Sci-Fi & Fantasy Girlz discussion

The Bechdel test asks if a work of fiction features at least two women who talk to each other about something other than a man. The requirement that the two women must be named is sometimes added. Many contemporary works fail this test of gender bias. On average, films that pass the test have been found to have a lower budget than others, but have comparable or better financial performance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_...

I feel ashamed that I've just learned about this today.

So to pass the test a work has to:

1.It has to have at least two women in it,
2.who talk to each other,
3.about something besides a man.

Can you think of any examples of literature that would pass this test?

The Bechdel test is fine just the way it is: http://www.avclub.com/article/bechdel...

Virginia Woolf A Room Of One’s Own:

“All these relationships between women, I thought, rapidly recalling the splendid gallery of fictitious women, are too simple… And I tried to remember any case in the course of my reading where two women are represented as friends… They are now and then mothers and daughters. But almost without exception they are shown in their relation to men. It was strange to think that all the great women of fiction were, until Jane Austen’s day, not only seen by the other sex, but seen only in relation to the other sex. And how small a part of a woman’s life is that.”

I think it's a great test. The first time I encountered it, I was startled to see how few books/movies/TV series actually pass it.

It really made me rethink a few things.

Alicja wrote: "I feel ashamed that I've just learned about this today."

:O
Of course you should be!
Just kidding... (maybe? :P)

I like the Bechdel test and after reading about it for the first time, I realized that I had been applying some kind of Bechdel test to media for a long time, and I think many women do this as well. I know this isn't science, but there's something I think should be considered for the Bechdel test and that is the duration of this interaction between two women. I could make any of the Twilight movies pass the test by having Bella ask Alice where the bathroom is. Having a 2 minute conversation between two women on a 2 hour film I don't feel it should be enough for it to pass the test.

All You Need Is Kill passes the Bechdel Test with flying colors, the movie (Edge of Tomorrow) even though it's not the traditional "dude" movie doesn't.

I recently read Fortune's Pawn which also passes the test. I can also think of Dare Me.

And of course every lesbian romance passes the test but I think adding those to a list would be considered cheating :)

Check out this episode of this podcast where these ladies discuss the Bechdel Test.
http://www.stuffmomnevertoldyou.com/p...

If you hadn't heard about the Bechdel test maybe you're not familiar with Alison Bechdel's work? I highly recommend Fun Home: A Family Tragicomic which is one of her memoirs. There's also Are You My Mother? another graphical memoir, but I haven't read that one yet. I will probably get to it soon, it's been on my Kindle forever.

Thanks Yoly! It seems like there isn't enough time to read everything I want and should read. I always feel behind, if I'm reading one genre then I feel like I am falling behind on a zillion others. I'm not big on memoirs although I've read a few so I'll get my hands on one of them soon (I think Fun Home is already on my tbr).

I've known about the Bechdel test for quite a while now, as well as that sometimes it's seen as controversal but I can't quite put my finger on it why that is. After all, you get lots of male characters who talk plot things instead of love things, so why can't we have female characters talking plot things as well?

A book series that manages to do this while having male lead characters is Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series.
Women talking about fighting, women talking politics and other things. You get some female warriors as well (I'd wager the Queen's Horse guard is actually mostly women ... and they're elite.)

What also changed my view of things is what the author of the blog 'Reel Girl' does: analyzing how female characters are depictured in media, especially her daughters' toys, cereal boxes, movies (+promo material), you name it.
(Some of her posts are a bit repetitive though.)

To "ass" this test? I'm sensing something overtly sexual in the way you phrased this...

A great early example of B-test passage is the novels of Dorothy Sayers. Although Lord Peter Wimsey is the hero and detective there are often entire female subcultures that thrive perfectly well. GAUDY NIGHT is the book that comes to mind. (And of course all my books do pass, even though there are often male heroes...)

Matthew wrote: "To "ass" this test? I'm sensing something overtly sexual in the way you phrased this..."

My keyboard sticks sometimes, its all that gaming I do, and that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. :P

Sparrowlicious wrote: "I've known about the Bechdel test for quite a while now, as well as that sometimes it's seen as controversal but I can't quite put my finger on it why that is. After all, you get lots of male chara..."

I have the first book of the series on my shelf... I need a kick in the butt to start reading it.

