Catholic Thought discussion

I'm still in the beginning of the chapter. I find I can't just "power through" the pages if I want to get anything out of them.

Kerstin wrote: "I'm still in the beginning of the chapter. I find I can't just "power through" the pages if I want to get anything out of them."

I know what you mean. Chapter 3 is quite enjoyable to me. I don't seem to have any criticism. You know, there are multiple authors all absorbed under Thomas à Kempis. We have no indication who wrote what. I wonder if a different author wrote a different chapter. The three chapters so far seem to be different from each other. I don't know if it's because the focus is different or if the author's perspectives are different.

Agreed. One of the things I really like about this section, though, is the number of beautiful prayers that follow the writer's reflections.

I just realized that besides being a how-to manual on following Jesus, an ambitious project if ever there was one, Thomas a Kempis has given us a deep exploration of the Beatitudes, every one of them. Not necessarily in order following St. Matthew's gospel, but they are all embedded in various chapters, all eight, what it is and how to be poor in spirit, meek, pure of heart, etc. He models the blessed state that follows the various attitudes necessary for blessedness contained in the Sermon on the Mount. This is not a work to be read once, but over and over, particularly whenever we tend to lose sight of our need to follow Jesus all day, every day (impossible for me without this kind of spiritual nudge.)

And then I saw Manny's wonderful analysis. Love this.

Madeleine wrote: "And then I saw Manny's wonderful analysis. Love this."

Oh thank you.

So I’ve been critical, as you’ve seen my comments, calling à Kempis “semi-gnostic.” If he values the spirit over the corporeal so much, why isn’t he fully gnostic? Let’s look carefully at why he considers the spiritual so much more important. In Book Three, chapter 35, he says through the Voice of Christ:

If you look for rest in this life, how will you attain to everlasting rest? Dispose yourself, then, not for much rest but for great patience. Seek true peace, not on earth but in heaven; not in men or in other creatures but in God alone. For love of God you should undergo all things cheerfully, all labors and sorrows, temptations and trials, anxieties, weaknesses, necessities, injuries, slanders, rebukes, humiliations, confusions, corrections, and contempt. For these are helps to virtue. These are the trials of Christ's recruit. These form the heavenly crown. For a little brief labor I will give an everlasting crown, and for passing confusion, glory that is eternal....

The key sentence I think there is “For these are helps to virtue.” Later in chapter 54 of that book, he creates a dichotomy between “nature,” which stands of the corporeal, and “grace,” which stands for the spiritual. I’m not going to quote it, but it’s quite a list of contrasts between nature and grace. He concludes that rhetorical tour de force with this:

The more, then, nature is held in check and conquered, the more grace is given. Every day the interior man is reformed by new visitations according to the image of God....

So then the mortifications of the body he advocates are a process of personal reform to build virtue. How is this different than Gnosticism? In Gnosticism the body is just evil. In à Kempis the body is a temptation from which you can succumb to sin. There is a subtle distinction. If you want to ensure yourself of purity, if you want to ensure virtue, radically eliminate the temptations. Actually even more than elimination. Train your body through asceticism and excoriations to not find pleasure in the corporeal. It’s not that the corporeal is evil for à Kempis, though his language sometimes slips to sound that way, but something to be feared. It’s a view of Christianity that suggests you need to suffer in order to love, and to be ready for when real suffering comes your way you induce suffering to yourself to build strength.

In the fifty-fifth chapter, he brings this to full expression:

Thus nature itself, which You created good and right, is considered a symbol of vice and the weakness of corrupted nature, because when left to itself it tends toward evil and to baser things. The little strength remaining in it is like a spark hidden in ashes. That strength is natural reason which, surrounded by thick darkness, still has the power of judging good and evil, of seeing the difference between true and false, though it is not able to fulfill all that it approves and does not enjoy the full light of truth or soundness of affection.

It is not that nature is evil but that it tends to evil if left unchecked.

In Book Three à Kempis provides the objective of all this discipline. In chapter 49 he tells us through the voice of Christ, “You must put on the new man. You must be changed into another man.” He builds on that in chapter 53, again through the voice of Christ:

If you completely conquer yourself, you will more easily subdue all other things. The perfect victory is to triumph over self. For he who holds himself in such subjection that sensuality obeys reason and reason obeys Me in all matters, is truly his own conqueror and master of the world.

And then augments this point further in chapter 56, again in the voice of Christ:

My child, the more you depart from yourself, the more you will be able to enter into Me. As the giving up of exterior things brings interior peace, so the forsaking of self unites you to God. I will have you learn perfect surrender to My will, without contradiction or complaint.

