Reading the Chunksters discussion

This week's post is late, so I created one. I'm not quite done with this section, so everyone feel free to bring up your own topics until the moderator comes back.

Thanks, Anne. I did want to say that this section was amazing. I was not liking Gwendolen at all and really not able to see life from her point of view. But this section changed that for me. It seemed to magically make her situation very real to me—very powerful writing!

Peg wrote: "Thanks, Anne. I did want to say that this section was amazing. I was not liking Gwendolen at all and really not able to see life from her point of view. But this section changed that for me. It see..."

I agree with Peg, GH showed that she does think of others and not just herself. She was concerned with her mother's well being and was bravely trying to accept having to work to earn a living despite her having been brought up to not to expect to have to. She tried to honour what Lydia asked of her and at the same time she was burdened with how she could help her mother. She still has moments when she wants her own way but who doesn't at her age.
Grandcourt, however, showed himself to be more of a cold fish than previously and I am not sure what motivates him to do anything. His comment about Lush was quite heartless since he had been with him for quite a time.

I was impressed with Klesmer's behavior in regards to Catherine Arrowpoint. Everyone else seemed to be obsessed with the money and status a marriage to her would bring, but Klesmer actually cared for her as a person instead. Catherine, by being willing to sacrifice her inheritance to be with him, proved herself worthy of that regard. I hope their characters have a happy ending.

Gwen behaved like a spoiled, selfish child when she first learned of her family's downfall. She seemed to have no understanding of the realities of the world, so she couldn't fathom that the world was not going to revolve around her and that she couldn't expect people to always do what she wanted. Although Klesmer's words to her were hard for her to hear, they really were in her best interest. It isn't easy to hear that kind of criticism, though, so I did feel sympathy for her hurt feelings.

Mr. Gascoigne seems to be a good person. He was willing to make many personal sacrifices, and he tried to make the best of a bad situation. He looked out for all who were under his protection. If he was a more selfish person, he would have looked out for only his own children or his own needs, but instead he found a position for Gwen and a home for his sister-in-law and her daughters. He could also have tried to force Gwen into marrying Grandcourt, but he did not.

I disliked Grandcourt even more after reading this section. I think Gwen is going to really grow to regret this decision. If Grandcourt can be that dismissive of Lush, who has been with him for years, and that cruel toward dogs, then there is no reason to believe he will be kinder to Gwen when they are married.

Anne wrote: "I was impressed with Klesmer's behavior in regards to Catherine Arrowpoint. Everyone else seemed to be obsessed with the money and status a marriage to her would bring, but Klesmer actually cared f..."

All good points. I agree both Klesmer and Catherine acted very nobly and I am glad that they will be with one another. They are choosing to marry the person they love and respect rather than for money.

Thanks all! We were hit by the flu in my house so sorry for the lag. I was going to just keep this section for an additional week if that’s ok? I’ll post more on this section letter this morning - this book keeps getting better!

Tracey wrote: "Peg wrote: "Thanks, Anne. I did want to say that this section was amazing. I was not liking Gwendolen at all and really not able to see life from her point of view. But this section changed that fo..."

It seems with Gwen that Grandcourt loves the chase, if she had not played coy I wonder if he would have maintained his interest. Despite her headstrong nature, I wasn't too surprised that she ultimately accepted his offer - based on her background and training a life of toil probably seemed unthinkable to her.

Anne wrote: "I was impressed with Klesmer's behavior in regards to Catherine Arrowpoint. Everyone else seemed to be obsessed with the money and status a marriage to her would bring, but Klesmer actually cared f..."

Klesmer and Catherine were darling! Although she was not as extreme as Gwen in her original plans to eschew marriage entirely, she did opt to marry out of love rather than for stature which appears to be unusual for people with her fortune at the time. I thought Klesmer's review of what it meant to be an 'artist' was probably way over Gwen's head - he clearly didn't seem to think she would be good for much other than being a pretty face on stage.

