Reading the 20th Century discussion

Anthony Trollope may not be 20th century but we love him and we want to discuss him and his work.


Let's talk Trollope

Glad you started this. I've read about 10 of his books so far and enjoyed all of them. Of the Standalones, Orley Farm was excellent as was The Way We Live Now. Last year, I read Castle Richmond with another group and that too turned out really interesting even though not to the degree as some others.

I am off on holiday soon, and taking He Knew He Was Right to read by the pool ...

I have been becoming acquainted with Trollope through Audible, with Timothy West reading the Pallisers and the Barchester novels. The Way We Live Now is excellent, but my favourite is Phineas Finn. His female characters are as bounded by the conventions of their time, but manage to at least (in most cases) to have thoughts and ambitions that exceed their boundaries.

Trollope wrote 47 novels and published 5 collections of short stories. He also did some travel writing and wrote some biographies.

Here is a complete list of his works, the categories thanks to The Trollope Society.

I have very much enjoyed my time with Trollope, having read 37 of his novels, his autobiography, and 1 short story collection. I have also read C.P. Snow's biography (not because I thought it the best, but because my local university library had a copy), and another book which I'd recommend to the Trollope enthusiast Trollope and Women. In fact, I'd almost recommend that even if you didn't intend to read Trollope because the author does such a good job of presenting the plight of women in the mid-19th Century.

This is a repost of my post from Elizabeth (Alaska)'s Trollope group three years ago on WHY DO YOU READ TROLLOPE:

I read Trollope because he gives an insightful portrait of 19th Century British life, does so in an entertaining, easy to read style, and reading him makes me look smarter than I am.

I have found that people would see me reading a 900 page Trollope and act impressed, thinking I was reading something difficult and boring, like a Tolstoy or even Dickens, when I felt I was reading escapist, easy to read books that entertain me, and just happen to be long and old. I don't tell them that.

NEW: I apologize to Tolstoy and Dickens fans. I really don't find them that boring, I just think they, unlike Trollope, are more difficult reads.

Trollope worked for the postal service for nearly 20 years. He is credited with inventing the red letter box, so that people would have a place to leave letters for the postman and wouldn't have to worry they'd miss him and their letter wouldn't go out.

Trollope grew up very poor. The family lived 3 miles from school and in walking each way each day he would make up stories to occupy his mind. So, it was really as a boy that Trollope began to hone his story-telling/writing skills.

His first novels were not hits. (And I have read the first, The Macdermots of Ballycloran - it's a good thing he got better!) Early in his post office career, Trollope was in Ireland and so his first novels are set there. The Irish were not a popular theme in England, so this may be another reason those were not especially popular. He then wrote an historical novel, La Vendee about those who resisted the French Revolution. This is told from an English point of view, naturally. There are a couple of French novels about the same people, and I found those better.

But then Trollope begins to hit his stride when he next published The Warden, the first in his 6-volume Barsetshire Chronicles. It depends on which day you ask me whether I'd say his Barsetshire or his Palliser novels are my favorites. Today I'm on the Palliser side of the fence. Each of the novels in the both of the series can be read as stand alone novels, but if you have any thought you might like to read them all, I'd suggest reading them in order.

In even his dramatic novels, Trollope has some amusing lines/scenes. His humor appeals to me, but I won't make any promises it will appeal to you. I know that I don't find most "humorous" novels humorous, so you might not appreciate Trollope's humor. He plays with names, for example. In several (and unrelated) novels, there is the legal firm of Slow & Bideawhile. I first encountered them in my first Trollope read, The Way We Live Now, and, as I recall, they also appear in The Warden. In the novel Miss Mackenzie, we learn there is indeed a Mr. Slow and a Mr. Bideawhile. Needless to say, neither gentleman is in any hurry to complete his work.

Besides being on the last book in a re-read of the 12 Barsetshire and Palliser novels, I have read 6 other Trollopes:

The Way We Live Now
He Knew He Was Right
The Fixed Period
Dr. Wortle's School
Orley Farm
Rachel Ray

When I finish the Palliser re-read I am open to what my next Trollope will be.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "In several (and unrelated) novels, there is the legal firm of Slow & Bideawhile."

Would you sell your house through the (real-life) estate agents Doolittle and Dalley? https://www.doolittle-dalley.co.uk/

Rosina wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "In several (and unrelated) novels, there is the legal firm of Slow & Bideawhile."

