21st Century Literature discussion
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Suggestions for Changes to 21st Century Lit.
So take my suggestions with a grain of salt, because I have not (so far) participated in any book discussions, although I did vote twice and would have participated had the books I voted for won (they didn't). But it would seem to me that the best way to attract a crowd is if a show is going on. By that I mean if there were, say, even only three people who were dedicated to making a book discussion happen then there would be something for the more casual reader to latch on to.So if a book is divided into, say, four parts (one for each week of the month) and the three dedicated participants all agree to write at least one substantive commentary for each section at the start of each week and at least one (preferably more) reply to the comments of others during that week, you get a real discussion going on for the book that someone else might then see and join in on.
Of course, the bigger problem might be getting people to read the book first, which they need to do to really join a discussion(*). To that end I see two barriers that might prevent participation: (1) Length. Long books require a greater time commitment while shorter ones are easier to fit in if you would not otherwise have read it. (2) Availability. Some books have been chosen that are published by small presses and not easily available everywhere. A book I can rely on my local library to have is actually most ideal, since it also eliminates the cost barrier.
(*) Or maybe not. If a book being discussed is one someone has heard about or by an author someone has read something else by, they might join in even not having read the book.
I don't know if anyone has checked to see if there are people who vote for a book and then don't actively participate in the discussion after that book wins, but since winning books pretty much always get at least three votes it should not be too hard to get people to commit to active participation. That is, assuming that there are enough people really interested in specific book discussions, which I would think there must be.
I don't know how useful any of that might be, but I offer it for whatever it might be worth.
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Feel free to discuss what works well or badly in other groups you follow!
I like the Questions of the Week. Don't think I've responded to any this year, but they sometimes give an opportunity to discuss topics which I've otherwise had to post about solo or talk about with one or two friends - and hear more about what others think. I am not big on group reads and, aside from upcoming translation prizes, I'm interested in reading pre-21st century books - I have been following a couple as group reads elsewhere - so I am not very relevant to that side of the group. Re. David's point about people voting on books and then not joining in: I have not voted on any group reads.
There do seem to be a *lot* of group reads in this group and as an onlooker it can appear a bit overwhelming. I really admire Hugh's diligence in keeping up with them and with the group reads from several other groups - but I couldn't do the same as I wouldn't enjoy that volume of 'prescribed' leisure reading.
The two groups with books I've been interested in have recently been reading:
- one major classic in sections over several months (Ovid's Metamorphoses), so plenty of time to catch up and change pace
- one longish modern classic over the last two months, with plans to read one sub-250pp book a month for the following couple of months. (NYRB Classics group)
In terms of pacing, regardless of the vintage of the books, this immediately looks more manageable for someone who doesn't want to be all about group reads, whether because they want to read other stuff, or because they are busy.
Antonomasia wrote: "aside from upcoming translation prizes, I'm interested in reading pre-21st century books..."I wonder if anybody else would be interested in including pre-21CE books that only become available in English in the 21CE. Or, to bend the rules/ identity of this group further — making allowance for contemporary authors whose best works are in the late 20th CE. Maybe not as a regular thing, but an exception we allow once in a blue moon...
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We did have a no-rules wild card in January 2018, the intention being to allow any book from any era (even non-fiction) - so that is an idea we'd be receptive to - or perhaps an open pick in which just the date-based limitations are relaxed, since our wild card enthusiasts may prefer to keep their space separate.
If you look back to what the group attempted to do in its early days (2012-13), you will see all sorts of oddities - non-fiction, a regular poetry spot and more simultaneous discussions, but some of those attracted very little interest - it does show that all rules are potentially up for negotiation (though the 21st Century part is the nearest thing to a USP we have, and there are plenty of other groups that focus on the very new and on prize lists)...
Thanks Hugh. I didn’t even know they have active discussion groups on GR last January! I’m still groping about to figure out what’s “out there” in the wild Thanks for the pointer, now I have to do some detective works to figure out which group is reading Ovid without me, and which group is doing the very new and on the prize list ...
Lia wrote: "Thanks for the pointer, now I have to do some detective works to figure out which group is reading Ovid without me, and which group is doing the very new and on the prize list "https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
You're already a member at the Mookse & the Gripes where a lot of longlist-reading goes on.
Another big group that covers Booker longlists: https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
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Thanks for the pointer, now I..."
I could probably recommend a few, but that might encourage more of our members to leave - some of us already try to follow quite a number of groups! Outside this group my favourites are "The Mookse and the Gripes" (very strong on the Booker and other UK-based book prizes) and "Newest Literary Fiction" (a private group but quite a lively one which is receptive to new members). I have never really investigated groups that focus on classics, but I am sure there are plenty out there...