What did you all think of Lush? At first I thought he was so noble, defending the mother of Grandcourt's children, but it turns out he was just acting out of selfish motives and didn't see an upside for himself in a marriage between Grandcourt and Gwen. We learn that Gwen has spurred Grandcourt to dismiss Lush - do you think he will really disappear?

Dianne wrote: "What did you all think of Lush? At first I thought he was so noble, defending the mother of Grandcourt's children, but it turns out he was just acting out of selfish motives and didn't see an upsid..."

Lush does come across as being self-serving but since he had been with the family quite some time, I can see how he might be concerned if he should lose his position. Because Lush has been with Grandcourt so long he must be aware of his cold attitude towards others and probably surmised that he would make a bad husband whoever he married, therefore why not seek a marriage that would benefit himself.

Glad you're better, Dianne.

If that earlier section made me think of Pride & Prejudice, this one reminded me of Sense & Sensibility - but the distress of poverty feels much more real here.

Gwen's love and concern for her mother is probably her best quality - it's easy to forget she's not yet 21. So even though she's frequently high-handed and a bit silly in her ideas of going on the stage straight into 'respectable' parts, I still squirmed for her at her takedown.

Dianne wrote: "Thanks all! We were hit by the flu in my house so sorry for the lag. I was going to just keep this section for an additional week if that’s ok? I’ll post more on this section letter this morning - ..."

I hope you are all feeling a lot better soon. There is a virulent flu doing the rounds here too.

I actually liked Gwen for the fact that she asked Klesmer for his advice.

I see doomed marriage ahead. I can understand why she is marrying Grandcourt and can see that she does like him. Probably for all the wrong reasons though. Yet as is referenced towards the end of this section Gwen understands little of the real nature of marriage and anyone who can marry someone who she knows has so ill treated another woman by whom they have a number of children, probably should know they might also be on the receiving end of ill treatment at some point. But then I don't think that Gwen can see much beyond her immediate self.

I am happy for Catherine and Klesmer and think this marriage for love is the counterpoint to what I think will be a unhappy marriage between GC and Gwen.

What really irritates me though is the treatment of Gwen's poor sisters. They just get shoved into other rooms all the time. It was like Eliot wanted there to be sisters without them actually being characters in the book. But you never know they may come into the story more as we go on, but it doesn't seem like they will at this stage.

I see Eliot as also commenting on the limited roles for women in English society at that period: a household of women is dependent on either inherited wealth (just lost in Gwen's mother's case), or the resources of some man.

The possibilities of going out to work are sparse: the governess role which Gwen can't stomach, or acting/singing which isn't always regarded as 'respectable' especially if one isn't especially talented. The only other option is marriage.

Gwen chooses the latter despite her abhorrence of the Lydia Glasher situation because she's exhausted other options, and she has the rather naive belief that she can 'control' Grandcourt and thus make things better for Lydia Glasher.

I found it very brave of Eliot to make the Victorian mistress and her plight so visible here. Much of Victorian fiction glosses over these women.

Good points by everyone. As Bron said poor GH is very naive and also doesn’t have a great example to look to in her mother’s marriages. I agree with Roman Clodis that Eliot was indeed brave by presenting several topics that are ‘not to be mentioned’ especially by a woman. This was Eliot’s last novel and seemed to grow in confidence in writing truth rather than writing to entertain.

It is interesting to read these comments with the hindsight of having read the rest of the book, but I'd better not say why here!

I haven't made my mind up about Gwen yet, or any of them for that matter. I felt like this section really started to get into the meat of the story and show us the complexities of the characters and it was enjoyable to read.

The comments here about Gwen's age resonate - it's sometimes easy to forget how young she is, and limited in life experience.

When Klesmer and Catherine hooked up I felt a bit of premonition dread... seems like they are being set up to make a statement in the story about the consequences of stepping outside of social convention. I hope I am wrong, I am rooting for love!

Dianne wrote: "Thanks all! We were hit by the flu in my house so sorry for the lag. I was going to just keep this section for an additional week if that’s ok? I’ll post more on this section letter this morning - ..."

Sorry to hear that DIanne, we got knocked back a bit here too. Get well soon!

