Christian Speculative Fiction discussion

I am knew to this group and wondered what you thought about using profanity in your work as Christians. I have lived with profanity all my life growing up on a farm and working in the construction field for over 20 years. To all those around me profanity was just a punctuation mark. I don’t use it, well except when I’m working on plumbing or my truck.

As a reader I am turned off by it and even had to put a supposed “Christian book” down that had the F word on almost every page. On my first draft I had maybe a dozen swear words, not profanity like the F word or GD. A Beta Reader of mine, a Christian mother of several teenagers, read my manuscript and said she was uncomfortable with some of the language.

I did some research by reading my favorite authors to see how they got around profanity. I found they used the Tell rather than Show concept. They would show the emotion with action and internal thoughts and then describe their voice rather than use the actual words. I also discovered it takes creative writing and skill to convey the emotions of the scene without using the actual swear words.

Here’s an opening scene to a chapter from my unpublished book with one of my main characters, a former Marine:

“Rick erupted into a long string of curses. This old tractor is going to be the death of me, he thought, sucking on the knuckles of his right hand. He could see some blood and skin left on the carburetor housing nut he was trying to remove after the wrench he was using slipped. I should just junk grandpa’s old John Deere tractor and buy a new model like my neighbor Vernon’s. This ancient farm implement is barely removed from the horse drawn plow, thought Rick for the second time in the last 5 minutes. My problem is Grandma would kill me if I did. I could tell her I am going to restore it and ‘keep it as a remembrance of Grandpa’ and then go ahead and buy a new one with the load of money Grandpa left us, Rick said to himself as he examined the damage to his knuckles.”

When “Rick erupted into a long string of curses” Is read with the following paragraph the reader feels Rick’s pain and frustration without having certain profane words like the F bomb or GD placed in our conscious thought as a Marine may habitually use.

The best seller lists have dozens of authors on them who do not use profanity in their work.

What are your thoughts?

John wrote: "I am knew to this group and wondered what you thought about using profanity in your work as Christians. I have lived with profanity all my life growing up on a farm and working in the construction ..."

I personally do tell vs. show in most of my books. “Rick erupted into a long string of curses” is how I would write it.

A non-Christian book I read last year, The Lies of Locke Lamora, was so full of cursing that I could hardly understand parts of the story. I felt like it just took away from it.

As a YA author, I feel protective of the teens who read my books even though the teens I grew up around cursed like sailors. I don't think we have to cater to the lowest denominator, but we do need to be honest about our characters and who they are. I think telling as you have done accomplishes both.

My opinion on this is not the only opinion in this group. We actually discussed this a while ago here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
You can read up on some of the opinions if you like.

Still, I'm glad you have revived this topic because I am wrestling with whether to have some of the "lesser" curse words scattered in a grittier book I am working on. With a bunch of old sailors, just as with hardened military people, it's hard to write an honest dialogue without some of this. It's a tough choice.

Lara wrote: Still, I'm glad you have revived this topic because I am wrestling with whether to have some of the "lesser" curse words scattered in a grittier book I am working on. With a bunch of old sailors, just as with hardened military people, it's hard to write an honest dialogue without some of this. It's a tough choice.

My book is fairly gritty. I’d rate it PG-13 if it was a movie. Some of the best authors of Sci-Fi, Suspense, and Action Thrillers do without the use of Profanity or swear words. I removed all but one in my book. Here’s the scene where I couldn’t see around it:

Jeff walked over to the barn still trying to get the boogers out of his eyes and was immediately assaulted be an unfamiliar smell. What was this stupid ‘muck’ I was to help with. Doesn’t sound pleasant, he thought. He made his way down the wide space between the stalls in either side of the barn stepping in mud puddles. At least Rick could fix the roof, he thought sleepily as his Vans slipped around in the mud.

Jeff walked down the stalls looking for ‘Pat’. He saw a wheelbarrow next to the last one and could hear shoveling noises inside. The stench grew unbearable as Jeff made his way down the slippery barn floor. Peeking around the door Jeff saw a boy about his age dressed in tall rubber boots and coveralls covered in ‘muck’ wearing a cowboy hat and shoveling the mud into a wheelbarrow as some of it splashed on Jeff’s shirt and pants.

“Sorry, didn’t see you,” said ‘Pat’ in apology.

Jeff stood there awkwardly until he finally broke the silence.
“Hi, my name is Jeff,” he said. “Rick told me to help you.”

“My name’s Pat. Where are your work clothes?”

“It’s all I got,” said Jeff, sleepily.

Pat shook his head looking Jeff up and down, waiting as if to see if Jeff was serious or not.

“Suit yourself,” said Pat with a shrug of his shoulders. “At least you can wash the manure out of your clothes when we’re done. Probably will leave stains though.”

