Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy" discussion

There are two group reads for Sept-Oct 2014, this one is focused on historical, heroic fiction...ie. Swords without Sorcery. Thanks to group member Joseph for suggesting Harold Lamb's work will surely be a focus.

Sweet! I have a small hill of old and newer historical novels just waiting to be tackled; but which one? Lamb? Howard? Jakes? What a conundrum!!!

Some good stuff in that vein.

I've been wanting to pick up Howard Andrew Jones's editions of Lamb for a while. He wrote some very cool blog posts at Black Gate about the process of discovering those old stories and seeing them through to publication. Every nearly-lost great author in the afterlife dreams of finding a reader as dedicated as Jones.

Guess this means I will finally try to finish Swords from the West

Any suggestions for newbies to Lamb. If one were to read only one Lamb book, which one should it be?

I'm in. I'll be reading Genghis Khan.

Bill Ward recommended Swords from the West as the best place to start. I'm 1/2 way done and it's been mostly top-notch and never less than solid. There's a Cossack story in Return of the Sword that's also great.

Decisions, decisions ... I could go with Riders of the Steppes: The Complete Cossack Adventures, Volume Three (having already read the first two), or maybe The Long Ships.

Or I remember seeing some posts on Black Gate over the past few months about historical authors that looked worthy of further investigation.

Much as I like many of Lamb's non-fiction books, it is, indeed, with the fiction that I would start. Swords from the West is a very strong collection, although only two stories in the entire book are actually connected.

I happen to think that once you get past the one or two early (and shorter) entries in Wolf of the Steppes you're reading some of the finest adventure stories ever told (and they're all about the same character), but I've had people disagree and tell me that the Cossack adventures REALLY get good with volume 2, Warriors of the Steppes. I still can't wrap my head around why. I think they feel that there's more blood and mayhem in the later ones, but there's plenty in the first ones, too, and lots of wily cleverness. Lamb's prose is prettier by the time he writes Swords From the West, but his plotting starts out strong, and so does his scene setting.

If you're deadset on reading his non-fiction (which was all that you could find for YEARS) than I recommend Hannibal, either of his two books about the Crusades, March of the Barbarians, Genghis Kahn, or Tamerlane. March of the Barbarians is perhaps his very best (Lamb's son thought so as well) and should be read in preference to Genghis Kahn because it's a thorough history of Mongols written later in his life after he had access to more research. It covers Genghis Khan AND his successors It's compulsively readable. It's also available in a volume that collects Tamerlane as well that is titled The Earthshakers.

Joseph, what's your opinion of Cossack volume 1 versus volume 2?

I think the post you're think of re: Swashbucklers was over here:
http://www.howardandrewjones.com/hero...

There are some excellent suggestions amongst the comments of the post as well.

The Long Ships, by the way, is a great Viking novel.

Howard wrote: "Joseph, what's your opinion of Cossack volume 1 versus volume 2?

I think the post you're think of re: Swashbucklers was over here:
http://www.howardandrewjones.com/hero......"

Yep, I remember seeing that post and being thrilled that there was a Grey Maiden omnibus in the works. I was also thinking of Black Gate posts like:

http://www.blackgate.com/2013/10/10/v...

and

http://www.blackgate.com/2013/10/29/t...

Unfortunately it's been long enough since I read the Cossack books that I don't remember much except really enjoying them both.

I haven't read The Long Ships, but I recently rewatched the movie for the first time since I was about 12.

Eric Brighteyes might also be a good choice.

Or to stretch the definition slightly, I think most of K.J. Parker would qualify -- very few of Parker's books have any kind of overtly supernatural element to them.

Decisions, decisions.

The Long Ships movie only covers a third of the book, but is pretty faithful to it. Great Stuff.

I must have missed those BG posts! That sounds like great stuff. Martin knows what he's talking about.

For many years my only actual memory of the Long Ships movie was the execution scene. I was happy to be able to finally put it into some kind of context.