The Bechdel test is a great test of the bare minimum. I highly recommend Fun Home and all of her Dykes to Watch Out for comics too (where the test originated). I didn't love Are You My Mother?

It's amazing the number of books and movies that don't pass even this low bar.

Sarah wrote: "
It's amazing the number of books and movies that don't pass even this low bar."

Especially when they only have the one female character in a band of men. A lot of action movies do that, have that one tough chick who half the time serves only as a love interest for the main hero, in a band of men. It would be just too awful to have 2 or more bad-ass chicks who don't fall in love with any men but do other awesome stuff. *sarcasm*

So true. If you look at Gamora in Guardians of the Galaxy, she's an assassin, she kicks ass, but then she's called "whore" by a character who supposedly can't lie or be anything other than literal, even though there's no basis. She's hit on. She gets two or three stilted lines exchanged with her sister as if they're strangers.

Incidentally, I thought Captain America: Winter Soldier was one of the better examples in past years, even though if it passed the Bechdel it was just barely. Black Widow was a full equal to Captain America, even if his name was on the movie. She was a buddy, not a love interest. She called the shots in most situations and got great liens. There were several other women in the movie who were fully their own and did not need saving, even if they somehow didn't manage to talk with each other.
And that's even before the fact that there are two African-American heroes in the movie as well.
I thought that was the best representation in a comic book movie yet

And even Gamora's conversation with her sister, if I remember correctly, was about men. Maybe not love interests but they were about their brother and father. And based on their relationship it seemed like what was keeping them interacting was the brother and father.

Another quite adequate example (even though it is an eye-roller of a film) is PACIFIC RIM. Yes, the hero had to be the male, but they had a quite powerful female co-star.

Sarah wrote: "So true. If you look at Gamora in Guardians of the Galaxy, she's an assassin, she kicks ass, but then she's called "whore" by a character who supposedly can't lie or be anything other than literal,..."

I agree with you Sarah - I really enjoyed that aspect of The Winter Soldier. I think that the Black Widow is a fabulous character. I don't tend to read comic books, but I've been tempted, just because of her.

The 'dressed like a whore' line is the weirdest line in Guardians since it is specifically from Drax and as far as they have shown us, Gamora hasn't (and wouldn't unless she were undercover) dress like any prostitutes we have seen and the line doesn't make sense. I get it was the setup to the 'joke' a few seconds later but man it was a clunker. After all the great lines I just sat there stunned 'Why is Drax calling her a whore?!'

And while I love Pacific Rim and was very..VERY.. happy that they did not have any kissy kissy, I wish Mako would have had more lines and told Raleigh to shut the hell up a few times. Still, it was better than a lot of female roles lately.

I still wish the female-centric Ghostbusters movie would happen.

I've seen a few people express the "controversy" over the Bechdel test being 'well just because two women are talking doesn't mean it's a good movie' or the other side of it 'just because it doesn't pass the Bechdel test doesn't mean it's not a good movie' which misses the entire point of the test which I think was to get the reactions above "I can't believe how many movies/books fail this simple test".

We have been so indoctrinated into our society that we don't even notice stuff like this in the movies. Having a team of men without women or with just one woman seems normal. The same movie with a team of women and one man would seem weird and would get so much flack for it its crazy to think. A team of men in an action flick is a team but a team of women in an action flick is a women's team, and unless they are dressed like they want to sell their bodies on a street corner, deemed unwatchable by most men.

I was under the impression that Guardians of the Galaxy was PG (didn't see it (yet?)) so this surprises me. Especially since that no-metaphor guy seems to be an alien, so earthly costums probably seem weird to him anyway. To me, this is pretty much random bs. Sorry.

Also, YES to the controversy the Bechdel test causes. It makes people think about this sort of stuff.

Gamora is an alien too so he'd be familiar with the clothes since they come from the same galactic society. But it did come out of nowhere although I believe it is a PG-13 movie.

Another quite good example is EDGE OF TOMORROW, the Tom Cruise movie. He is of course the star, but Emily Blunt is the one who has the shoulder cannons, and blows him away a good few times.

Partially due to awareness tests like Bechdel's, the movies really are changing. It is not that the producers want to be more supportive of women. It is because women buy most of the movie tickets. So they have to please us. (And whatever else one may say about Tom Cruise, he does do that roguish twinkle a fair treat and it is a thoroughly entertaining movie.)