Manure!? thought Jeff. Then it hit him. He looked down more closely at the ‘mud’. It wasn’t brown but a sick shade of green! His Vans were completely covered in it and all the way up his legs. Did Rick expect him to shovel shit!? He now noticed that every stall was buried in it.

“This is bullshit!” exclaimed Jeff loudly, indignant at the thought of being required to shovel the offensive excrement.

Pat recovered quickly from the angry shout.
“No that’s technically cow shit. Rick and Ellie don’t own a bull. They purchase that service from Lloyd’s prized bull down the road,” Pat added with a crooked smile.

Pat’s comment stunned Jeff out of the angry place he was headed. “You mean there are cow gigolos?” Jeff asked in surprise.
“Yep! Fifty dollars a pop,” said Pat with a huge grin.

Jeff just stared at him open mouthed.
“Yea, Lloyd’s prize bull lost all interest in cows last spring. Nothin’ Old Lloyd could do worked so he asked the Vet in Midian to come down. The Vet gave Lloyd a large bottle of medicine and told him to give his bull three tablespoons a day. After that his bull serviced every cow he had plus broke through the fence and serviced all his neighbor’s cows too,” Pat explained.

“What was in the bottle the Vet gave him?” Jeff asked dumbfounded.
“I don’t know, but Old Lloyd said it tasted like peppermint,” said Pat.

Jeff stood in the stall, ankle deep in cow manure, clothes splashed with it, and laughed. He couldn’t help it. His frustration and anger was released, not through violence or a foul outburst but with uncontrollable laughter. Pat laughed too, more from Jeff’s reaction to his joke than seeing Jeff’s clothes covered in manure.

Pat’s comedic routine dowsed the anger Jeff had felt over the past week. Immediately Jeff knew he and Pat would be good friends. Before his mother’s death, he had few friends. No one real close. He spent so much of his time in the virtual reality of video games that he had drifted apart from his former friends he had in Elementary School. Meeting Pat brought back that desire of association, a bond with a real physical person rather than an avatar in the either.

Jeff looked down at his expensive clothes and knew they were ruined.
“Won’t do any good to change now, will it,” said Jeff still smiling shaking his head and looking down at his manure covered clothing.

Pat nodded in vigorous agreement, still grinning.
“Yep. Not worth changing. Might as well see who wins the war. Abercrombie’s or Nancy and Hillary’s colons,” Pat said looking at the fresh slimy green manure soaking into Jeff’s shirt, pants and sneakers.

Jeff said, “Abercrombie doesn’t have a prayer.”
Pat nodded and handed Jeff a large scoop shovel, “Let the battle begin.”

That’s it for swear words in my book. I have battle scenes, fight scenes and heated arguments all without swear words. I was determined to use my skills to write them out. I do have some violence I probably need to tone down though.

This discussion brings home to me what I learnt in our previous thread, which is how much this whole issue of profanity depends on the target readership. My own books were written in a British context, where not to have appropriate swear words in a stressful context would be regarded as completely unrealistic. For that reason one of my characters, in particular, comes out with a crisp expletive every now and again. Not to do so would run totally counter to the kind of character I've given him (to a British audience).

But I've learnt that in American Christian circles particularly, profanity is an absolute no-no, so the problem for me comes down to marketing: if I want to sell my books to North American Christians, I have to tone down the profanity as far as possible. Though like you, John, I don't think I can eliminate it altogether and still believe in my own characters!

For myself I have never met anyone who has put a book down or not bought a book because it had no profanity. I actually appreciate a well written piece that is exciting with loads of drama that the author has ‘written out’ swearing. One the other hand I know people, including myself who have given up on books because of profanity.

Steve wrote: "This discussion brings home to me what I learnt in our previous thread, which is how much this whole issue of profanity depends on the target readership. My own books were written in a British cont..."

I understand your point (and dilemma) Steve!

I recently read Machina Obscurum: A Collection of Shadows, which turned out not to be a collection of Cyberpunk stories. Misleading name, if you ask me.

Anyway, some of the stories were pretty good, some below average, and one that should never have seen the pages it was printed on.

Anyway, some of the better writing used no profanity. It shows that quality writing can be accomplished without profanity. And, these are very secular stories dealing with dark and sometimes demonic stuff.

I do not recommend the book, but recall it as a recent example.

Still, I don't think it was written for a UK audience. I believe most, if not all, of the authors are from the USA. But, they did not write for a Christian audience and still chose not to use profanity.

From our previous thread, you know that I'm not against authors using some mild profanity. However, I do make a mental note when they find a creative way to tell rather than show.

Still - interesting issue that we'll probably return to more in the future. I think your "marketing" concern is valid and you know I loved your first book!

