reference - thanks, Ami, I've found it now! ("The Pyncheon Garden" is chapter 10 in my ebook version.)

Unfortunately, like you, I'm not really any the wiser. The quiet, unremarkable garden is presumably as restful and enchanting as Eden to Clifford in his feeble "thunder-smitten" state; but I don't understand quite what is meant by "the same dreary and perilous wilderness" which both Clifford and Adam are meant to have experienced. Unless it just means that they were both cast out for having sinned. (??)

Emma wrote: "Re the Adam and Eve reference - thanks, Ami, I've found it now! ("The Pyncheon Garden" is chapter 10 in my ebook version.)

Unfortunately, like you, I'm not really any the wiser. The quiet, unremar..."

Emma, it's Chapter 10 in my book as well (I changed it in the above thread), I don't know what I was thinking this morning?

No, I think you're onto something here. Another question...Did Adam attempt to come back to Eden after he was expelled from it?

Ami wrote: "Emma wrote: "Re the Adam and Eve reference - thanks, Ami, I've found it now! ("The Pyncheon Garden" is chapter 10 in my ebook version.)

Unfortunately, like you, I'm not really any the wiser. The q..."

I read the Eden reference as the idea that Clifford has found his little bit of heaven in his quiet garden after having been cast out of his idyllic youth and into prison, and needs to constantly convince himself that he is really there.

I don't know if Adam ever attempted a return to Eden but I recall the way was blocked by an angel with a flaming sword.

@Lynnm

Holgrove's peculiarity and duality continue to surface in this current section too...

Chapter 8 (The Pyncheon of Today): Upon meeting Judge Pyncheon, Phoebe realizes that he is the man whose image was depicted in the miniature Holgrove showed her in the garden (Chapter 6 Maule's Well). Holgrove originally laughs at Phoebe for being unable to distinguish between the dated fashion of Colonel Pyncheon, whom she originally thought she was looking at, to the modern day accoutrement of the Judge in the miniature. Holgrove, oddly enough, even tells her she will meet him one day very soon.

Chapter 10 (The Pyncheon Garden): In this chapter a great light has been cast upon the dual personality of Holgrove. In the garden, he instigates a conversation with Clifford out of consideration for his well-being, but Hawthorne quickly points out ...in his all observant eyes, there was, now and then, an expression not sinister, but questionable; as if he had some other interest in the scene than a stranger... Holgrove knows too much for an ordinary stranger and he reveals tidbits, here and there, but what is his motivation? Again, he is not perceived as having cruel intentions, just strange.

I know I said earlier, I thought Holgrave was from the Maule lineage...But could he also be the other cousin, the one we thought was traveling Europe, currently under a disguise? It's the only reason I could think of as to why Hepzibah would allow him to live in the house...She knows of his identity. I'm probably reaching here and all over the place...Ignore me, please. :)

Frances wrote: "Ami wrote: "Emma wrote: "Re the Adam and Eve reference - thanks, Ami, I've found it now! ("The Pyncheon Garden" is chapter 10 in my ebook version.)

Unfortunately, like you, I'm not really any the ..."

I've read this quote over and over again...All I can come up with is that it has nothing to do with the Adam and Eve story other than the basic knowledge surrounding them, per se, but more to do with how Adam would behave if having the option to come back to Eden- A "thundersmitten refuge seeking" Adam versus the "original" Adam who was cast out of Eden.

So this in turn would relate to Clifford because he has found refuge and returned to the "idyllic" Eden/House and Garden, but knowing what he knows from the first time living at the House, will he approach living there now differently?

I made an observation of how Clifford is slowly adopting the likeness to Colonel Pyncheon earlier, so I don't think Clifford's second-coming (is this the right term) is going to go very well.

Ami wrote: "Frances wrote: "Ami wrote: "Emma wrote: "Re the Adam and Eve reference - thanks, Ami, I've found it now! ("The Pyncheon Garden" is chapter 10 in my ebook version.)

Unfortunately, like you, I'm not..."

Maybe I am reading too much into this but could this quote refer to a different or alternative Eden. The Eden of the thundersmitten Adam perhaps was not as perfect as the original.

Odette wrote: "Ami wrote: "Frances wrote: "Ami wrote: "Emma wrote: "Re the Adam and Eve reference - thanks, Ami, I've found it now! ("The Pyncheon Garden" is chapter 10 in my ebook version.)

