Victorians! discussion

In chapter VII, we meet the new employers of Agnes – the Murray family. Agnes gives a pretty good description on the mother, father and their four children (two girls and two boys) and generally on the household. What do you think of this new family? Are they different from the Bloomfield family? If so, how do they differ?

Agnes is still having trouble of exercising authority. She was confident before that since Murray children are older that she will be better able to teach them. However, it seems she is in for another disappointment. The Murray children too are in Agnes’s opinion rude and unmanageable. The treatment towards Agnes by the family make even the servants take liberties with her. In this light, how do you view Agnes’s capacity as a governess? Is it her naivety or weakness that put her in this precarious position or is it her employer’s fault (especially the mother’s) in interfering with her freedom to do her job properly?

At this point, how do you feel about Agnes? Do you sympathize with her, feel pity for her or are frustrated by her?

Chapters VIII, IX and X describe the personalities of the two Miss Murrays – Rosalie and Matilda. They seem to be having so opposing characters. Rosalie is pretty and ladylike, but she is also haughty and proud and a coquette. Matilda is on the other hand a tomboy. Her interests, her manner and conduct are similar to that of a man. How do you feel about these two young women?

We are introduced to new characters, including the rector, Mr. Hatfield and curator, Mr. Weston in Chapter X and XI. There is a detailed narration on their manner and conduct. They seem very different from each other. Agnes dislikes Mr. Hatfield’s manner and feels his conduct unsuitable for a clergyman. Do you agree?

On the other hand she seems to like Mr. Weston. Through information from the parishioners, Agnes learns many acts of kindness by Mr. Weston and thereby he slowly grows in her esteem. Agnes finds in Mr. Weston a superior being who she can look up to, and who can save her from any moral degradation she may suffer from her association with the two young Miss Murrays. What are your thoughts on this respect?

Unfortunately for Agnes, the Murray family has many things in common with the Bloomfields despite their difference in status. The children again are expected to learn without effort or the pain of hard work and Agnes is expected always to be patient and kind. Again the parents don’t treat her with respect but coddle their children. Of course the result is the same with the children are running the show and Agnes has to decide how much she will put up with to keep her job. I’m still not sure if someone else with a different personality could have fared better than Agnes in these circumstances. It does seem that over time her relationship with Rosalie does change, as she has noted. Agnes has no qualms disputing Rosalie’s assertion that anything could be as interesting or important as her upcoming ball and that Agnes should forego everything concerning her family in order to attend to Rosalie.
Most interesting are the last two paragraphs in Chapter 7 which seem not to be written in the first person, but from the point of view of Rosalie and Matilda through a narrator. They view Agnes in a mostly positive light commenting on her truthfulness in praise and how they liked having her in good spirits as she was most agreeable and talkative then. They understood the importance of religion to her and her sense of right and wrong, although they might not share it. I’ve stayed away from critical analysis of the book till I’ve finished so I have no idea if these paragraphs have been commented on by critics.
Mr. Weston comes as a bright light. First as a true man of religion which Rector Hatfield is not as evidenced by his treatment of Nancy Brown. Weston is a good speaker and also truly concerned with his poor parishioners as Hatfield hasn’t been. He is just concerned with his wealthy and influential parishioners- especially the Murrays evidently.
When Agnes meets Mr. Weston at Nancy’s cottage, there are clues about her feelings which go beyond her respect for him. She moves away from him when he is offered a seat. Is she subconsciously afraid to be physically close to him because of her attraction? This is an instance where the reader must decipher meaning from Agnes’s action, not her words. Agnes tells us that she is too happy with her experience at Nancy’s cottage to be disturbed by Matilda’s ranting about Agnes having missed tea. Such happiness again hints at feelings beyond mere respect.

Linda wrote: "Unfortunately for Agnes, the Murray family has many things in common with the Bloomfields despite their difference in status. The children again are expected to learn without effort or the pain of hard work and Agnes is expected always to be patient and kind. Again the parents don’t treat her with respect but coddle their children. Of course the result is the same with the children are running the show and Agnes has to decide how much she will put up with to keep her job. I’m still not sure if someone else with a different personality could have fared better than Agnes in these circumstances...."



You have raised a good point here, Linda. It is difficult to discern for certain whether a different personality than Agnes would have fared better. However being constantly overruled by her charges does somewhat speak for her personality.

Linda wrote: "When Agnes meets Mr. Weston at Nancy’s cottage, there are clues about her feelings which go beyond her respect for him. She moves away from him when he is offered a seat. Is she subconsciously afraid to be physically close to him because of her attraction? This is an instance where the reader must decipher meaning from Agnes’s action, not her words. Agnes tells us that she is too happy with her experience at Nancy’s cottage to be disturbed by Matilda’s ranting about Agnes having missed tea. Such happiness again hints at feelings beyond mere respect..."


I agree with you completely, Linda. Agnes does have feelings for Mr. Weston. Perhaps she hasn't realized that yet, but her actions speak amply for her.