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Thanks for the suggestions, please keep them coming!
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Ditto on the appreciation for all the comments and suggestions thus far!
Thanks everyone!Hugh wrote: "I could probably recommend a few, but that might encourage more of our members to leave..."
Sorry Hugh, I’m like the living, breathing Bad Djinn who tries really hard to be helpful, but. Tell me your wish, and watch my monkey paw fingers curl...
When I came across the group in mid December 2018, I joined, but I did not start participating right away so that I could gauge how best I fit in and how best for me to participate. My first impressions were that the group was well organized, it stayed true to it's vision as a group, and it was managed in an orderly fashion. Admirable qualities that I appreciate in any group.In conjunction to these admirable qualities however, the group also to me felt very formal, stuffy, and rigid. I am rarely intimidated by anything on the internet, but my first time browsing the group and its past discussions, I actually wondered if I would fit in at all, as I felt intimidated by some of the established participants of the group. To be clear, this is no direct fault of the established participants and I no longer feel this way.
I mention all this simply to say: If I had to guess, I am guesstimating that the reason why some users who are members, but who prefer to lurk and not participate, might have something to do with the vibe that the group gives off. Being formal and rigid is good in certain circumstances, and perhaps such traits come naturally with the style of books the group is reading: future potential literary classics.
However, it also may not lend itself to having the group appear accessible or welcoming to some of its own audience. This group is smart and thoughtful and it shows, but it does not feel fun, free, nor flexible. To be clear again, I am NOT insinuating that the group should dumb itself down, because then I'd definitely leave. What I am saying is that in addition to being smart, formal, and organized, the group should make attempts to also be accessible, welcoming, and fun.
===SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
1. The question of the week discussions are fantastic and I love them! More of this.
2. Group reads in general are tough for many readers because we each have our own individual reading schedules. Perhaps consider doing fewer? Instead of a monthly read, perhaps do quarterly? During the in between months, consider doing number 3 below...
3. Consider non group-reads polls about books, literary games, a 1 question quiz with multiple choice answers of the week. Basically, activities that lighten the mood and atmosphere.
4. I see that there are 10 moderators listed, but I have only seen two actively participate, plus two others participate sporadically. I'm sure there is a valid reason for this, but the optics of it are off. In another group I'm in, the "duties" of the moderators are listed under each moderator's name in the moderator tab. Perhaps consider doing this, so members know who is still a moderator and which moderator is responsible for what and when.
5. Also in another group I'm in, the head moderator has several times posted an "are you still here, then tell me your favorite animal in the comments. If you don't, you will be removed from the group for lack of participation." This is drastic but I think it will be a good idea to cull out long time non-participants. No need to have dead weight from accounts that are no longer active and no longer wish to belong. Any user who was unjustly removed, will be free to rejoin at their leisure.
6. I am in another group that from my impression feels cliquey, with a core set of its users communicating among themselves and with no one else within active discussions. I don't see that happening here a bunch, but it does happen. In any group with a large number of people, I know it is natural for cliques to form. Nonetheless, I think that anything the moderators can do to lighten the atmosphere so that the shrinking violets and the wallflowers feel welcomed, would be good.
I am naturally a vocal individual and I speak up when compelled. None of the above is meant as a dis: since the question was asked, I answered. I will also say that my above collective opinion is not singular. I have reason to believe some other members feel similarly but won't express it. Nonetheless, I speak only for myself.
Lastly, I also think that over time, it is natural that overall group participation will wane and taper off. It is difficult for a group's peak energy to sustain indefinitely. So with that in mind, my advice would be to improve upon and strengthen what is working, and sever/retire what is not working. People have lives outside of books and outside of Goodreads so the occasional participation from members is still good, when it happens.
I would say (as a mod in another group where we are very much ad hoc) that listing duties is a formal and rigid way to go about things.Also disagree with 'culling' inactive members. It is nice to browse discussions from the discussions tab without always having to participate. And inactive genuine members (i.e. not spam accounts etc being a nuisance elsewhere on GR) are doing no one any harm. I have never seen the logic in removing inactive members. It is not as if groups require a subscription fee they are failing to pay, and people are more likely to start to join in if they can readily browse from their groups or discussions page - which they can if they are a member, but not if they have been booted out.
Re accessibility - whilst the following may be more appropriate to groups that actively flag the 'difficulty' of their prefferred works, like Brain Pain or the Buried Book Club, there is also a need and an audience for a more academic style of discussion. The people who like that have far fewer groups to choose from, and not every group of the relatively few with that approach will be reading books that interest a particular user.