Would you sell your house through the (real-life) estate agents Doolittle and Dalley? h..."

Ha! Too funny. You've got to wonder if they see the humor in that!

As an aside, in researching my family history, I found one of my 3-great grandmothers was born Eliza Doolittle. The family had long been here in the states, but I couldn't help laughing about the more famous Eliza of Shaw's.

You've sold him to me. I've yet to read any Anthony Trollope. My Dad was a massive fan, had all his books.

Nigeyb wrote: "You've sold him to me. I've yet to read any Anthony Trollope. My Dad was a massive fan, had all his books."

Yay! A convert! (Well, at least you'll dip your toe in the Trollope waters.)

I haven't read any Trollope , but do have a few here so I will try to fit one in sometime soon. I know I have The Warden, so is that a good place to start?

The Warden was my 2nd Trollope, and I was already enamored of him.

Here is my review. I am amused by my comment regarding Dickens toward the end. I think I have changed my mind since then. But it is well to note that comment anyway.

I have read, Can you Forgive her? many years ago. I liked it, as I recall, but then halted for some reason. If there is a group read at some time, I will give him another try.

I love Trollope too and have read all the novels and short stories, plus his autobiography, book on Thackeray and a couple of travel books - but all some years ago now. I liked Victoria Glendinning’s biography.

Judy wrote: "I liked Victoria Glendinning’s biography.
"

Thanks for this. I have it on my list, and it's good know which are recommended.

And well done on reading all of Trollope's fiction! Bravo!

Brian wrote: "This is a repost from Elizabeth (Alaska)'s Trollope group three years ago on WHY DO YOU READ TROLLOPE:

I read Trollope because he gives an insightful portrait of 19th Century British life, does s..."

Agree with you about the insights into contemporary life. Reading nineteenth-century novels can be as interesting for what they reveal about manners and mores of the era as for the plot - in fact more so. The most intriguing aspect can sometimes be what is left out, of course - for example, the graphic descriptions of personal life which later became essential to any modern work.

I recently wrapped up the Palliser novels and thought The Duke's Children while entertaining went out with a whimper. But I discovered that there's a restored version which adds back in almost one-third more text and the resulting book is both funnier and darker. I couldn't find an ebook version, so I stuck with the standard, but some day I'll have to go back to it.

Guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...

I’m rereading The Duke’s Children right now with another group. I think I’ll look into the restored version; it sounds very interesting.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Judy wrote: "I liked Victoria Glendinning’s biography." Thanks for this. I have it on my list, and it's good know which are recommended."

Thanks Elizabeth - I have read one or two other biographies as well, but I'm not sure which ones they were now!

I still need to read the restored version of The Duke's Children - also, must admit, although I have read all the novels, I don't remember them all very well, so I may do some rereading in the future.

Nancy wrote: "I recently wrapped up the Palliser novels and thought The Duke's Children while entertaining went out with a whimper. But I discovered that there's a restored version which adds back ..."

I'm about to start reading Trollope for the first time, so I'll look out for the restored version when I get to The Duke's Children - thanks!

It's interesting that you all want to read a 'restored' edition. I can't think how many times I've read in reviews "this could have used a good editor." So Trollope had one apparently.

I believe he cut it himself because the publisher refused to publish such a long book, because of sales - he was very upset about having to do it though.

This is my comment on the "Restored" edition made in another group:
I just received my copy of the Everyman extended version of The Duke's Children and will start in a week or so. While the extra 200 pages makes it more difficult to catch up, I am pleased to see that the Chapters are the same in number, 80, with the same titles, so there is no confusion with my following the Group's discussion thread format.
I read that Trollope did not cut whole chapters, but just portions of them, mostly the political stuff to focus the story on the family. So many of you may feel relieved that you avoided 200 pages of political details. For me, I feel that since I read the cut version 20 years ago, fate has mandated that I read the extended version now.
However, I also read that the cuts were mandated by the editor, Charles Dickens, Jr, due to the failure of The Prime Minister and Chuck Jr.'s feeling that the public was weary of too much Trollope. For me, I weary of too much Dickens.
Basically, I feel the extended version is the version most consistent with the length, structure and how Trollope wrote the previous 5. The cuts contained in the original published version are not due to Trollope needing an editor, but due to the poor reaction to The Prime Minister. Trollope, not an editor made the cuts.

