Classics and the Western Canon discussion

My apologies, but I don't think I posted anything about Chapter XIX last week so I will post it here

Chapter XIX

“In stiller Ruhe, in wechselloser Einfalt führ ich ununterbrochen das Bewusstseyn der ganzen Menschheit in mir.”

“In still rest, in changeless simplicity, I bear, uninterrupted, the consciousness of the whole of Humanity within me.” —SCHLEIERMACHER, Monologen

Anodos tells us:

It is noticeable that most of the buildings I saw in Fairy Land were cottages.

What could be the significance of this noticeable observation?

Is there any significance to the young eyes on the old woman? This woman seems the most "mother-like" character we have seen so far.

Sir Aglovaile kills his ghostly wife by forgetting the warning and holding her and we have yet one more, "do not touch the woman" message.

Then Anodos in turn goes through and returns from the four doors in the woman's cottage. Through the first door he relives the guilt and death by drowning of his brother. Through the second door it is revealed the marble lady loves Sir Percival and not Anodos and here it is revealed that it was indeed Percival that saved Anodos from the Ash tree. Through the third door he seems to sense his dead ancestors and remarks

The veil between though very dark, is very thin.

The fourth door remains a mystery. Again despite warnings not to go in, he does, but he wakes up back in the cottage and we aren't sure what happens there, we only know the woman shuddered when she looked at the door.

Why does the sea rise to keep the woman's cottage underwater for a year?

Chapter XX
Anodos joins a cause and decides to aid two brothers attempting to rid their kingdom of the giants who have taken it over.

Chapter XXI
Anodos and the brothers defeat the giants, but the brothers are killed.

As I stood exhausted amidst the dead, after the first worthy deed of my life, I suddenly looked behind me, and there lay the Shadow, black in the sunshine.

Why does Anodos call this his first worthy deed, and why has his shadow returned and why is it so dark?

Chapter XXII
Anodos, now a knight, goes on a quest that takes him through the wilderness. We know what happens to knights who go on quests thorugh the wilderness, right? Their shadow locks them up in a tower with their shadow. Wait. What?

And who comes singing by to save him? Globe-girl. I think there is a very significant meaning to his revelation:

Hardly knowing what I did, I opened the door. Why had I not done so before? I do not know.

Has his wilderness quest taught him humility? He feels a sense of shame in front of the girl, now a woman, and decides he will make a better squire than a knight.

Just a guess, Cphe, but I think there is some sort of reflection aspect. I personally felt the first woman we met in a cottage was very motherly. I don't know.

This group has often pushed me outside of my comfort zone. (Thanks!) I got a bit lost in the meanderings with this one, though.

Cphe wrote: "True, I just thought it would have been a nice touch if they were somehow related to him. Sort of watching over his journey."

I do not think that we have any hint about their relations. There is very vaguely mentioning about his grandmother, but we do not know if this is true.

I think all these women are about his longing for his mother. She died young - so the young eyes on the old woman.

David wrote: "Anodos tells us:
It is noticeable that most of the buildings I saw in Fairy Land were cottages.
What could be the significance of this noticeable observation?"

The significance of this noticeable observation puzzles me, but I have another observation it is going to be the last cottage he mentions.

The next three chapters goes like this: first, the fulfilment of his dreams or ambitions, then the tremendous moral fiasco. In the end, the lesson is learned. But the road of humility is still to be taken. And I supposed McDonald want Anodos to go all the way.

I think we’d agree that the White Lady, who first appears as the Marble Lady in Chapter V and then as the veiled Statue in Chapter XIV, is an important character/symbol in Phantastes. Anodos, at least through Chapter XIX, is driven by his search for her, has a kind of love for her, and succeeds in bringing her into his experience if only for moments.

It now seems to me that the White Lady represents the IDEAL, be it beauty, goodness, truth, love — one, some, or all. Many of the events in the narrative are about Anodos’ search for the IDEAL, his attempts to possess it, and his ultimate failure to do so. If one sets aside the random events and characters, sidebars, and florid language, this is what’s left.

