Jane Austen discussion

Here is the thread for discussing Volume 1 of Mansfield Park.

This volume begins at the novel's opening and ends with the return of Sir Thomas Bertram from his properties in Antigua.

Comments? Opinions? Points need clarifying? Let's talk about it all!

This is the first time I am reading Mansfield Park, and I've only watched the 1980s BBC adaptation before I read it for this group read, but my first impression is complete astonishment. I have heard some bad things about this book - that Fanny is boring, that Edmund is not a likeable hero, that both are too preachy etc. But so far I am loving this book and am finding it hard to put down. In all honesty I found some other Austens (though I do love JA) much harder to read!

So far I am particularly struck by the theatre scene. I liked how Austen described the various behaviours and feelings involved in decisions on whether to participate in the play or not, especially Mary Crawford, Edmund and Fanny's feelings and choices. While Fanny was consistent in hating the idea, Mary (if I am not misreading the scene) was so manipulative. I think this may be the first time that we can see her acting somewhat underhandedly, because she twists Edmund's arm into participating. And though Austen reports to us Fanny's thoughts, she leaves us to judge Mary and only reports her speech. Before that scene Mary is not much different from Elizabeth Bennet, really, lively and funny and it's easy to see why Edmund would be taken with her. But Elizabeth Bennet would never have acted like that, I think :)

I hope I'm in the right spot--I'm on audio for this one. I like the response to Edmund's career choice...

That's a good point, Emily-- Austen is brilliant at letting the reader really deduce Mary's true character while making it completely believable that Edmund is a little blinded at first.

That convo is in this volume, Lisa, so you're fine! I like Mary's reaction to Edmund's profession as well-- when I read MP for the first time, that was when I knew they would probably not end up together.

The whole "Lover's Vows" subplot is a big one in this book and I keep trying to think of a modern equivalent to illustrate how inappropriate it would have been and how reasonable Fanny's refusal to participate is. I think a lot of people don't get why Fanny refused and just think she's no fun because of it.

The whole "Lover's Vows" subplot is a big one in this book and I keep trying to think of a modern equivalent to illustrate how inappropriate it would have been . . .

I dunno, Maria and Julia setting up a nightclub and studying pole dancing in the billiard room?

Abigail wrote: "The whole "Lover's Vows" subplot is a big one in this book and I keep trying to think of a modern equivalent to illustrate how inappropriate it would have been . . .

I dunno, Maria and Julia setti..."

HA HA! That's a good one, Abigail!

Yep, Abigail, that's about right!

Rachel wrote: "That's a good point, Emily-- Austen is brilliant at letting the reader really deduce Mary's true character while making it completely believable that Edmund is a little blinded at first.

That con..."

I think, too, that Fanny holds her uncle in such awe that the fact that they're going to turn his study inside-out just smacks of disrespect to her. I think she's right, too, because if I came home after a long absence and found it all re-arranged I'd be a bit ... annoyed!

What I think is so utterly brilliant about that scene is that while they are preparing a real play, they are sort of performing in front of Fanny, so she can see them and their motivations and moral failings as clearly as though she were watching Shakespeare. Everything that she had suspected from the visit in Sotherton (where Mariah walks off with Henry, where Julia and Rushworth are jealous and where Edmund and Mary get cosy) plays out before her, and I think it is brilliant how she disapproves of both plays, in a sense.

I think you're right, Emily. The play is more important than it first seems, because it is being acted out in real life right before Fanny's eyes. It is fascinating to her as a play, but it's also extremely painful for her to watch as reality unfolds.

It was pointed out to me in another group that Lover's Vow's is available free on Kindle so I couldn't resist picking it up... has anyone else read it?

Louise Sparrow wrote: "It was pointed out to me in another group that Lover's Vow's is available free on Kindle so I couldn't resist picking it up... has anyone else read it?"

No, I haven't! Tell us all about it, Louise?

Karlyne wrote: "Louise Sparrow wrote: "It was pointed out to me in another group that Lover's Vow's is available free on Kindle so I couldn't resist picking it up... has anyone else read it?"

No, I haven't! Tell..."

Yes, please let us know about it, Louise! My edition of Mansfield Park has a very brief appendix about the play--basic plot and characters, etc.-- but not the text. It would definitely be interesting to hear about it.