The Prime Minister is the only one of the Palliser series that I gave 4-stars rather than 5. I suspect the public wanted the usual feel-good that reading Trollope could provide, and one of the plot lines in that novel was very dark.

I will say, without spoilers I think, that I found it somewhat amusing that throughout the series, Plantagenet Palliser was working on currency decimalization. 100 years later (give or take), it was finally achieved.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "The Prime Minister is the only one of the Palliser series that I gave 4-stars rather than 5. I suspect the public wanted the usual feel-good that reading Trollope could provide, and one of the plot..."

It is the only one I don't re-read, for that reason. Too many unpleasant undertones, as well.

Brian wrote: "Basically, I feel the extended version is the version most consistent with the length, structure and how Trollope wrote the previous 5. The cuts contained in the original published version are not due to Trollope needing an editor, but due to the poor reaction to The Prime Minister."

I missed the political underpinnings in "The Duke's Children." Without them, the story came across as just so much romantic fluff. I loved "The Prime Minister."

Nancy wrote: "I missed the political underpinnings in "The Duke's Children.""

I liked the Duke being a father, showing that he wasn't just the cold, cold man in the earlier installments of the series.

Judy wrote: "I love Trollope too and have read all the novels and short stories, plus his autobiography, book on Thackeray and a couple of travel books - but all some years ago now. ."

I never thought I'd meet anyone, even on-line, who had read all of Trollope, especially someone younger than me. That is an awesome accomplishment, one I wouldn't even think of attempting.

Very kind of you, Brian, but there is still a lot of his non-fiction I haven't read - plus I must admit I don't remember some of the novels and a lot of the short stories, even though I know I've read them!

Judy is awesome. It is well known.

Thank you Nigeyb, too kind!;)

Which lesser-known Victorians do Trollope fans enjoy? I like Margaret Oliphant, also known as Mrs. Oliphant - her Carlingford Chronicles are great and quite similar to Trollope. She wrote a wide range of fiction, more than 100 books, so it would be extremely difficult to read all of those, though quite a few of them are now on Kindle!

Judy wrote: "Carlingford Chronicles"


The name alone attracts me - splendid

Judy wrote: "Thank you Nigeyb, too kind!;)

Which lesser-known Victorians do Trollope fans enjoy? I like Margaret Oliphant, also known as Mrs. Oliphant - her Carlingford Chronicles are great ..."

I enjoyed the Carlingford Chronicles- also A Country Gentleman and His Family, Volume 1 of 3 which was very good.

My review of Phoebe Junior: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Miss Marjoribanks: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

A Country Gentleman and his Family: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

There are a couple of others waiting on my TBR.

Thanks Lady C - I haven't read A Country Gentleman and His Family yet, so will hopefully get to that one soon. Enjoyed your review. I'll read your other reviews of the books from the Carlingford series now. :)

Others by Oliphant that I've read and enjoyed are The Curate in Charge (this one is very similar to the Carlingford stories), Hester, Kirsteen: The Story of a Scotch Family Seventy Years Ago, Katie Stewart: A True Story, The Marriage of Elinor.

She also wrote some great supernatural stories, such as A Beleaguered City and some short stories.

Judy wrote: "Thanks Lady C - I haven't read A Country Gentleman and His Family yet, so will hopefully get to that one soon. Enjoyed your review. I'll read your other reviews of the books from the Carlingford se..."

I've read a Curate In Charge as well- One I have waiting is The Ladies Lindores. Will look into the rest.

I also want to read The Ladies Lindores. I meant to add, I was a bit disappointed by The Last of the Mortimers - A Story in Two Voices, which was very slow and repetitive.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I will say, without spoilers I think, that I found it somewhat amusing that throughout the series, Plantagenet Palliser was working on currency decimalization. 100 years later (give or take), it was finally achieved. .."

Yes, this was amazing - gave a feeling of just how long it took for this to finally be introduced!

Judy wrote: "I also want to read The Ladies Lindores. I meant to add, I was a bit disappointed by The Last of the Mortimers - A Story in Two Voices, which was very slow and repetitive."

Oh, I'm sorry that was disappointing--luckily most of hers seem to be really enjoyable :)

I have liked Mary Elizabeth Braddon. She is a writer of "sensational" novels and perhaps would be thought more in conjunction with Wilkie Collins, than Trollope. In the same vein (I think) is Mrs. Henry Wood, but I haven't gotten to her yet.