And therefore it behooves us to apply our movie dollars wisely. Don't go see an outrageously offensive film. Complain bitterly about irritating bits like the GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY thing. They will change. Because they need us.

Emily Blunt's character in Edge of Tomorrow was great, but the movie doesn't pass the Bechdel Test. We could even say she was the only female character because the girl in Tom Cruise's troop could easily be named "Token" because she was just a token female character so people wouldn't complain it was "only dudes". In the movie they made Rita's engineer a guy and she was a female in the book, they even had a conversation that made me think while I was reading it how awesome it was that this book passed the Bechdel Test.

Regarding the test, I remember reading this article last year:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013...

Swedish cinemas take aim at gender bias with Bechdel test rating
Movies need to pass test that gauges the active presence of women on screen in bid to promote gender equality
You expect movie ratings to tell you whether a film contains nudity, sex, profanity or violence. Now cinemas in Sweden are introducing a new rating to highlight gender bias, or rather the absence of it.

To get an A rating, a movie must pass the so-called Bechdel test, which means it must have at least two named female characters who talk to each other about something other than a man.

Yoly wrote: "Emily Blunt's character in Edge of Tomorrow was great, but the movie doesn't pass the Bechdel Test. We could even say she was the only female character because the girl in Tom Cruise's troop could ..."

That's awesome!! Go Sweden!

I really enjoyed Edge of Tomorrow. I agree with Brenda that Emily Blunt's character was prominent, important, and didn't need saving. She wasn't a token - and there were other women who were soldiers. Again, the Bechdel test is just a minimum. Having a female lead in a decent movie like Edge of Tomorrow or The Winter Soldier or Gravity is just as exciting to me as having two women have a two minute conversation just to pass the test.

What I liked about that female soldier in the troop was, she was just one of the soldiers. She was not bringing them coffee, dressed like a slut, being rescued, the obvious token chick, or anything. She was just a professional doing her job in an ordinary, commonplace way.
That's the kind of soldier my daughter is. And that's the kind of woman we need in this kind of movie. If we get enough of them, the Bechdel test will become unnecessary.

Brenda wrote: "What I liked about that female soldier in the troop was, she was just one of the soldiers. She was not bringing them coffee, dressed like a slut, being rescued, the obvious token chick, or anything..."

Yes!

This weekend somebody also posted a look at all of the Star Trek series (not the movies) through the lens of the Bechdel Test. http://www.themarysue.com/star-trek-b...

And a few months ago, there was a look at new series Doctor Who & the Bechdel: http://rebeccaamoore.com/2014/05/29/u...

Great articles Sarah, thanks!

I'm one of those who would love, love, love a female Doctor. I was hopeful for the 12th Doctor until he was announced. I wasn't surprised with the analysis of RTD vs. Moffat, RTD has always been better with characters and character development while Moffat with plot. My favorite Doctor Who episode of all time was a collaboration of the two. If only they could ignore their differences and work together I think the show would have been much better. Sorry for that tangent, I get very fannish about Doctor Who (and Torchwood). :P

I'm enjoying Capaldi, but I would love to see a female Doctor, or one who isn't from the UK, or one who isn't white... He's an alien but he keeps coming up with the same type of face. Moffat isn't interested in those changes, though.

Sarah wrote: "I'm enjoying Capaldi, but I would love to see a female Doctor, or one who isn't from the UK, or one who isn't white... He's an alien but he keeps coming up with the same type of face. Moffat isn't ..."

No. If RTD had stayed he may have been a she. Like I said, I have some gripes with him but also during RTDs time we had a lot more inclusivity in general. We had a variety of sexual orientations, and a future with gender ambiguous individuals there. Maybe because RTD is gay that he was more sensitive to that kind of stuff. With Moffat all that stuff has decreased drastically.

J.S. wrote: "The 'dressed like a whore' line is the weirdest line in Guardians since it is specifically from Drax and as far as they have shown us, Gamora hasn't (and wouldn't unless she were undercover) dress ..."