Bit of an irony making a typo in there looking like a common misspelling...
I like this group because the book discussions are actually discussions, with questions posed and different reactions recorded and discussed. I do not think there are too many books a month - one does not have to read them all! I like that there is an expectation that if you vote for a book and it wins you will participate to some degree in the discussion -- even if it is just to say you did not like the book and stopped reading after 1, 10, 100 pages. I like that one can go back to an old discussion and comment and likely have someone respond to your comment. I have discovered authors I would never otherwise have encountered because of this group. I love the weekly discussions, even when I don't participate. I love the short story selections, even if it is the thread I get to the least often. Current moderators are great (as have been all the moderators that have been active while I've been a member). It is great that new moderators are added when an older moderator needs a break. Discussions in this group rarely get rude or otherwise inappropriate. I guess I'm pretty happy with things. The only thing I'd throw in for consideration is have an occasional focused month, such as only books of short stories nominated, or only books under 300 pages, or only translated books, or only books by authors whose last name starts with "E," or maybe even "memoir month!"
Mod
Thanks for the suggestions, Cindle. I'm not ignoring the others, but wanted to address a couple that I think have fairly simple answers.
There are now fewer moderators listed. One of the things we recently discussed was deleting the non-active moderators; I just hadn't gotten to it yet. Now I have. I changed one I couldn't delete to "inactive". Luella is not an active moderator, but has moderator powers, as she is the awesome prime mover behind archiving our old discussions.
We have 5 active moderators. They all take place in discussions and pick books for the moderator picks. You won't see all of them in every discussion, or even most, as we have to pick and choose our books to read as well. While many groups reflect the personality and vision of their moderator(s), mods here tend to be more 'background', keeping things running because we enjoy the group (and because someone has to do it). One of the reason there are so many moderators is because we need to keep it from becoming a chore instead of a joy.
Also in another group I'm in, the head moderator has several times posted an "are you still here, then tell me your favorite animal in the comments. If you don't, you will be removed from the group for lack of participation." This is drastic but I think it will be a good idea to cull out long time non-participants.
I actually started to do this exact same thing here, down to the "name your favorite animal" (I'd need to check dates to see if this idea was borrowed from me in your other group!). I gave up after awhile, as 1. it's hard work deleting hundreds of members, and 2. as Antonomasia said, inactive members aren't doing any harm. What's relevant is how many people participate in discussions, not how many are listed as members.
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I don't personally feel that the group is too formal - the rules we have are there to make the boundaries as clear as possible - I agree with Antonomasia that we need spaces where serious discussions are encouraged.
Incidentally we still have only one nomination for April's open pick and you have a few more days to influence that one...
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One thing you can do is go to the group's bookshelf and select "moderator pick" on the left, which will list most the books chosen by mods. I think you have to click on "view activity" to see which mod picked it. They will be shown as 'discussion leader'.
One thing I'm already intending based on your input is to have a "why was this book chosen?" section in the announcements for moderator picks.
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And there may be people reading the books without commenting.
I too enjoy the Question of the Week. I'm not always good at group reads, for the reasons others have mentioned, but am always curious about these threads. I'm also curious about why the moderator pick was chosen, so I love that idea.I do understand the stuffiness comment, but it's sort of a double-edged sword. The mods and members here are interesting people, many very articulate and well-read. That's a good thing! Maybe we just need space for those who aren't as confident in their opinions to share as well.
My suggestion is to maybe add a thread about what 21st century book you're currently reading. (Or is there a thread like this that I forgot about?) It might be something more members would share about, even if they don't have time for the group read. Just a place to say, "Hey, I'm reading this, like it, and here's why." And others would be drawn to it because we all secretly love adding to our toppling tbr pile, right? :-)
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I like that idea - it works quite well in other groups. I'm not sure I would limit it to 21st Century or even fiction...
I second the idea of a thread devoted to what 21 Century literature people are reading. One of the reasons I joined the group was to become more familiar with what's out there--there is a lot to choose from, and I think it would be interesting to see books that others are choosing to read, along with perhaps some input as to books and authors to keep an eye out for. I do all my book buying second hand, and too often I see something that was discussed here in the past--far to late for me to take part in the conversation. I vote for and take part in conversations concerning 21st C. books I already have on my shelves, but that's a small subset of all my books, mostly due to me not knowing which books to allocate my resources.
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21C's Wutz U Readin, Suckers?!!
I am a lurker who would not want to be purged for being inactive. Hi!
I also agree with the others here that the question of the week is my favorite part. It's a way to engage without committing to a group read.
