Victorians! discussion

Discuss these chapters here

I did enjoy this novel and the unexpected change of tone in the second half where Lucilla has got old, has been left unmarried, and the unexpected death of her father leaves her without money.

Her union with the cousin seemed tacked on I thought with a kind of knowingness that Mrs Oliphant knew she was just giving the expected happy ending rather than dealing with the heroine's situation in a more realistic manner.

There are broken dreams for other characters though, which I found unusual in a novel with such a light and playful tone.

It is interesting to see how after her father's death there is a marked increase (or would that be a clear beginning) of people who now suggest/tell L. what to do and think.

The election does create the situation where there must be a loser, and the return of Tom makes Ashburton the political winner the loser in the quest for L's heart.

I agree that there are some sober moments in this novel that has, as you say, a "playful tone." The 11th hour return of Tom, the marriage and their heading off to reset and save yet another village was really over the top for me. At least I know now how to pronounce Marjoribanks correctly!

Peter wrote: "I agree that there are some sober moments in this novel that has, as you say, a "playful tone." The 11th hour return of Tom, the marriage and their heading off to reset and save yet another village was really over the top for me. At least I know now how to pronounce Marjoribanks correctly! ."

It was a strange denouement in some ways. I wondered if the novel might continue in a more somber direction after the father's death. I thought through Lucilla's tears and the continual returning to the memory of her father's last touch, the reader was being allowed to see genuine emotion in her for the first time.

I also found it of interest that it is the male beau that has aged badly, rather than Lucilla who is still described as a good looking woman.

The whole political situation displayed clearer than earlier in the novel how wasted Lucilla's intellect is because she's a woman. She can only watch while two men, neither of whom are equal to her, do their best to collect votes.

Clari wrote: "Peter wrote: "I agree that there are some sober moments in this novel that has, as you say, a "playful tone." The 11th hour return of Tom, the marriage and their heading off to reset and save yet a..."

It seems the novel gives the reader a look at how the natural talents and skills of a woman are often wasted within the rules and decorum of 19C society. Perhaps Oliphant's method of delivery via wit and ever-so-subtle satire is the only way she could express herself with any degree of certainty that she could reach, and be enjoyed, by a broad-based reading public.

It would be interesting to find out if her reading public was mainly women. My guess is yes. Men would see her work as fluff and amusement for their wives.

Peter wrote: "It would be interesting to find out if her reading public was mainly women. My guess is yes. Men would see her work as fluff and amusement for their wives. .."

weren't novels often seen as lightweight material for less intelligent souls, ie women and the (lower) middle classes?

Clari wrote: "Peter wrote: "It would be interesting to find out if her reading public was mainly women. My guess is yes. Men would see her work as fluff and amusement for their wives. .."

weren't novels often s..."

The serialized method of publishing many 19C novels certainly was a methodology for reaching a larger reading public and the availability of such "portable" material meant these novel parts often became well-travelled among the population. Also, the serial parts of the novel were often read by a literate person to small groups of people who were illiterate. Too often we forget that the literacy rate in the 19c was not nearly as high as it is today. Indeed, it is scary to realize how high the illiteracy rate today is, even in first world countries.

The gentleman's library of fancy, multiple matching volumes of novels often looked impressive, but many of those books were meant for show, not reading. Do you recall that wonderful scene in The Great Gatsby where Owl Eyes is in the library? He muses aloud about the grandeur of the library ... and the fact that the books have never been read.

Who, in terms of gender, social and economic class was reading the 19c novel (or its "parts") is a very interesting study. Study and documentation of who was using the lending libraries gives some documented insight, but even then the question of who else might have read the lent book comes into play.

For us, let's just say the ones who did read the books were the lucky ones.

Peter wrote: "Who, in terms of gender, social and economic class was reading the 19c novel (or its "parts") is a very interesting study. Study and documentation of who was using the lending libraries gives some documented insight, but even then the question of who else might have read the lent book comes into play."

I always appreciate the scenes in the novels of this period amusing where women are chastised for wasting their time reading novels, it all gets slightly metaphysical :)
And then it has the extra layers of the whole discussion of the male being the author and female writers hiding behind pseudonyms to be taken seriously.
I'm not sure if society has moved on yet, but I recall a study a few years ago that males will still mainly only read male authors whereas women will read both, which obviously skews the whole commercial reading to preferring men.

In terms of discussing the novel I think the gender issues are the most interesting part. Although i feel I have warmed more to the world than you have, Peter, and would certainly read more, even if it would not rate, thus far, amongst my favourite Victorian reads.

Clari and Peter, thank you for your lively discussions. I've enjoy your comments as much as I've enjoyed the book.

Diane wrote: "Clari and Peter, thank you for your lively discussions. I've enjoy your comments as much as I've enjoyed the book."

Thank you, Diane, it's such a wonderful thing to be able to share and discuss books.
When I get space in my schedule I hope to come back to more of Mrs Oliphant's work. It felt like there was a darker novel underneath the light surface and I'm interested whether she was generally a comic writer or if the problems of Victorian life that we see in other novelists are explored in more detail as is hinted in the sombre section before the happy ending.

Diane wrote: "Clari and Peter, thank you for your lively discussions. I've enjoy your comments as much as I've enjoyed the book."