Where I've seen the Bechdel test being considered controversial is when people are using it as the SOLE determining factor of whether or not a work is feminist. That's how I first saw it used, and I didn't like it then either, because things were passing, and therefore being declared feminist works, if they had two stereotypical housewives talking about the cookies they were baking, whereas a book that had several kickass females that just happened to never have them together in a scene was somehow not feminist. Now that I've got a better understanding of it, I don't mind it.

Shannon wrote: "J.S. wrote: "The 'dressed like a whore' line is the weirdest line in Guardians since it is specifically from Drax and as far as they have shown us, Gamora hasn't (and wouldn't unless she were under..."

I think like everything it needs to be used in context of the greater whole. Like you said, it is useful but shouldn't be seen as infallible or the only test.

Alicja wrote: "Shannon wrote: "J.S. wrote: "The 'dressed like a whore' line is the weirdest line in Guardians since it is specifically from Drax and as far as they have shown us, Gamora hasn't (and wouldn't unles..."

The line I'm referring to wasn't "dressed like a whore," which might have been forgivable if that was his experience of how prostitutes dressed. The line I'm thinking of was one where he specifically called her "this green whore."
It's lazy writing.

Here's a good post about why we should go see movies like Guardians, but also take them to task for their failings, so that the next movie can fail a little better, and sooner or later we can have, say, a Wonder Woman or Black Widow or Captain Marvel movie that doesn't suck. http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/08/guar...

Discovered that THE LEGO MOVIE fails the Bechdel Test. The larger problem is that almost all the characters are plastic toys, but even among the 'gendered' ones it fails, unless you insist that the pink unicorn kitty is a female.

Brenda wrote: "Discovered that THE LEGO MOVIE fails the Bechdel Test. The larger problem is that almost all the characters are plastic toys, but even among the 'gendered' ones it fails, unless you insist that the..."

Wow! I noticed that many kid movies even with animals in roles have more male voice actors than female voice actors. Also, the male animals look like those animals and the females have long lashes, pink bows, and other crap like that. When I was a little kid (like 5) I wanted to be a boy because they seemed to always have so much more fun on TV.

Yep. That is a whole separate issue. Like in Guardians of the Galaxy -- why are the nonhuman characters 'male'? Can trees be male, except ginkos? How can plastic bricks have a gender? Although there are some killingly funny bits in THE LEGO MOVIE, especially the girlfriend they have wished upon the grim 'n' gritty Lego Batman.

The Lego movie was fun, but frustrating. Wyldstyle was introduced as a kickass Lego ninja, then became gigglier and needier as the movie went on.

Have you heard of -- it surely will kick up on Google -- the parent who was reading THE HOBBIT out loud to her daughter? The girl insisted that Bilbo Baggins must be a girl. Who knows about hobbit gender anyway? None of Tolkien's work have the least scrap of sexuality in them. So the mom said sure. Bilbo is a girl.

I view the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for discussing a movie. Unfortunately when I do that while leaving a theater with my husband, he thinks I'm using it to pass judgement on whether or not its a good movie.

There are valid times for a film to fail. If you're watching a movie set in World War I about the troops in the trenches, there is no reason for them to write extraneous scenes just for the movie to "pass". If on the other hand you are writing a contemporary romantic comedy there is no reason why the main female lead and her best friend wouldn't have a conversation about something besides the men in their lives. (Please let it not be about shoes or clothes!)

I found this website Bechdel Test Movie List: http://bechdeltest.com/

It has a list of movies and whether it has passed the test (or part of the test). Pretty much all the action movies I binge on failed miserably. I'm sure its hard to find action movies that pass because it is stereotypically known as guy movies (although an ex-boyfriend had told me once that he is a bit disturbed that for me to like a movie it must first have a minimum amount of blood spilled... he was exaggerating, I swear :P). We need more sword, gun, and laser wielding kick-ass women on the big screen shooting at each other. :D

Reading The Stone Gods and when I got to a certain part I shouted "Oh, this passes the Bechedel test!" (three women talking about science, corporate control, and terrorism). My girlfriend's response was, "Of course it does honey, its written by a lesbian." And I was so proud of myself for identifying it too... *sighs*

Btw, the Lego movie: Unfortunately (?) I never saw it but there's a critique I read regarding the female character. I hope someone could confirm this: Apparently the female character is told that she has certain character traits but you never see her actually act like it. I can't remember which traits those were. Maybe 'wild', or something similar?