Beginning in Chapter XX, we jarringly find ourselves in a folktale, at least a tale that follows a traditional folktale formula — 3 brothers, 3 giants, a great battle, good defeats evil, one survives, a life-lesson taught. In case we missed the point MacDonald uses the end of Chapter XXII to be explicit:

”Indeed, my ideal soon became my life; whereas, formerly, my life had consisted in a vain attempt to behold, if not my ideal in myself, at least myself in my ideal.”

To me, this episode is a deus ex machina. Anodos’ character, thin as it is, doesn’t evolve or show any sign of change before this. Now, all of a sudden he’s a new man. His Shadow has gone. Time for the denouement.

Gary wrote: "I think we’d agree that the White Lady, who first appears as the Marble Lady in Chapter V and then as the veiled Statue in Chapter XIV, is an important character/symbol in Phantastes. Anodos, at le..."

I completely agree. But then I wonder who the Knight is or what he represents, that she is with and professes to truly love over Anodos per his experience in that second door? Who does IDEAL love?

I will say this, that after 19 chapters of seemingly purposeless wandering, it seems a bit satisfactory to know that Anados has finally found his purpose (or at least a purpose), even if it seems to different from all that has occurred up until this point.

The four doors in chapter XIX reminded me of the three ghosts in "A Christmas Carol". Scenes from Anodos’s past, present and future. I really wonder what the fourth door hid. Of course he ignores the rules, goes into door four and the young eyed woman receives what should be his punishment—a year of floods. He's impulsive and still ignores all advice. Curious if there is a change in the last few chapters.

David wrote: "Gary wrote: "I think we’d agree that the White Lady, who first appears as the Marble Lady in Chapter V and then as the veiled Statue in Chapter XIV, is an important character/symbol in Phantastes. ..."

Knight represents Anodos ideal, I supposed. He wants to be a knight and pursue it until finally achieved and failed. White lady may represent the romantic part of this ideal - a perfect object of love for the knight since Anodos can't be a perfect knight he can't be with the White Lady.

Kyle wrote: "I will say this, that after 19 chapters of seemingly purposeless wandering, it seems a bit satisfactory to know that Anados has finally found his purpose (or at least a purpose), even if it seems to different from all that has occurred up until this point. "

And failed to discover what should his real purpose?

Alexey wrote: "And failed to discover what should his real purpose?"

It seemd to me like changing your major in college when you find your first worthy choice maybe doesn't quite suite you as well as some other worthy choice.

Well said, I didn't think in this terms, but certainly will from this moment.

I wonder if he is settling or giving up to be a squire, or just taking a longer route to being a knight?

Or is it a case of, "It is good to be a squire, because once a knight is enough"? :)

David wrote: "Or is it a case of, "It is good to be a squire, because once a knight is enough"? :)"

Groan--followed by a long, drawn out yawn :)

David wrote: " I wonder who the Knight is or what he represents, that she is with and professes to truly love over Anodos per his experience in that second door? Who does IDEAL love?"

I believe the central characters in Phantastes are archetypes. The Knight is the HERO who strives to right wrongs and do good against all odds and who carries on despite setbacks. The "love" between the HERO the IDEAL is one of affirmation.

Alexey wrote: "Knight represents Anodos ideal"

While the Knight is Anodos' ideal as a role model, the Knight is not the same as the IDEAL symbolized by the White Lady. The IDEAL inspires, the HERO acts.

What brings Anodos to his reflections at the end of XXII? What elements have come together?

(1) Remorse over his final, disastrous attempt to grasp the White Lady, leading to his willingness to admit that he may not deserve her.

(2) Hope that all may be well from the visions of the ocean and the song of the old woman, healing his despair.

(3) Encounter with the four doors, which show him visions suggestive of past, present, future, and of course the fourth door (death?) which leaves him without memories.

(4) His first physically heroic act against the giants followed by pride and moral failure, as his shadow takes on more tangible form and imprisons him.

(5) His liberation by the woman whom he wronged once, and whom he sees made better by her experience of suffering and forgiveness. Although this woman is described as beautiful, Anodos records no selfish desire to possess her, only penitence and the recognition of a "great gulf" between her saintliness and his own baseness.

At this point, Anodos has achieved both physical courage and, through gracious infusion, the basis for moral courage. His deliverance from the tower is a rebirth, of the kind he describes at the end of XXII, with the self perpetually dying and resurrecting until at last an identity deeper than self finally emerges from "the unknown abysses of the soul." The catalyst is humility, which places one ever below one's ideal rather than allowing one to identify with it.