Lovers Vows is an English adaptation of an earlier German play, quite amusing and not at all shocking by today’s standards. It’s not very long and has a humour I can’t convey here, so if you can, I’d recommend reading it.
I’ll put the rest of my comments in a spoiler just in case.

(view spoiler)[

What surprised me as far as Mansfield Park was concerned was that they all wanted to play Agatha over Amelia. Agatha has sinned and has suffered the price for it, whilst Amelia, though rather outspoken, is an innocent young girl who shows nothing but kindness and a wish to love and respect her husband. Edmund’s disapprobation seems very just given the time and place.

Frederick is the illegitimate son of Agatha and the Baron.

The Baron married someone else and moved to live in his wife’s domain, they have one daughter, Amelia. His wife died and he returned to his own castle many years later.

Anhalt is a clergyman and Amelia’s tutor and Count Cassel is her suitor.

The Cottager and Cottager’s wife take in the ailing Agatha while Frederick goes to beg for money.

The Baron has actually repented his past behaviour and wants to find Agatha to make amends, whereas the Count shows himself to be as bad if not worse than the Baron ever was.

The first scene that Maria and Henry rehearse so often is his return from his regiment to find his mother sick and possibly dying penniless in the street. At first he does not recognise her but gives her the last of his money for food out of kindness, they talk and she tells him the truth about his father.

In the scene Edmund and Mary rehearse together he has been told to talk to her about marriage and love as her tutor and with a view to her considering the Count. She thanks him for what he has taught her but ends up asking him to love her, which he confesses he does. I actually found much of what Amelia says appropriate for Fanny, it would have been much harder for her to say the words I think, than Miss Crawford.

The Rhyming Butler is annoying but unlike a Shakespearian play his rhymes are not asides but actual dialogue and the other characters are forever asking him to just speak plainly.

(hide spoiler)]

Any questions? ;)

Louise Sparrow wrote: "Lovers Vows is an English adaptation of an earlier German play, quite amusing and not at all shocking by today’s standards. It’s not very long and has a humour I can’t convey here, so if you can, I..."

Wow, thank you Louise! That's very interesting. I've been wondering about the meaning of the play in the book and your information certainly shines a light on it.

I have found this analysis on here:

"Central to the play is the fact that the baron and Agatha had pre-marital relations which produced a bastard son. Though such topics were well known, and certainly Jane Austen used characters such as Harriet Smith (from Emma) in her work, to have a genteel household perform a play centering on such issues could cause a problem, and with a father such as Sir Thomas, who was a strong advocate for proper decorum, it could certainly cause problems within the family upon his return, when he discovered what had been occurring.

Edmund's objections were that respectable ladies did not involve themselves in the theater. From the time of Shakespeare into our own century, the theater was not considered an appropriate place for a lady to earn her living, but a place for loose women. Another of his objections was to the plot of the play itself and the illicit act at the heart of it. His final objection was specific to Maria playing the role of Agatha. If Maria Bertram were to enact the part of Agatha, she would have to speak of her fiancé's betrayal and abandonment, as well as words such as: "Oh! oh! my son! I was intoxicated by the fervent caresses of a young, inexperienced, capricious man, and did not recover from the delirium till it was too late." If an engaged woman were to talk of the fervent caresses of her fiancé, even while acting a part, it could be considered quite improper."

Wow. Thanks for posting that Louise and Emily.

So am I the only one now thinking there's an ick factor that the flirting Maria and Henry play mother and son?

Fascinating info! You’ve really added new dimensions to the story. Thank you!

Elizabeth wrote: "Wow. Thanks for posting that Louise and Emily.

So am I the only one now thinking there's an ick factor that the flirting Maria and Henry play mother and son?"

Yes!! It is very icky. Also because I think the scenes that they like to rehearse so much involve a lot of handholding etc. which they do with intentions that are very un-mother and son-y!

Thanks for posting about the play, Louise! That is disturbingly icky!

I never thought a lot about what the play itself was about, other than it was not appropriate in Edmund's eyes, because I was busy thinking about poor Sir Thomas' room being pulled about and how the play just gave Maria and Henry license to be together. I hadn't realized that it was a mother/son relationship. Weird! And, from the sounds of it, the whole subject matter and lines were much warmer than I'd figured!

Thanks, Louise, for all of that insight!

You're welcome.