Btw, it's really funny that 'Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles' apparently passes the Bechdel test, although it's a movie about anthromorphic turtles.

I agree that this test doesn't tell you about the quality of the movie, but I love that it makes people discuss these issues.

I saw it recently, but as I recall the conversation it was not especially significant. Emmett tells Wyldsyde that she is a wonderful person -- he is a person (if a Lego can be a person) who is strictly vanilla and expresses himself only in banalities. But this is enough. Eventually she does ditch Lego Batman for him, which is very funny indeed since nobody ever ditches Batman. The traditional way for a Bat girlfriend to vanish is to be messily killed to increase Batman's angst.

As a white male, I've done my best to not fall into patriarchal thinking/writing. Alicja, you've got a stack of books, but if you ever get around to The Line give me your no-holds-barred assessment.

I am very skittish about asserting myself as either a feminist or pro-active against sexism because it just isn't my place to gauge any level of success or not. I'm not the direct victim of misogyny, so I can't dare declare any personal victories over it.

And that is pretty funny about Ninja Turtles. Some of my favorite movies seemingly bomb the Bechdel Test! District 9 and Minority Report. Every woman in those movies is talking about a man.

Loved The Descent, but sadly I think much of the movie was about a man despite the ONLY man in the whole film dying within the first five minutes.

Heh. The Thing doesn't pass the Bechdel test, either!

William, I am getting there to your book. Definitely this month but towards the end. I'm my own worst enemy when planning my reading tbr.

Its hard to find action, sci-fi movies that pass the test. You seem to have a similar taste in movies I do.

Although I guess every lesbian movie I watch passes the test by default. :P

I have a fellow teacher that swears up and down that Blue is the Warmest Color was a great film. I also found Monster to be heart-breaking, but it would be nice to have just a good old fashion lesbian love story without the monstrous trials attached. But I suppose that is more a product of society than of the film industry itself.

Brokeback Mountain made me cry. Shit, so did Cloud Atlas.

I wonder if Bound passed the Bechdel test....

I love Blue Is The Warmest Color! I think they are products of both. Most directors of lesbian films are not surprisingly men. I'm not saying men can't make lesbian films (or write lesbian books) but they need to make sure to do research into the woman's perspective, as well as into the way that women (especially lesbians/bis) perceive a woman's body. It is similar to m/m stuff I read, some women have written extraordinary stuff with men but others completely fail at it (and get called on it). Whether film or novels (or other media) the creator must take care to represent a respectful portrayal rather than a man's fantasy of f/f relationships or a woman's fantasy of m/m relationships (and I don't use the word fantasy in the genre sense). Or worse, stereotypically assigning the top/bottom, butch/femme roles with those relationships.

Btw, it's really funny that 'Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles' apparently passes the Bechdel test, although it's a movie about anthromorphic turtles.

I saw it on Sunday - yes, April has a female newspaper editor and they discuss....news! And there's a female flatmate who also has a very brief conversation with April which is also not about men.

I am very skittish about asserting myself as either a feminist or pro-active against sexism because it just isn't my place to gauge any level of success or not. I'm not the direct victim of misogyny, so I can't dare declare any personal victories over it.

But from a female perspective, it's nice to have men who actually think about these things - and very appreciated, because when something doesn't affect you directly, sometimes it can be overlooked, ignored or denied.

William wrote: "I am very skittish about asserting myself as either a feminist or pro-active against sexism because it just isn't my place to gauge any level of success or not. I'm not the direct victim of misogyny, so I can't dare declare any personal victories over it."

If you support that women and men are equally human and our life experiences equally valid, and how we are treated should not have anything to do with our plumbing, you're a feminist. Speak up and claim the name, because there are too many people running around who think "feminist" is a dirty word and can be used as a slur.

Elizabeth Bear had a good blog post today citing the Lego Movie as an example of a subverted Chosen One trope where there's a cool female character that has all the qualities of the Chosen One, but instead she empowers some guy to claim the title instead. http://matociquala.tumblr.com/post/97...

Lara Amber wrote: "If you support that women and men are equally human and our life experiences equally valid, and how we are treated should not have anything to do with our plumbing, you're a feminist. Speak up and claim the name, because there are too many people running around who think "feminist" is a dirty word and can be used as a slur. "

Nicely said!