I was struck in this section how Gwen's primary objection to becoming a governess was that she would have to be interviewed for the role, and that she would inevitably be evaluated for her on the job behavior. A life on the stage would involve loads more criticism from loads more people, but perhaps Gwen didn't see it that way at all.

Bron wrote: "I see doomed marriage ahead. I can understand why she is marrying Grandcourt and can see that she does like him. Probably for all the wrong reasons though. Yet as is referenced towards the end of t..."

Tracey wrote: "I actually liked Gwen for the fact that she asked Klesmer for his advice."

I thought the same thing Bron. If you are going to have characters, don't just use them as decorations. I would have liked to see more interactions among the sisters. Do they see Gwendolen sacrificing herself for the good of the family or as selfish person that wants all. I think it would add to the story.

I have been hit with the flu which turned into pneumonia as well. It has been awhile getting my body back to teaching and normalcy. I have been hesitant coming back to the group because I was afraid I was so behind. In fact, I am with everyone else. Whew! Forgive me if I am putting too much here on this strand. I just finished chapter 32 and can't get over how educated and knowledgeable Eliot was for that time period. She brings obscure and ancient literary references to her story telling that I find fascinating. I hate that Gwen feels like there is only one course left to her and her family. It seems she tried everything before she finally agreed to Grandcourt and I can't help thinking if Grandcourt really loves Gwen or only sees her as a quarry to catch. Is that the right word to use?

If anyone else is interested in the topic of women on the C19th stage, I can recommend this which I'm currently reading: The Invisible Woman: The Story of Nelly Ternan and Charles Dickens.

The early chapters detail theatrical families and how children, even babies, are introduced on stage far earlier than we might expect. It adds to the reasons, on top of those given by Klesmer, why Gwen's plan was extremely unlikely to succeed.

I'm caught up to this point now. I'm continuing to enjoy the book and I'm eager to find out how the book comes together!

Karen, there are some interesting developments coming up.

While I was engrossed in the story, mostly with Eliot’s writing and the layering of characters and sub plots, I can’t say the non linear plot line isn’t beginning to run its course with me. By the time I read chapter 21, I don’t know if I was tired or read too late, but I didn’t grasp where I was in time with Gwendolyn. I thought I had left her to her own devices and Deronda was on his way to meeting her after having seen her for the first time in Leubronn? It took me a moment to realize that I was in the present with Gwendolyn as she’s in Offendene tending to her family’s financial loss. Oops.

Herr Klesmer’s assessment of Gwendolyn’s talents doesn’t seem off the mark, considering Mrs. Arrowpoint had said something in a similar vein regarding Gwendolyn’s singing capabilities. What I found curious about the interaction between Gwendolyn and Herr Klesmer was that she had called on him to seek his council on whether or not she has any talent in becoming an actress; but I don’t believe she was prepared to hear what he had to say…she wasn’t willing to listen, it appeared. Gwendolyn, seemed to be living in an alternate reality; especially, when it came to her sense of self…or rather lack there of. I doubted if anybody had ever told this girl “no,” up until this moment. The Meryick sisters were a nice juxtaposition to Gwendolyn, I thought. They used those exact skills Herr Klesmer speaks of to run their household independent of any man. I’m always tickled by moments such as these, when women are depicted against the norms of society.

Something else I thought about while reading this section…Gwendolyn keeping the necklace Deronda had repurchased for her. I wasn’t sold on the idea that it was the idea of Deronda himself that was her attachment to that particular necklace. For some reason, I thought it a reminder to her of the gambling hall and what she could be doing there? I didn’t know.

The latter chapters in Book 3, I wasn’t sure what was going on with Gwendolyn and Grandcourt. I found it quite odd how as a reader, I was left with the two of them trying to justify one another’s peculiar and bad behaviors. I understand Gwendolyn going back on her word, although I wouldn’t ever agree it was the right choice, to Lydia because of her financial ruin, but Grandcourt…he has choices. What does it say about a person like Grandcourt, someone who is titleated by the discomfort he creates in others? Grandcourt continued to make my skin crawl, and the sense of foreboding only grew stronger from this point forward for these two.