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Killing off Characters...
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I didn't like JK Rowling killing off Sirius Black. I hadn't particularly bonded with the character but it felt unnecessary and flat.
I usually feel like throttling the author.And you've just spoiled some of your own work you daft 'un.
Michael wrote: "I usually feel like throttling the author.And you've just spoiled some of your own work you daft 'un."
Don't worry, Michael, they're not really spoilers. The fact that those characters are already dead is integral to the plot and you learn about it almost as soon as the books start. ;-)
Right, well, now you've got me confused.
There are characters that I haven't forgiven the author for killing off. But nevertheless, I do feel that if the plot, or another character's development demands it, then it's appropriate to kill off pretty much anyone.But there are exceptions. I couldn't kill off Flick in book 2 of my Flick Carter trilogy. That would be silly. It would be two seasons of Blake's Seven with no Blake. (yes I know they did that. and it WAS silly.)
However, I COULD kill her off by the end of the last book, if there was sufficient justification. And there are book series' that have done that (I won't name them in case you don't already know and might be spoiled)
In Lord of the Rings, Frodo could have been overcome by the ring and died with Gollum on Mount Doom. It would have been a perfectly justifiable ending.
None of my characters are "precious" to the extent that I wouldn't kill them (actually, Socko might be reasonably safe, since he has his own spinoff series)
I didn't mind any of the deaths in Harry Potter. Which is not to say I wasn't moved or upset at the time. On the other hand, in a popular other series (not named because of spoilers), when a particular character was killed off seemingly on the whim of the author "because I can", it effected a sea change in the rest of the book that had many readers up in arms.
Heck, even I, who relishes the prospect of a good killing off, thought it was a "brave" move!
But I don't think I'd go to George RR Martin's extremes.
Michael wrote: "Right, well, now you've got me confused."Lol! You'll have to read the books now!!! Tee Hee! ;-P
Tim wrote: "There are characters that I haven't forgiven the author for killing off. But nevertheless, I do feel that if the plot, or another character's development demands it, then it's appropriate to kill o..."I know the series you're talking about, Tim. (Main character dies in last book.)
Someone spoilered me and it's why I've never read the books. If I HAD read the books and the got to the end with the MC dying... well lets just say the result would NOT have be pretty!!!
I was upset about Sirius Black too. I can kill my characters - they're mine after all, but if Andy Barrett ever kills off Eddie Collins there'll be ructions!
I recall mentioning the killing off of Bane and received threats from a certain lady above ;~)
It is not easy to kill off a main character (it's almost like a form of suicide!) but sometimes it just has to be done. I have killed off a few of my main characters, but not until I am absolutely certain that they MUST die. If there's an alternative that won't alter the storyline, I try to take that route. If there is no valid reason for the death, it shouldn't be done.
I think... I think if you kill off a character, and a reader is really, really upset by that, then you've done your work incredibly well as a writer.The only character death that ever irritated me, really, was that of Marvin the Paranoid Android (that book's 30 years old, that's not a spoiler, right?). I was 11 when I first read it.
I think I respect a writer's bravery when they really go for it and kill a main character. The Doctor Who comic strip once killed off the popular companion Ace in a dramatic de-linking from the continuity of the official novels at the time. And it was a magnificent exit.
To just off a major character without much payoff, though, is a bit of a damp squib. I remember in the novel of Jurassic Park, Jeff Goldblum's character (all right, look, I read the book 20 years ago, OK, and I can't be bothered googling now) eventually dies from his wounds sustained in the T-Rex attack. And it's treated in such a low-key fashion that Crichton was able to bring the character back for the sequel without more than a throwaway gag devoted to his apparent resurrection. It's the literary equivalent of the bit in 80s Doctor Who when someone tells the Master they last saw him burning to death, and Anthony Ainley literally just giggles at them by way of explanation. Death is kind of a big deal, mmkay?
D.D. wrote: "I know the series you're talking about, Tim. (Main character dies in last book.)Someone spoilered me and it's why I've never read the books. If I HAD read the books and the got to the end with the MC dying... well lets just say the result would NOT have be pretty!!! "
I haven't read the last book - someone spoilered me too - I'll probably still read it when the Kindle edition finally comes down to a sensible price. I have no idea if it was justified or well handled, but I have seen an interview with the author where she said she had it in mind from the end of book 1.
There were certainly a lot of annoyed fans (I got ranted at, that's how I was spoilered - grrr)
You definitely read a book differently if you know ahead of time that a character dies; I think you invest less in them.