The subjugation of oneself for the self of Christ is the spiritual objective of every Christian. à Kempis is right on target with this. We get this from St. Paul in Galatians, “It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me” (Gal 2:20). I think it’s Fulton Sheen who phrases it as every Christian needs a heart transplant, replacing one’s heart with that of Christ’s. St. Catherine of Siena actually has a mystical experience where her heart is exchanged with Christ’s heart.

What’s in question, then, is how one arrives at this objective. The à Kempis way is strict asceticism and withdrawal from the world. However, St. Paul wasn’t a recluse. While Christ had his 40 days in the desert, he also had the wedding feast at Cana, Passover dinners, and engaged large crowds for healing and feeding. The history of Christian spirituality is varied on how to achieve this heart replacement. The desert fathers start this asceticism and reclusion. The monastics modify it by segregating themselves away from the heart of the world but certainly more engaged than the desert hermits. In the twelfth century you start getting the itinerant orders, the Franciscans, the Dominicans, the Carmelites (to a lesser degree), and then later followed by the Jesuits who engage society. And from the sixteenth century on to ours we get what I’ll call the charitable orders, the Vincentians, the Sisters of Charity, the Little Sisters of the Poor, the orders who embrace society to feed, educate, and cure the needy. One can say this culminates in Mother Teresa’s brand of spirituality. So then one can see the trajectory of Christian spirituality as going from the desert to the multitude, just as in the course of Christ’s journey.

The à Kempis way is quite narrow, and even anachronistic for its own time. However, for those that are attracted to this brand of spirituality, the book is a perfect guide. Most of us, mix and match our forms of spirituality, and so we still can get many benefits from his advice.

Very well said, Manny. We must not forget that one of the fruits of the Spirit is joy. The martyrs of the early Church met death, joyfully, even singing! Even small things can bring us joy, no matter how awful or painful life can be. A few years ago the wife of one of our deacons passed away, and her funeral was attended by a large group of clergy, including the bishop. She was one of those people who remained cheerful through both bouts of cancer--the second one fatal--and numerous other painful illnesses. When you talked to her, she made you feel the radiance of her love. Her husband gave a tearful eulogy and addressed her chronic pain, saying she always offered it up for people who were worse off than she was. What an example she set.
Yesterday our part of Texas barely missed the tornadoes, after an hour of dark skies and sirens blaring and lots of rain. This morning was thankfulness mixed with prayers for those dealing with the worst of it. May God bring them peace and joy.

Manny, I'd like to thank you for the many insightful analyses you've presented on this book. I confess I ran out of steam midway through the book, and skipped chunks of text because the narrative was beginning to get redundant (to me).

Yet I also kept highlighting passages that spoke to me, and I made notes like "Amen" and "so true" for lines such as "My Son, thou art never secure in this life, but thy spiritual armour will always be needful for thee as long as thou livest.” (Kindle location 2314) and "I came down from heaven for thy salvation; I took upon Me thy miseries not of necessity, but drawn by love that thou mightest learn patience and mightest bear temporal miseries without murmuring." (Kindle location 1896)

So, despite my occasional impatience and judgment (behaviors the book strongly counsels against!), I know I'll return to Imitation of Christ and read parts of it again. There are many truths among the semi-Gnostic leanings (and that semi-Gnosticism irritated me). Some are simple truths but they never get old and always bear repeating, such as "My words are spirit, and they are life." (Kindle location 1511).

Gerri wrote: "Manny, I'd like to thank you for the many insightful analyses you've presented on this book. I confess I ran out of steam midway through the book, and skipped chunks of text because the narrative w..."

Thank you so much Gerri. I do appreciate someone finding my thoughts worthwhile. I'm going to have one more major comment as soon as I get a chance to write it. You may find this one interesting too, since I think I remember you're a writer. I was fascinated by the rhetorical use of dialogue between the disciple and the voice of Christ. It's actually quite interesting and not what I would have expected.

Madeleine wrote: "Very well said, Manny. We must not forget that one of the fruits of the Spirit is joy. The martyrs of the early Church met death, joyfully, even singing! Even small things can bring us joy, no matt..."

Oh I forgot to reply to you Madeleine. My prayers for those in the path of that tornado, especially those killed.

Our part of Texas had more numerous tornadoes, I think, but Arkansas seems to be hardest hit, and may be facing still more flooding. Prayers needed for all afflicted. We're still in the season for tornadoes and hurricanes.

Here is an article from 28 May I think fits nicely into this discussion from Word On Fire:
https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/...