I'm not selling my book as a "Christian" book by any means and it does contain light swearing, but I found that with each revision I toned it down even more. I'm sure it was "fine" for a general audience, but it just didn't sit well with me. It felt more obtrusive than anything. Kind of like watching a move with my kids when a sex scene comes on... it was uncomfortable.

As for the marketing, is it possible to have a UK and US version of the book?

John wrote: "For myself I have never met anyone who has put a book down or not bought a book because it had no profanity. I actually appreciate a well written piece that is exciting with loads of drama that the..."

I understand what you're saying, but again I think you're reflecting your own cultural background (as we all do, inevitably!).

The point is that your culture feels a lot more strongly about this than mine does; so, yes, people would stop reading a book because they found the profanity offensive. Whereas the reverse situation, in my culture, wouldn't provoke such a strong reaction simply because it's not such a big issue. But readers might well feel the characters were weak, or Sunday School-ish—not their kind of "blokes" at all!—without even realising why. Whereas if the characters had come out with the occasional "natural" expletives, readers would have identified with them more readily and enjoyed the book more as a result.

That said, I do agree that having an expletive every second word is quite unnecessary and way over the top. As a Christian writer I aim only to make my characters believable in my home culture by the sparse use of mild expletives where they seem culturally called-for—and I never use the really ripe four-letter words. I've also used telling rather than showing where showing would have involved a long string of profanity!

So I don't think we're all that far apart.

Stan wrote: "I understand your point (and dilemma) Steve!..."

Thanks for your comments, Stan. The book you mention sounds interesting. I couldn’t help finding it significant that you said, "I don't think it was written for a UK audience. I believe most, if not all, of the authors are from the USA. But, they did not write for a Christian audience and still chose not to use profanity."

That seems to tie in with what I said above, responding to John, that this aversion to the use of profanity in writing is a general US cultural phenomenon, not just a Christian thing. Maybe to that extent the culture still reflects its Christian roots, whereas the UK left Christianity behind long ago as outdated and irrelevant.

Anyway, I'm glad you liked my first book despite the occasional cuss-words!

Stoney wrote: "As for the marketing, is it possible to have a UK and US version of the book?"

Thanks for that suggestion, Stoney! It sounds great, but I don't know how I'd persuade Amazon to have one version on amazon.com and another on amazon.co.uk! Or maybe I'd have to have two separate books, with the one labeled (labelled) "US version" and the other labelled (labeled) "UK version". Would they accept two books with the same name, description, etc.???

Raises some interesting questions!

A lot of music albums have US/UK/other country versions with slightly different song lists. I don't see why Amazon wouldn't let you, at the very least have two different versions, especially if the title contained the UK/US version.

Oh, ouch. No, I wasn't thinking of actually having "US/UK Version" in the title itself. Though you're right, that might be the only way to get different versions. But it could end up with both versions being published in both Amazon stores… Rather messy. Have to think about that one!

Yeah, you're right, don't want duplicates in each store. I'd see if you can reach out to someone about that.

Yes, I could try that. Though recent experiences of contacting KDP haven't been encouraging: they've tended to trot out the nearest stock answer without paying proper attention to what I'm asking… Still, no harm trying.

Steve wrote: "Yes, I could try that. Though recent experiences of contacting KDP haven't been encouraging: they've tended to trot out the nearest stock answer without paying proper attention to what I'm asking… ..."

Steve, I came across this when I considered having two versions of my book with different spellings (long story).
You can do it, but you have to publish the UK version in the UK only and click a button so it's not available in the US and then do the same vice versa for the US version. I'm pretty sure this limits your royalties to the 30% bracket as well, which is why I gave up and just put the UK version out everywhere.

Haha! There had to be a catch. Well, thanks for letting me know. I'll probably do the same, and just limit the profanity to the minimum I feel is realistic for my particular characters.

Hello everyone!
I think this is an interesting topic and something that Christian writers have to weigh. I recently read a Christian novel when all of a sudden, it was as if I'd got smacked in the teeth when the lead character used the "F" word. This was over a hundred pages into the book, so it was wholly unexpected. It was abrupt and definitely caused me to take a step back for a moment. The novel was for adults but could easily have been read by young adults or teens.

Some background about myself. I was born in UK, but moved with my parents to USA from the age of eight. I was influenced greatly by Christian churches there--Baptist, Pentecostal/Charismatic. In the last ten years, I returned to the UK.

Some observations: In some ways, I find the British way of life among Christians more authentic. For example, having a pint of beer in the UK is considered normal. Meeting at a pub for a meal isn't discouraged. I've even heard it mentioned from the pulpit. Drinking wine is celebrated here. Whereas in USA, its just much more conservative--though the further west you go, the more open Christians tend to be to such things (though probably not as "free" as the British).