I always tell people, if they get a character named after them, that I don't guarantee they won't get killed in cruel and unusual ways... ;) (and of course, it isn't personal)
Its not a book I know, but last week I was sitting in a restaurant and there was a very loud woman on the next table, basically telling her companions and the whole restaurant how much she was enjoying Prisonbreak. I looked at my son, he looked at me, and i just had to say to him "no, don't do it ..."But OMG it was so tempting to spoil the whole thing for her. :D
D.D. wrote: "I know the series you're talking about, Tim. (Main character dies in last book.)Someone spoilered me and it's why I've never read the books. If I HAD read the books and the got to the end with the MC dying... well lets just say the result would NOT have be pretty!!! "
I don't have a clue which books you mean (I'm no good at cryptic crosswords either) so I may or may not have read these books.
I suppose that the classic example of this is Sherlock Holmes. Conan Doyle killed him off at the Reichenbach falls because he was bored with the character. The public outcry forced him to bring Holmes back.The one thing worse than killing off a main character is pretending to kill him off (but he's really alive). Didn't this happen to James Bond in both the books and the films? And Gandalf and Aragorn - both of whom fell a long way but miraculously landed in water, only to re-emerge a little while later.
For me there are times when you need to kill off the main character. Romeo and Juliet wouldn't work with a happy ending. LOTR has to kill of many of its characters. The plot almost demands it - it is the logical conclusion of the story.
I may be wrong, but from memory Aragorn's tumble into water was invented for the films, and almost entirely to give Arwen an excuse to appear in the second film. With the shot of Legolas, Gimli and Theoden looking over the cliff, I assumed it was going to be a nod to Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade's cliff tumble gag, particularly with John Rhys-Davies in the frame.
Im pretty sure you're right there Andrew. That was one bit that annoyed me in the film, which was otherwise wonderful.
It aggravated me too, it was a pointless meander in an already way-long film, AND a wasted opportunity for a nice in-joke.
I don't have a problem with it, if done right. For me, the counter question is, how do you feel about false jeopardy? This probably applies to film more, but if I sense there is no real jeopardy for a protagonist then I find it hard to get sucked in when they are threatened. Naturally, good books will have a range of conflicts to be a faced but if they are to be ones which threaten actual harm, then for me they need to be real.
I don't necessarily have a problem with killing a character off if it fits with the story. If it's unnecessary or my favourite character then it really puts me off reading it. I think I know which series you're talking about as well Tim. If it is, I've read the first one and was already sceptical about reading the second in the series when a friend spoilered me (at my request) about the last one.
There's another popular series which I enjoyed right up to the last couple of chapters when a character was killed for no real reason but to make an impact. The events that followed could just as easily have happened without that character's death. As a result, I'm unlikely to watch the films when they are released. I had a completely different reaction when a similar character died earlier in the series as it was necessary and fit well with the story (although I still cried a bit!).
Sirius' death was the one I liked the least in the HP series, I think I get why it was necessary (and it was better than the original one JK was considering) but it hit me the most. I think the bast spoilered death was Dumbledore (I'm presuming most people have a rough idea that certain characters die, even without reading the series but I'll spoiler it if you want :) ) when a group of people posted a poster announcing the death above a motorway. The police had to remove it as people were doing double takes at it and losing concentration on the road.
As for films, I was upset by the ending of the last film in the Twilight series. I was furious with who they'd killed off (the first one killed off) until I realised it was a 'what if' scene. By which point I'd missed most of the scene by being grumpy and had to watch it again!
Jay-me (Janet) ~plum chutney is best~ wrote: "I don't have a clue which books you mean (I'm no good at cryptic crosswords either) so I may or may not have read these books. "Don't look if you think you might regret it! (view spoiler)
Paul wrote: "I don't have a problem with it, if done right. For me, the counter question is, how do you feel about false jeopardy? This probably applies to film more, but if I sense there is no real jeopardy ..."
False jeopardy only works if you also have real jeopardy, IMHO. If you believe the characters are ultimately safe, then dangling them off a cliff is just an excuse for a bit of "McGuyver" style now get-out-of-that-ism.
✿Claire✿ wrote: "There's another popular series which I enjoyed right up to the last couple of chapters when a character was killed for no real reason but to make an impact. The events that followed could just as easily have happened without that character's death. As a result, I'm unlikely to watch the films when they are released. I had a completely different reaction when a similar character died earlier in the series as it was necessary and fit well with the story (although I still cried a bit!)."This was the "because I can" killing I referred to earlier. It wasn't necessary other than to rob the series of a happy ending.