And I thank you too, Diane. It was an interesting book. Unlike Clari I don't see myself reading Mrs. Oliphant again but the discussions were great and certainly opened my eyes to an author I had never read before.

Goodreads is a great way to discuss books.

I was shocked by Dr M's sudden death. We are given no real idea of the cause, although it seems he had some forewarning of it. All the money lost too, another sudden twist in the story.

I think Lucilla dealt very well with the situation in her usual practical way. As Peter said, once Lucilla lost her position in society suddenly everyone had an opinion and advice to offer on what she should do ... even Rose Lake!

Once scene I particularly liked was when Lucilla spoke to Nancy, who was dreading being dismissed. The way she handled it and Nancy's reaction brought a tear to my eye.

I liked the ending, although as I've already mentioned I'm a sucker for a happy-ever-after finish. I can image Lucilla taking on the new challenge and making a tremendous success of it. Quite a 'light' novel, once you got into the author's writing style, but to me that is not a bad thing. It certainly kept my interest to the end.

This is a novel (and author) I'd never heard of before. Thanks to the group for introducing me to it and sharing the read. This is why I love being a part of Goodreads :)

Helen_in_the_uk wrote: "I was shocked by Dr M's sudden death. We are given no real idea of the cause, although it seems he had some forewarning of it. All the money lost too, another sudden twist in the story."
I liked the ending also. Tom seemed to be a bit of a scatter brain so it should work out well with Lucilla taking charge. He has admired her for many years and her organizational skills had to be a good part of that.

Helen_in_the_uk wrote: "I was shocked by Dr M's sudden death. We are given no real idea of the cause, although it seems he had some forewarning of it. All the money lost too, another sudden twist in the story.

I think ..."

Were you happy with Tom as a match for Lucilla? i think she'll like managing him, but I never got really any sense of romance or love on her side beyond familial.

Helen_in_the_uk wrote: "I was shocked by Dr M's sudden death. We are given no real idea of the cause, although it seems he had some forewarning of it. All the money lost too, another sudden twist in the story.

I think ..."

Helen/Clari

I echo completely your comments about Goodreads. There have been many books I would not have read without the various book clubs available, and certainly never had the pleasure of discussing books with virtual friends from around the world as I now can.

Clari wrote: "were you happy with Tom as a match for Lucilla? i think she'll like managing him, but I never got really any sense of romance or love on her side beyond familial..."

I think Lucilla's reaction when she sensed that Tom was arriving was the most pronounced she had shown for any suitor - her feelings were 'engaged'! His proposal sends her into a "softened state" and she thinks to herself "fate and honest love had been waiting all the time till their moment came; and now it was not even necessary to say anything about it. The fact was so clear that it did not require stating. It was to be Tom after all."

I think Lucilla does love Tom, but she wasn't consciously aware of her own feelings until he returns. I don't feel we really know enough of Tom's character to know if they are a good match. However, as they love each other and as long as Tom allows Lucilla to manage him, I think they will do well.

I agree. Only considering the earlier circumstance in the book, I think Tom will let Lucilla do the organizing and willspend time on the farm happily.

Bharathi wrote: "I agree. Only considering the earlier circumstance in the book, I think Tom will let Lucilla do the organizing and willspend time on the farm happily."

My thoughts exactly. They balance each other nicely.

I finished, and only 2 days behind schedule! I quite enjoyed the divine Miss M--definitely a different sort of heroine than the usual Victorian shrinking/fainting violet. In fact, I was thinking that she couldn't have been created by a male Victorian author. There are only two other heroines who seem to be cut from the same bolt and that is Flora Poste (Cold Comfort Farm, which was mentioned early in these discussions) and Elle Woods (Legally Blonde)--Lucilla is a wonderful combination of self-confidence and genuine self-effacement (naivete) that is just about unique.

I was surprised by Dr. M's demise, but not by Lucilla's realization that she loved Tom because he was hopelessly in love, passionately in love, with her! I liked her solution to their problem of what to do and where to live, and I have no doubt that she ended up as a de facto member of Parliament (although Tom would have to be the front man).

I've been reading a bit about Oliphant--interesting woman and interesting, difficult life.

Jane wrote: "There are only two other heroines who seem to be cut from the same bolt and that is Flora Poste (Cold Comfort Farm, which was mentioned early in these discussions) and Elle Woods (Legally Blonde)-- ..."

I love your comparison between Miss M and Elle Woods - I can see your point!

Where did you find the background about Oliphant? Was it an online source and you could share?

Jane wrote: "I finished, and only 2 days behind schedule! I quite enjoyed the divine Miss M--definitely a different sort of heroine than the usual Victorian shrinking/fainting violet. In fact, I was thinking ..."
I Love your take on Lucilla and found it especially good since I just finished the pre-Victorian The Mysteries of Udolpho, where the heroine? fainted at every hint of danger. And I agree totally with Helen_in_the_uk about your Elle and Flora comparisons. All are such upbeat self-confident women.

Helen_in_the_uk wrote: "Jane wrote: "There are only two other heroines who seem to be cut from the same bolt and that is Flora Poste (Cold Comfort Farm, which was mentioned early in these discussions) and Elle Woods (Lega..."

I read the Penguin Classics edition and there was some good info on Oliphant in the introduction (which I read AFTER I finished the book!), and the Victorian Web has good info on her: http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/o...

Also, good info on Carlingford: http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/o...