I watched the MP 1980's BBC adaptation again after reading Lover's Vows and realised that it does tell you something of the plot but I'd not really picked up on much beyond 'Delicacy in Italy'.

The line Maria keeps saying in that was 'May a mother not embrace her son?' and then does so in a very unmotherly way. (and I agree it's icky when you think about it.)

And hypocritical, too, but then that's not a surprise.

The Norton Critical edition includes the text of Lover's Vows and also a lot of other texts that are mentioned in the novel. The play was incredibly racy for the Georgian era and not suitable for young ladies. Paula Byrne discusses the topic in The Real Jane Austen

I'm also listening to the BBC full cast audio production and I really enjoy it. It's so nicely done. I can hear the humor more than I can read it though a lot of the nuances are lost to time.

The Bertram sisters need to be grounded by their father for a very long time. I have more sympathy for Fanny this time around.

I'm struck by how Mrs. Norris directs the action of the plot. It's her idea to bring in Fanny and then she's the one who turns Maria and Julia into such snobs. (What kind of governess allowed that?) I like Edmund OK so far. He's a bit stiff and sober but he's a clergyman. He's justified in his feelings for Mary. She's lively and fun and plays the harp while Fanny seems more like a child. The question "Is Fanny out?" is an important one in how the other characters think of her and deal with her. In labeling her "not out" that clears the way for Mary to move in on Edmund.

The slave trade is one unspoken subtext of this novel, and that old bat who torments Fanny is famous as probably the single most evil character Austen ever created.

Shelley
http://dustbowlstory.wordpress.com

Qnpoohbear wrote: "The question "Is Fanny out?" is an important one in how the other characters think of her and deal with her. In labeling her "not out" that clears the way for Mary to move in on Edmund. "

I am glad you brought that bit up - I always thought that part of their conversation interesting. Do you think it may also be representative of Fanny in a more general way? That she is somewhat in between, in an undefined space in the house (between the servants and her cousins), in the family (part of it and yet not part of it) and socially?

I also remember being struck by Tom's anecdote of Miss Anderson (how different she was before and after coming out). Does anyone know of a plausible interpretation or meaning of this part?

I think the question of "is Fanny out" works on two levels: (1) on the literal level--has she officially been introduced to society as an adult, or is she still a schoolroom miss--and (2) on the figurative level you describe so well, Qnpoohbear. When these questions about Fanny arise, it may be that outsiders think the Bertrams overdo the social distinction thing, that they're too concerned to keep Fanny in her place. It may be a subtle criticism of the Bertram household, and how self-importance and laziness keep Fanny in an invidious position.

Qnpoohbear wrote: "The question "Is Fanny out?" is an important one in how the other characters think of her and deal with her. In labeling her "not out" that clears the way for Mary to move in on Edmund."

Good insight! I hadn't thought of it that way before.

Qnpoohbear wrote: "The Norton Critical edition includes the text of Lover's Vows and also a lot of other texts that are mentioned in the novel. The play was incredibly racy for the Georgian era and not suitable for y..."

"grounded", yes, Qnpoohbear! That's exactly what the Bertram sisters were afraid of - and for good reason!

Emily wrote: " Do you think it may also be representative of Fanny in a more general way? That she is somewhat in between, in an undefined space in the house (between the servants and her cousins), in the family (part of it and yet not part of it) and socially? "

Abigail wrote:" think the question of "is Fanny out" works on two levels: (1) on the literal level--has she officially been introduced to society as an adult, or is she still a schoolroom miss--and (2) on the figurative level you describe so well, Qnpoohbear. When these questions about Fanny arise, it may be that outsiders think the Bertrams overdo the social distinction thing, that they're too concerned to keep Fanny in her place. It may be a subtle criticism of the Bertram household, and how self-importance and laziness keep Fanny in an invidious position."

I think you are both right. Fanny is sort of in the same position as a governess. She's not one of the family fully and she's not a servant. They treat her like that and justify it by using her early ignorance and her retiring nature as excuses for her position. I think Austen is definitely criticizing. Her own family never emphasized social position like that. She was very close to Edward's childrens governess and their nanny was very loved as well. Edward was sort of in Fanny's position wasn't he? He was adopted by wealthy relatives so he was a part of that society but he wasn't OF it so maybe he felt a bit like Fanny - not quite fitting in.