This is a gem:

Ch XXII: "I learned that it is better, a thousand-fold, for a proud man to fall and be humbled, than to hold up his head in his pride and fancied innocence."

I feel like before this stage of the book I wondered: 'What does it all mean?' Now it is more like 'What's the next?'

Does anyone haму the same filling?

My feeling is that this is a book to be read from beginning to end and experienced, not one to be analyzed scene by scene.

Roger wrote: "My feeling is that this is a book to be read from beginning to end and experienced, not one to be analyzed scene by scene."

I agree. I've been on vacation, so I kind of fell out of the conversation, but I think I would have benefitted more from reading the book as a whole rather than piecemeal. I can see reading it again someday--there were aspects that I did enjoy, and I've found many of the comments here very interesting.

@Roger and Bryan, I am looking forward to your comments on the last chapters and book as a whole. To carry your take on it further, would you say this may not have been a good story to serialize in a periodical? If so, why not? Anodos' adventures, while possibly building on one another, appear to be episodic in nature. His arrival, in Faerie Land, his encounter with the Ash tree, His Shadow finding him at the Ogress' cottage, etc.

Actually, reading it serialized, one episode at a time, might not be so bad. It's the trying to analyze each one before moving on that grates--like trying to find out what makes a puppy so charming by dissecting it.

Roger wrote: "Actually, reading it serialized, one episode at a time, might not be so bad. It's the trying to analyze each one before moving on that grates

What do you do with the story between episodes? Would you just mention around the water cooler that the latest installment was nice experience, or would you dissect each installment a bit more and speculate about what is going on, what lessons are being learned?

Hmm...reminds me of the globe incident. . .and how it turned out.

David wrote: "To carry your take on it further, would you say this may not have been a good story to serialize in a periodical? If so, why not?..."

I think for me that there is a certain spell or charm a book like this engenders and that it is more effective when I concentrate on it specifically. Almost all the other books I've read with Goodread's groups I've found have been augmented by reading in sections and discussion afterward. This is the only one where I felt that total affect was diminished. For me, the story didn't seem to cohere into a whole.

I did finish a while ago, knowing I was leaving on vacation for a while, and didn't want to put even more distance between readings.

Roger wrote: "My feeling is that this is a book to be read from beginning to end and experienced, not one to be analyzed scene by scene."

I agree. But I found it quite a challenge to enjoy the experience. I got progressively more frustrated by trying to make sense of it. I kept wondering where the heck it was going. I finally gave up trying to analyze the scenes and attempted to "surrender" to the experience. I didn't find that to be any more rewarding. It just seemed to consist of a series of aimless meanderings that, as Bryan said above, didn't cohere into a whole.

I don't mean to disparage the book because I know others have enjoyed it. I suspect it's probably my fault. The novel did have some eloquent passages that are worth savoring. But I guess I'm just not into experiencing someone else's aimless meanderings into fairy land.

Tamara wrote: "Roger wrote: "My feeling is that this is a book to be read from beginning to end and experienced, not one to be analyzed scene by scene."

I agree. But I found it quite a challenge to enjoy the exp..."

If the author structures its work generally as a repetition of the same trope in different circumstances and variation, I supposed, it is reasonable to question what new each repetition gives us.

Like Bryan, from one point I have read this book without a schedule, but I have many questions for individual chapters of the book. And some comments in the feed changed my perception of the book as a whole.

So I do not think discussing this book part by part and enjoying it as a complete work are incompatible.

Tamara wrote: I agree. But I found it quite a challenge to enjoy the exp..."

Me too. Some sections moved and others I would completely get bogged down with lots of question marks floating over my head!

As an aside, the flooding of the cottage for a year made me think of Brigadoon! Though that town disappeared for a hundred years!

The episode with the old woman in the cottage seems like a turning point in the story, but so does the episode in the tower after the affray with the Giants. And there seems something fitting in the young woman singing him free of the tower when singing seemed to be his own gift (or one of them). I'm being left with the feeling that if I read it again, there would be sense and meaning I'm missing this time through. But maybe that's just me searching for meaning.