Groups where I've participated in group reads in the past have tended to be ones that have fewer and longer group reads. I'm not in the Ovid group, but that's a good example. Another example was a group that read as much as possible of the backlist of one author, with a different author chosen every 3 months or so. It is easier to do a little participating if you have 3 months in which to do it.
I also agree with the others here that the question of the week is my favorite part. It's a way to engage without committing to a group read.
Groups where I've participated in group reads in the past have tended to be ones that have fewer and longer group reads. I'm not in the Ovid group, but that's a good example. Another example was a group that read as much as possible of the backlist of one author, with a different author chosen every 3 months or so. It is easier to do a little participating if you have 3 months in which to do it.
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21C's Wutz U Readin, Suckers?!!"
that would work :)
Marc wrote: "I believe no other group has yet used:21C's Wutz U Readin, Suckers?!!"
I love this.
Isn't there a welcome message that's sent out to all new members? Maybe it could be edited to cover the points in this thread that new readers may feel insecure about?
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We don't really do a welcome beyond the welcome thread and a few pinned posts that sort of layout the groups basics, but we could link to those things at the bottom of monthly announcements... Something like, "New to the group? Check out these helpful links... "
Kathleen, It's likely to have some shelf life. :D
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I don't post often, probably only a couple of times in the question of the week threads, and I agree that they are really interesting and valuable. I also don't think I'd ever participate in a group read unless the book was near the top of my TBR pile anyway. But I'd be very interested in a thread where people could provide info on what they're reading and tips on good, perhaps less well known 21C books.
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The aforementioned time when I asked people to name their favorite animals was just so that I could easily delete people who showed zero comments. It wasn't to punish non-participants, but just to drop people who maybe did a drive-by 'join' and then never showed up. The idea was to more accurately represent the actual membership. A Sisyphean task, as I soon discovered, and not a particularly necessary one.
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21C's Wutz U Readin, Suckers?!!"
Cindle, didn't you say you wanted to know more about each moderator? I think we can file this under "careful what you wish for"...
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Wait, that's not the right saying.
We need a thread dedicated to puns, don't we?
Marc wrote: "I'm always the jester, never the bride...Wait, that's not the right saying.
We need a thread dedicated to puns, don't we?"
Yes!
I have a new idea. This section started asking about how to get more participation in book discussions. Maybe the way to do that is change the voting system. The voting system as it is means people vote for one and only one book, the one they would most want to discuss. But that means there might be another book that more people would be happy to discuss that just does not get as many votes. If instead of asking people to vote for just one of the nominated books people were asked to vote for ALL of the nominated books they would be willing to commit to participate in discussing, then the book with the most votes would be the one with the broadest range of appeal.
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Goodreads doesn't provide a poll system that allows for multiple selections by each respondent. That has to be one of the main reasons it's not done.
I think it's important to find a way to get people to want to read the book that's scheduled to be read in a given month, whether they vote for it or not, and whether it was formerly on their tbr list or not.I'm not quite sure how to do that, but for the moderator picks at least maybe sharing more about why THIS book demands to be read NOW might help with participation.
Also it doesn't take a huge throng for a great discussion. Two people can have a great time in a 'group read' and can keep a conversation going. Maybe it would help to have two designated readers for each group read, instead of one mod...frequent posts might keep the book top of mind and on top in terms of reader alerts, and encourage participation.
Hugh wrote: "David, how would this work? The poll would either have to be hosted outside GR or the counting would have to be manual. Maybe not that laborious at current levels of participation but still potenti..."Given the number of people who vote on the polls, manual is not hard to do. I see all these complicated tables people come up with for dynamic lists of rankings of books for prizes and think this is infinitely easier. All you do is have a voting thread where people each enter only one comment that consists of listing which of the nominated books they would be willing to read and discuss if selected. One person's list might be just one book, another person's list three books, and another might have five. But at the end of the voting period going through the lists to count votes would be easy to do.
Lark wrote: "I think it's important to find a way to get people to want to read the book that's scheduled to be read in a given month, whether they vote for it or not, and whether it was formerly on their tbr l..."Speaking just for myself, there are some books I would be willing to read if they won and others I'm not interested in. The appeal of a discussion about a book I didn't want to read in the first place won't be very strong. In a book club that is a group of friends meeting face-to-face it's easier to get people to read books they would not want to otherwise read for the social aspect of the group, but an online forum does not have that same pull. Not for me, anyway.
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Encouraging people to go and change their votes as the polling period ends is largely just a rough method to achieve the same end.
Something else I've flirted with is having people vote on moderator picks, with the moderator offering a few choices (it would be up to the individual mod if they wanted to do this, of course).
So, please, let us know your ideas for improving the group and participation in the discussions!