Tim wrote: This was the "because I can" killing I referred to earlier. It wasn't necessary other than to rob the series of a happy ending. ""I meant (view spoiler). I've not read the whole series you were talking about (although I did guess which one you meant and it's the one my friend spoilered for me).
Because my main stuff is meant to be funny, killing characters is a bit of a no-no, so I'm restricted here to those I cull in my horror work.What seems to work for me is creating a sense of danger for the important characters by disposing of uninteresting bodies around them in such a way as to give the impression that it *might* be them next.
One of my characters died - he had problems with his colon... Had to get a joke in there! :)Black on topic. Sometimes, characters are blatantly killed, not because it's necessary, but because the author has ran out of ideas. Sirius Black, mentioned above, is a good example.
✿Claire✿ wrote: "Tim wrote: This was the "because I can" killing I referred to earlier. It wasn't necessary other than to rob the series of a happy ending. ""I meant [spoilers removed]. I've not read the whole s..."
Yes, that's the "because I can" killing. It basically crashed the series at that point.
And maybe, Tim, that was the point? It isn't easy to successfully run a series along beyond 3 books.
This is my main beef, when characters are killed for no apparent reason other than to shock. I think that sometimes, depending on the back story of the character (goodie or baddie), it makes sense for them to die. Sometimes its the humane thing to do.I just can't stand it when it's for shock value.
For instance: a book where the the MC is in the middle of a shoot out and has been shooting the baddies in the leg because (MC) doesn't want to kill anyone, who suddenly makes the call to shoot a best friend (mistakenly fighting for the baddies) in the head!!!
WHAT!!!
SO ANGRY!!!
Tim wrote: "✿Claire✿ wrote: "Tim wrote: This was the "because I can" killing I referred to earlier. It wasn't necessary other than to rob the series of a happy ending. ""I meant [spoilers removed]. I've not..."
Ah ok, I didn't realise that :)
Will wrote: "And maybe, Tim, that was the point? It isn't easy to successfully run a series along beyond 3 books."But the series in question finished neatly at the end of the third book, and could have just as easily finished almost the same without the death of that character. For me, it ruined the entire last book for me.
I read quite a few Karin Slaughter books and in one of them one of her main characters suddenly got killed right at the end of the book, not the series. I'm not going to say which one.It was so unexpected it really shook me as he was a nice character. Although I knew it was only fiction, it still made me feel really sad for some time after. Just shows how involved you can get in some books.
I generally like it when an author kills off a key character. It has to be done well though, and when it is, it can be very powerful and leave the reader with something to remember. Killing off characters makes things seem all the more real, too, and it also tells me that the author is bold and convicted, and it makes me wonder who's next. No one is safe in a story where people you've got to know die, perhaps not even the main protagonist.
Will wrote: "And maybe, Tim, that was the point? It isn't easy to successfully run a series along beyond 3 books."No, it didn't serve the story; it was gratuitous, nothing more.
Steve wrote: "I generally like it when an author kills off a key character. It has to be done well though, and when it is, it can be very powerful and leave the reader with something to remember. Killing off cha..."Me too. Also, when you've got characters that your protagonist *thinks* are dead, it means they really could be. There's now a very real chance they won't simply turn up at the end of book 3 saying, "Oh, were you looking for me? I've been sunning on a beach for the last 2 ½ books..."
But I also rather like the situation where a character believes someone is dead, even though we the readers know they're not.
Now I really love the Adam's family (no, not That Adam's family!!!) series by Mary Jane Staples, I LOVE some of her characters and HATE others in the series. In one of the books one of the main characters died.
I hated it!
Why???
WHY???
I'd spent maybe ten books getting to know this character, all for the author to kill them off! I felt cheated. (I also felt it was a cheap devise to bring in a new love interest for the spouse of the deceased, but I digress.)
My sister also said she hated it when prominent *good* characters where killed off. (She still hates me for killing Dax in Broken City, Jae Shin in Fracture and Evoric in The Promise, even though all of these characters are dead when the books start!!!)
I can see why authors do it: you don't want your readers to *know* everyone's safe when they start your book, you want them to worry that maybe their favourite character might not make it.
To do that characters need to die, important characters, characters that the reader cares about.
At the same time, I think I might stop reading if my favourite character died, my interest in the story would wane and it would take a lot to keep my interest.
What about you?
How do you feel when your favourite character gets the chop???