Kerstin wrote: "Here is an article from 28 May I think fits nicely into this discussion from Word On Fire:
https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/..."

That is an excellent article Kerstin and along the lines I've been preaching here. I think I would dispute this, though:

"The vast majority of spiritual literature in the Catholic tradition was written by those dedicated to some version of this flight..."

While there is definitely a lot of literature along those lines, I would not agree that it's the "vast majority." Thomas Aquinas is very engaged with the world and my survey of the Church Fathers showed them to be the same.

But yes, we need more literature for those engaged in the world, not reclusive from the world.

Kerstin wrote: "Here is an article from 28 May I think fits nicely into this discussion from Word On Fire:
https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/..."

This also fits in with today's Gospel from John 17. "\

"They (meaning his disciples, and by extension, us) do not belong to the world/ Any more than I belong to the world.
I do not ask that you take them out of the world
but that you keep them from the Evil One."

Madeleine wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Here is an article from 28 May I think fits nicely into this discussion from Word On Fire:
https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/..."

This also fits in with today's Gospel from John..."

Nice catch Madeleine!

Manny wrote: "But yes, we need more literature for those engaged in the world, not reclusive from the world."

It's a classic both/and situation.

I wonder if the tides are turning. When you think of who produced the bulk of spiritual literature over the centuries, it was the religious. They had the time to do so and still provide for their living. Today this has shifted. Who are the prominent people producing works concerning the faith and Church? There are quite a number of lay people who can make a living at it.

That is a good observation.

Kerstin wrote: Who are the prominent people producing works concerning the faith and Church? There are quite a number of lay people who can make a living at it.

I've been following Taylor Marshall, after reading and sharing his trilogy on St. George with my grandson, and learning that he lives and works in our own DFW area of Texas, following his podcasts and writings, and Matthew Kelly, both of whom are focused on bringing Catholics back to the heart of our faith and making us aware of how our shepherds and leaders throughout the ages have been led astray, taking the faithful with them, and then being brought back by powerful saints and mystics like Catherine of Siena, Joan of Arc, St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, both St. Teresas, and the various apparitions of Mary. And Bishop Barron making us mindful of how the beauty and truth of the Church are integral to her holiness. And how we need those extreme voices to pull us back to our center in the Trinity and into an awareness of our need for us to say, "Here I am, Lord." We need the extremes but also we the main body of the faithful, we who are not called to be mystics or great voices, need the practical suggestions from our contemporary apologists of how to sanctify our own mundane lives beyond just working in our parish ministries and spiritual reading.

And as I'm plodding through these final chapters of the Imitation, I'm wondering where Thomas a Kempis fits in. At times it seems he is indeed overly scrupulous, too focused on the angelic and ignoring our responsibility--especially we whose vocation is to work in this world, marry and raise families or simply be in the world, accept our obligations of stewardship, trying to stay in the light--to care for the physical and worldly demands of our station. Is a complete surrender to God's will and presence possible? I believe it is, but I struggle with not only the distractions of those responsibilities, but with, as Thomas a Kempis puts it, "vain imaginations and violent temptations." We can't reasonably replace all those with prayer. But the Imitation gives us a reference point, I think.

Madeleine, I have to say that it never feels that a Kempis is speaking to me. Perhaps it's me but it just doesn't seem relevant to my life and engagement with God.

Thank you, Manny, for that. I felt that with Catherine of Siena as well. But she was able to persuade an erring pope, despite spending a life sequestered in a communion with Jesus that makes most of us uncomfortable. The mystics are, I know, important messengers, even doctrinal messengers, but their messages are not so much for us as they are for the sanctification and progress of the Church itself, possibly? Still there is value for us in the worldly vocations in our study of them, I'm just not sure what.

Jesus said to love one another as I have loved you. It is so simple and yet profound. Most of us don't have a religious vocation, so we live this command as best as we can. The insights of the saints can illuminate further what the command means, but in the end we have to live it the way it is possible for us. I don't see it as an either/or proposition but a both/and. For me, I look at it as having a leisurely Sunday dinner for the family or even a reunion at our house, to give an example. Old-fashioned hospitality will always bring smiles all around and strengthen family bonds. Use real dishes, a table cloth, etc. Simple pleasures done lovingly have a value all their own.

Kerstin, Yes! A both/and. I remember a snatch of a prayer--wish I could remember the rest: "Although I must have Martha's hands, I have a Mary mind...". Hospitality is a multidimensional virtue. I picture heaven for us Martha/ Marys as like an eternal series of family reunions, without the tensions and conflicts, only love, peace, and prayers and praise. "Many mansions" to visit and entertain in, together with the Holy Family.