I have my local library tracking down a few books by Henry Treece, and I am really looking forward to reading The Great Captains. I understand these books are realistic; dark, grim and bloody. Just the way life would have been in the Dark Ages.

S.wagenaar wrote: "I have my local library tracking down a few books by Henry Treece, and I am really looking forward to reading The Great Captains. I understand these books are realistic; dark, grim and bloody. Just..."I can't recommend The Great Captains enough. Treece was poet and it shows in the beauty of his writing. I have but haven't read his books about Bouidica and J Caesar yet. But look great.

I've just finished a long string of Sabatini books -- The two short story collections of Captain Blood, The Sea Hawk, Scaramouche, and the original Captain Blood.

And I've just finished scanning through several reviews of these books. The… strange conclusions of some reviewers never fail to amaze me. Several downgraded the short story collections because they weren't novels. Others downgraded the short stories because Captain Blood always won. Um. They're historical adventure stories.

A handful recognized the issues with race and gender as problematic, then, to my eyes, downgraded the books too far accordingly.

Note, that the last groupread is ending but had strong ties to this one (historical fiction). There, Derek just posted a wild/sobering experience there as he read an obscure REH work and stumbled upon the evil "Yazidi".

That experiences highlights so much about how we can enjoy/not-enjoy stories based loosely on history.

Has anyone else read the Brazen Peacock, by REH?

Link to Derek's comment:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Holy oversight, Batman, we almost missed acknowledging Harold Lamb's birthday (born Sept 1, 1892)!

Thanks to Weird Tales Magazine Facebook feed for that alert...

And a few more of interest:
The "International REH Fan Association" on Facebook noted Edgar Rice Burroughs Bday is also Sept-1...and Weird Tales notes that C.J. Cherryh turned 72 today!

S.E. wrote: "Note, that the last groupread is ending but had strong ties to this one (historical fiction). There, Derek just posted a wild/sobering experience there as he read an obscure REH work and stumbled ..."

(Holds up hand). I read it in an old paperback, years back. I hadn't made the connection with current events, though. Too long ago.

Thanks for acknowledging Lamb's birthday!

I have started reading Eaters of the Dead, by Michael Crichton. I am a fan of the movie, and have never read the book; now is a perfect time!

S.E. wrote: "Has anyone else read the Brazen Peacock, by REH?"

I have. I have it in the REH Foundation Tales of Weird Menace. The Yezidis also appear in the El Borak story, "Three-Bladed Doom" (which some of you might be more familiar with as the Conan story "The Flame Knife" (de Camp had turned the El Borak story into a Conan story).

S.wagenaar wrote: "I have started reading Eaters of the Dead, by Michael Crichton. I am a fan of the movie, and have never read the book; now is a perfect time!"

The few Crichton books I've read I've found to be pretty shallow in terms of characterization, and I could never get into them, but Eaters of the Dead is an exception. I liked it even more than the movie. I've been meaning to read some of the source material about Ibn Fadlan's travels among the Norse tribes.

Am now about 100 pages into The Long Ships and am really enjoying it. Already Orm has been captured, made a member of the Viking crew, been captured again (by Moors), served the Andalusian caliph and made his way back to the northland.

Finished The Long Ships and thought it was excellent. Now I need to rewatch the movie because not only was it an adaptation of only the first 100 pages or so of the book, but I think it took considerable liberties.

Just started The Savage Warriors(The Dark Island) by Henry Treece, barbaric Celts v.s. the Roman Empire circa 30-60 A.D. Good fun so far: Treece's writing is a little denser than what I have been reading lately, so I will have to work a little harder! Also got myself a copy of The Great Captains to read soon. I tried to get these books via the inter-library loan system, but the only copies they could find in Ontario were located in the Toronto library-no lend to small northern-Ontario town readers, I guess! Oh well, I got both books for less than $25, shipping included.

And (based on comments above) I just picked up The Crusades and The Savage Warriors by Henry Treece. And The Great Captains should be en route.

(And after flipping briefly through The Crusades, I'm starting to wonder if maybe Dad owned a copy at one point -- it looks vaguely familiar ...)