So, getting back to the novel: it did shock me. And I don't consider myself overly conservative. I think if an author is going to use such language, it must be strategically placed and advance the character's journey in a major way. Or don't use it.

Perhaps because of my roots, I can't see myself using profanity in my writing. That's just my personal stance. If a character of mine is going to use such language, I'd rather have the character perform an action that is equal to profanity and conveys the same measure of anger/frustration/pain. The use of profanity may be implied without me having to write it out?

Some Christian films, I notice, are so starchy-clean that they don't ring authentic to audiences. Having a character use profanity (though not the lowest level of profanity) can help a film to reach a wider audience. It could be argued that authors can also do the same.

But there is a risk that Christians in North America will stop watching or reading if we cross that line. We may lose a significant percentage of Christian readers in America--and they probably account for 75% of worldwide Christian readership (if not more).

Because of that profanity in the novel I read above, I couldn't see myself recommending it to younger readers. And I did have contact with the author and gave him my opinion that he wasn't doing himself any favours to have the profanity (and it appeared two other times in that book). I remained neutral about it though, and respect the author's overall decision. But it was jarring and didn't amuse me; it shocked me for a few moments.

Perhaps creatively, the use of such language needs to be incorporated in the early part of a work so the reader knows from the beginning what the boundaries are that will be touched on or crossed.

Overall, I believe there are considerations of spiritual, business, and creative authenticity.

For me as an author, the first is spiritual. It's just the way I'm wired.

But also important is the business aspect. I want my "brand" to be one that readers will revisit and trust. Recently, I received an email from a reader asking me about any new works. She and her husband had been reading "The Jesus Boy" to her children at bedtime. Wow. To know someone was reading a novel of mine to their kids? Imagine if, on page 175 of the novel, I dropped the f-bomb? I might lose them forever.

And finally, creatively, I do strive to be authentic. Again, in "The Jesus Boy," as Steve knows since he's given me some incredible feedback, the characters brush up against sexual temptation. I really had to walk a fine line. In my afterward, I apologised to any reader that felt I might have crossed a line with the characters' interactions and my use of description. But I, too, strive to be authentic.

If I felt the use of profanity was necessary, I might do it under a pen name so not to ruin the brand I'm creating over time.

A lot to consider.

-Sean

I completely agree with Lara on this one when she said:
"I personally do tell vs. show in most of my books. 'Rick erupted into a long string of curses' is how I would write it."

Profanity, vulgarity, etc. has no place in "Christian" literature. If you have to include it, then please change the name of your genre from "Christian" to something else.

I guess that’s why C.S. Lewis’ space trilogy isn’t considered Cristian. Or is it? I don’t know.

But what is profanity? Isn’t that just cultural? What are considered swear words in America are not swear words in other countries and vice versa. I’m pretty sure words such as “bloody,” “arse,” and “shite” (or even “shat”) are considered vulgar, but in America they are “acceptable” replacements for our “vulgar” terms in everyday conversations.

For that matter, terms such as “sucks” and “crap” used to be considered vulgar, but are almost completely acceptable now, and other words such as “frick,” “dang,” and “shoot” were once not acceptable in Christian lingo because they were blatant replacements for the really vulgar terms.

So how do Christians navigate the cultural nature of swear words, especially in a world with international and multi-cultural audiences?

I think you have a point, Stoney. I am also unfamiliar with any scriptures that actually talk about this issue. The prohibition on taking the Lord's name in vain can apply sometimes. Swearing in the Bible is talking about actual oaths. Our modern cursing is a very culturally specific issue. My avoidence of it is more about having clean speech and avoiding the vulgar than it is a Christian vs non-Christian issue.

I can think of Ephesians 4:29: Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. But I think that speaks more about intent than it does the actual words. According to Jesus, even calling someone a "fool" can be considered unwholesome. The intent here is what is unwholesome, not the words themselves. (Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites, which means accurate but insulting words wouldn't necessarily be unwholesome either.

So, this brings us back to culture and our audiences. Personally, I reduced the profanity in my book only because I didn't feel it was necessary. It wasn't even that bad, but in the end, the book was not better with it than without.

Stoney wrote: "Personally, I reduced the profanity in my book only because I didn't feel it was necessary. It wasn't even that bad, but in the end, the book was not better with it than without."

I think this applies to speech too. I remember a time when all the teenagers in high school used curse words in every sentence. I still meet adults who speak this way. Whether or not the words were the really bad ones or just the not so bad ones, I realized that it actually weakens the impact of what was being said rather than enhancing as these people hoped it would.

I think the verses you give are a good guideline for this discussion even if it isn't specific to curse words. No matter the cultural context, do the words actually enhance, help, or build up what is being said? Do the words build up the reader's involvement in the message of the book? I think the intent is definitely the Christian stance.