I've read Wood's East Lynne - hugely sentimental in that distinctive Victorian way but I enjoyed it a lot.

Braddon's Lady Audley's Secret is huge fun - and actually quite subversive in its treatment of women (in a good way).

Roman Clodia wrote: "I've read Wood's East Lynne - hugely sentimental in that distinctive Victorian way but I enjoyed it a lot.

Braddon's Lady Audley's Secret is huge fun - and actually ..."

I liked Lady Audley's secret a lot. Haven't gotten to Mrs Wood yet though.

I've been watching the increasingly soapy TV series Victoria. Laurence Fox is now starring as a handsome and seductive Lord Palmerston (who I gather was really much older at this period than the actor!) so I thought it would be a good opportunity to read Trollope's biography of him.

I've just started it, and the opening is very interesting, as Trollope takes issue with Prince Albert's reported disapproval of Palmerston.

"But with the verdict of the Prince, declared in regard to Lord Palmerston as Foreign Minister, I am compelled to differ. It is nothing that I and another do not agree with it, but I think that I shall be able to show that England has disagreed with his Royal Highness, and that England has been right."

Judy wrote: "I've been watching the increasingly soapy TV series Victoria. Laurence Fox is now starring as a handsome and seductive Lord Palmerston (who I gather was really much older at this period than the ac..."

Yes, it is getting soapy, though I still enjoy it, especially Mr. Fox's Lord Palmerston who I feel is not that handsome but definitely seductive, but more in the slithery John Malkovich in Dangerous Liaisons manner.

As an American, I never heard of Lord Palmerston before and as a Trollope fan may have to check that book out.

You might find it interesting, Brian, although it will doubtless be more obscure for you than it is for me - and I'm having to refer to Lord P's Wikipedia page to explain some of the references.

But so far I'm really enjoying Trollope's prose. As a fan of the Palliser novels, it is also interesting to see him writing about the real politics of the period.

On the TV series, I'm wondering if Victoria and Albert are ever going to look a little older and less beautiful - they are the parents of 6 by now!

From 1066 and All That: A Memorable History of England - which presumably includes all you need to know about Palmerston ...

"MEANWHILE, at home, fresh attempts to galvanize the Queen resulted in the promotion of Lord Palmerston (`Pal') to the Premiership, a rather matey minister who always wore green gloves and sucked a straw and altered the Despatches after the Queen had signed them, so that they became surprises for her. It was not, however, until he conceived and carried through his heartless Conspiracy to Murder Bill that the Good (but now Horrified) Queen dismissed him. After which `Pal' spent his time taking special trains in all directions and galloping to Harrow on a cream-coloured pony, thus endearing himself to the People and becoming an object of terror and admiration to all foreign governments."

Thank you Rosina - I hadn't realised 1066 and All That went up to such recent times! I'll be interested to see how much, if any, of that features both in Trollope's book and in Victoria.

It goes up to the Treaty of Versailles, when America becomes Top Nation and History comes to a .

I'm about halfway through Trollope's Palmerston book now and enjoying it, mainly for Trollope's voice and also for the witty extracts from Palmerston's letters, although it is certainly difficult to follow, as Trollope assumes the detailed knowledge of 19th-century politics which his original readers would have had. The Victoria series is helping, at least.

I've been tempted to get The Victorians by A.N. Wilson out of the library, and hope this will fill in some of my knowledge - but I'll at least get under way with our next mod read, Bluestockings: The Remarkable Story of the First Women to Fight for an Education before plunging into this!

I've now read nearly 75% of Trollope's Palmerston book, and am just coming up to the Crimean War - I was startled to see Trollope refer to this conflict as "the great war." I hadn't realised this term was used for other conflicts before WW1.

The book is rather hard for me to follow , as previously mentioned, and I'm getting the feeling it is one for Trollope completists only.
I've also been taken aback by some aspects such as the account of the Don Pacifico Affair, where Palmerston launched a naval blockade against Greece after a British citizen living there, Don Pacifico, had his house set fire to because he was Jewish. Trollope appears to think that Palmerston shouldn't really have bothered about this, and at one point is almost making excuses for Palmerston's lack of anti-Semitism!

This whole Don Pacifico episode actually featured in this week's episode of Victoria, so I was able to follow it a bit better from having read the Trollope and other background information.