Piyangie wrote: "The Murray children too are in Agnes’s opinion rude and unmanageable. The treatment towards Agnes by the family make even the servants take liberties with her. In this light, how do you view Agnes’s capacity as a governess? .."

Yet again, in a completely different situation, Agnes rages about the failings of those around her. None of her distress is her own fault. Matilda is "barbarously ignorant, indocile, careless and irrational;" "reckless, headstrong, violent, and unamenable to reason." John is "boisterous, unruly, unprincipled, untaught, unteachable". Charles is a "pettish, cowardly, capricious, selfish" liar. Rosalie is the best of a bad bunch, but fails because she considers Agnes a servant. I grew more and more impatient with Agnes' judgemental arrogance. How impossible it is for a teacher to be effective when they judge their students in this negative way. No Pollyanna she.

Linda wrote: "Most interesting are the last two paragraphs in Chapter 7 which seem not to be written in the first person, but from the point of view of Rosalie and Matilda through a narrator. They view Agnes in a mostly positive light commenting on her truthfulness in praise and how they liked having her in good spirits as she was most agreeable and talkative then. ..."

I put a question mark by these paragraphs, as I wasn't sure who was speaking. Is this Agnes imagining what the girls would say? Or did they respect her much more than she respected them?

Ginny wrote: "I put a question mark by these paragraphs, as I wasn't sure who was speaking. Is this Agnes imagining what the girls would say? Or did they respect her much more than she respected them? ..."

As I understood it was no imagination but the reality. Rosalie and Matilda did respect her in their own way. I suppose Agnes had issues with them because morally they were not to Agnes's expected standard.

Another Edmund Dulac illustration. Chapter 12.



Another cat story built in. "Good people are kind to animals" could be a theme.

It is beautiful illustration of Agnes and Mr.Weston meeting when he brings Nancy Brown's lost cat. Thanks so much for sharing, Ginny.

Ginny wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "The Murray children too are in Agnes’s opinion rude and unmanageable. The treatment towards Agnes by the family make even the servants take liberties with her. In this light, how d..."

I have been thinking that perhaps Anne Bronte painted all these children as such amoral, uncaring, selfish, sometimes vicious and evil characters in a sensationalist manner rather than strictly realistic. In so doing, she was able to create a heightened sense of drama, a depiction of Agnes as a victim which would have been hard if not impossible to do otherwise and thereby achieving her objective in presenting Agnes’s life as governess as one of hardship, of being demeaned and disrespected, as less than an equal human being. Any thoughts?

Ginny wrote: "I grew more and more impatient with Agnes' judgemental arrogance. How impossible it is for a teacher to be effective when they judge their students in this negative way. No Pollyanna she...."

Since the story is being told by Agnes, it is not possible for us to know with complete certainty that she is presenting a reasonable view of her situation. If she is telling the truth about the parents letting the kids know that Agnes has no real authority and can do nothing to discipline them for any misbehavior, then I don't find it difficult to believe her account of their actions. Ask any substitute teacher whether they have trouble keeping kids in line while the regular teacher is away. Many kids behave no matter who is in charge, but spoiled kids who are accustomed to getting their own way would not hesitate to dismiss any attempt by Agnes to control them and make them do things they didn't want to do if they knew there would be no repercussions for them.

I think one of the difficulties governesses faced was that they were considered socially inferior by their employers' children (even though this wasn't strictly so, by birth) but they were expected to basically form the characters of these kids. I can see this creating an uphill battle for the governess.

You have raised a very important point here, Cindy. If the children know that their governess has no power to exercise authority, and that they can get away from being punished no matter what they do, it is likely that they will behave as the spoils wretches as Bloomfield and Murray children. If the parents really want to bring out their children well, they have to let the governess exercise a free hand over the children. This didn't happen in both households, so Agnes suffers tremendously.

But I still couldn't shake off my feeling that Agnes was too soft a character for a governess. :)

Linda wrote: "Ginny wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "The Murray children too are in Agnes’s opinion rude and unmanageable. The treatment towards Agnes by the family make even the servants take liberties with her. In thi..."

This is an interesting observation, Linda. Anne was a governess herself and she had very bitter experience in that situation. So in her determination to bring out to the public the difficulties the position of the governess hold, she may have dramatized it a bit.

But since Anne too had same problems as Agnes in her real life, I tend to think she was really met by some unruly children, who the parents have done nothing to discipline. And I also think that Anne must have been a soft natured character as Agnes, which made it impossible for her to carry out her duties in such households, especially at the absence of help from the parents' quarter.

First, thanks Ginny for the amazing illustrations!

I wonderd too if Agnes wasn´t too weak or perhaps too strict in her moral principles to work as a governess. Of course we will never know how things really happened, as the story is told by Agnes herself, and obviously expresses Anne´s experiences too. She also has no sense for the development of children or young adults, and cruelty to animals seems to her the worst of faults.

I was a bit confused with the religious discussions in the middle of this part.

Liked the coming of a love story which made the book a bit more interesting, and wonder if it will continue in the following chapters. I remember that Shirley also keeps distance when she´s falling in love.