Unfortunately, like ..."

Well, that's certainly an idea to mull over. With this being said, can you help me relate it to the story in the present keeping with the "two Edens" theory? I came to my analysis by making note of how Hawthorne describes Adam in two manners; thunder-smitten and original, but only describes Eden as one where Adam was expelled. A before and after of Adam, so to speak, or in the case of this quote, an after and before? I can draw a parallel to Clifford's current situation this way.

Boy, this one has been a real doozy...:)

I found the Eden reference strange as well. As far as I can remember, Adam was never allowed to return to Eden. All of humankind was expelled.

The only thing I can think of is that humankind has created a very un-Edenlike world, and that people such as Clifford, who see the beauty in the world and don't have the ambitions and other worldly characteristics within them, must seek to create their own very small and imperfect Eden as an escape.

We still don't know much about Clifford. He went to prison for murder, and yet, Hawthorne treats his character kindly. Why? I have my theories, and they all center on the Judge.

Three points that I wanted to make:

One, I was a bit offended for poor Hepzibah. Yes, she has a perpetual scowl, but the fact that Clifford doesn't want to look at her because he wants to only see "beauty" in the world, is rather mean. What about inner beauty? Hepzibah is a good woman, and has spent her life pitying the fate of her brother.

Two, I like Phoebe, I really do. But, in Chapter 11, I found it incredibly annoying when Hawthorne positively gushes over her: "She was like a prayer..." It's that typical (and now peculiar) way that male authors either set up their female characters as either villainous/ugly or saintly/beautiful. Most real women are somewhere in between.

Three, I loved the passage on the Italian boy and his miniature figures. It reminded me a bit of Thoreau. The idea that people are constantly busy, seeming to continually work, and yet for all their movement, they don't accomplish anything and remain the same.

Lynnm I completely agree about being annoyed at Clifford (and by extension Hawthorne) for disliking Hepzibah's company on account of her appearance-she should have been able to find refuge from the world's unkindness in the love of her family, particularly as she was herself a kind woman.

Secondly, while he was right to gush over Phoebe, it should have been on account of her goodnatured support and tender care for her frail and elderly relatives that she hardly knew, and not because she was lovely. Most young people would have fled that scene at the first opportunity or, if they were stuck there due to circumstances at home (which I believe was Phoebe's situation) would not have been so kind and solicitous to what were clearly rather odd elderly people.

I agree with Frances that Clifford has found his little bit of heaven in his quiet garden. Included in Chapter 10 is the description of the garden and how Clifford spends his time there. The bees came to that one green nook 'to gladden poor Clifford'. As Clifford found peace of mind in the garden, it seemed to me to represent a garden of Eden.

However, he does not have the same peace of mind inside the house. There is a great contrast between this chapter and the next which describes Clifford inside the house,which is not a happy place to be. Clifford is looking out at the world seated at the window, but is not a participant.

I liked the author's description of the procession that from the distance seemed to be a united entity, "it melts all the petty personalities, of which it is made up into one broad mass".

Clifford has the yearning to renew the broken links of brotherhood with his kind. Clifford wanted to dive into the procession, but when Clifford and Hepzibah decided to go to Church were unable to cross the threshold.

Building on what has been said about the contrast between the Old and New worlds, there is something distinctly American about this novel. Hawthorne is carving out a space for 19th century American authors and giving American literature an identity separate from his English counterparts (Eliot, Dickens, Thakeray). Having said that, while I can appreciate the novel as a milestone in the history of American literature, I'm having difficulty enjoying it as either entertainment or art. Half way through I find it to be inferior to The Scarlet Letter. I appreciate Hawthorne's style, but so far it's wasted on a story that isn't particularly interesting.

Agreed Jeremy, it was a slog to get through for me as well

Jeremy - I agree. I am enjoying the book, but since Clifford's return, it has slowed down to a snail's pace. Where's the conflict? I'm waiting for something big to happen.

It's too bad not everyone is enjoying the book, but at least I'm not alone!

It looks like the conflict comes in chapter 15 - three quarters of the way into the book.

I'm starting to hit the good parts now too!

Good to know. I've been bogged down around chapter 13 for a few days.