Space Opera Fans discussion

Hello all... I recently came across the following article in the Guardian (UK newspaper). The gist seems to be that space opera may be the next big thing in sci-fi. The comments are quite entertaining!
=> http://www.theguardian.com/books/book...

Great article. But what happened to the comments? There is only one tame one now. Hmmm ... it mentions a book (hops on over to add it to one of our Listopias)


Ancillary Justice

So yea! The Guardian says Space Opera is cool again!

This article makes me want to punch myself in the face over and over again.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Ancillary Justice has very average sales even with the giant pile of awards being dumped all over it. Award Winning != popular. All but one bookstore near me doesn't even have a copy of it.

Space Opera isn't really dead or anything, I mean look at Mass Effect, Ender's Game, Starwars, huge amounts of anime, and just look at those sale numbers maybe it's a bit weaker at pulling things over to books.

But worse then that the Baen bashing, and just straight up lying about what Toni said, real classy.

Bonus points for him apparently thinking the Polseen War series is about fighting Muslims or something because post 9-11 when it started before 9/11 and is pretty clearly based of Genghis Khan not Muslims.

Also the article that Tori just wrote before this that he was basing that opinion off of was talking in depth about how cool it was what Eric Flint did. Yeah that Eric Flint the one who is a communist and is/was very active in politics. Then after bashing Baen as speaking to right wing readership he then goes on to praise Ancillary Justice for it's Feminist agenda.

I havn't read the comments but I imagine many of them to be froth-fully mad and I can't even blame them, because I'm right next to them seething.

PS:What the heck at Science Fiction is not a genre?

@Aaron - unfortunately Award Winning doesn't necessarily mean best selling. It means a bunch of people who love a genre got together, read the book, and decided it was worthy of recognition. The problem with the Hugo Awards is that the people who decide who wins have become massively inbred thought-wise, so an award from them might or might not have anything to do with what an average, book-buying person who has to decide between television, video games, the internet and reading a book might actually read. I shall pass no opinion on Ancillary Justice as to whether or not that might be the case as I haven't read it yet. It sure sounds intriguing.

As for the other stuff? All I can say is my own epic fantasy/space opera book series has drawn a huge legion of tea party following fans. I won't comment on the other stuff because I try to stay non-political unless somebody steps on my toes.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Aaron. Just because something's won a boat load of awards, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's any good.

But having said that, I did enjoy reading "Ancillary Justice".

The Hugo Awards have become like those 'art film' reviews you see in the newspaper, the ones who tell you some movie is a 5-star movie, and then when you get there it's a real snoozer?

[*wasn't disagreeing with Aaron, BTW - he asked several questions, one of which was 'how can it be award-winning if it's not a best seller'*]

I completely understand that, it's just the article is like SPACE OPERA IS BACK but points at a book with meh sales. Ancillary Justice did a few things right, I don't regret reading it, but I felt it had a good bit more potential then it delivered.

I went to buy Ancillary Justice today at the bookshop near where I work, which just happens to be the big Waterstones by Trafalgar Square, London. They didn't have it. Not impressed.

I got it from my local library.

And bookstores are scratching their heads and wondering why Amazon is kicking their butt? I mean ... I know the sci-fi section has been shrinking, but THE BOOK WON A HUGO AWARD!!!

[*cue to scene of Wil-E-Coyote using the ACME boot-kicker*]

There's nothing I hate more than going into a bookshop, asking for a particular book - giving the title, author's name, and publisher - and STILL getting blank looks in return.

@Ronnie ... where's the 'like' button?

Last time it happened to me, the idiot in Waterstones tried to fob me off with "It's not due for release until next May."

To which I replied, patiently, and slowly for the hard of thinking, "That would be the paperback. I would like the hardback."

This is horrible to say ... but I gave up on my local bookstore a long time ago :-( They cost a ton more money. They have a limited selection. And most of the time when I go in looking for a book, not only do they not have a clue, but often the staff is rude and elitist. I get books from the library, the Salvation Army, on ebook, or if I really really want it for my library, I'll order a paperback off Amazon.

[*yeah ... I know ... I'm an evil person ... but if people want my money $$$, at the very least they can't act rude*]

I used to work for Amazon (nearly six years, on and off), and I could tell you stories about their facility In Gourock that would make your hair stand on end.

But I get why people are turning away from conventional bookshops (my town's only independent one closed several years ago).
If you order something from (for example) Amazon, you're 99% guaranteed that they'll have it in stock cheaper than at a store. Then there's the convenience of having your book drop through your letterbox a few days later, without all the tedious mucking about in town, fighting through crowds, and when you finally get to the bookshop, all your get is blank looks and "Nah, we ain't got that."

You worked in Gourock? Hah! I have a creature named in a book after that place, the site of a 'sea serpent' that washed up on the shore. I didn't realize Amazon had a fulfillment center there.

Yeah ... I have a love/hate relationship with Amazon. Love the convenience. Don't love their bare-knuckled take-no-prisoners market attitude or the horror stories like yours from their employees.

Eventually I think -all- books will be on some sort of electronic reader. Might take a few decades, but it's inevitable. The school just gave my middle schooler a Google Netbook loaded with all of her textbooks for the 7th grade ... not one single paper textbook anymore for grades 7-12.

I don't drive ... I have limited finances ... two reasons I love Amazon and Audible and my Kindle. Yeah, local bookshops are facing problems. (No excuse for rudeness.) But they also have to show people why they should go to them rather than stay home and do it all so easily. I even use the computer to order books that I can't find on Kindle or Audible (or they're too expensive there). It's called betterworldbooks.com - they donate a book for every book you buy.

Reading has always been the poor-man's way to experience the world. A rich man can buy a ticket up to orbit via the Russian space program, but a poor man can conquer an alien world and win the girl simply by going to his local library.

Not a fan of Kindles/ebooks at all.

For one thing, you can't get them signed.

Ronnie wrote: "Not a fan of Kindles/ebooks at all.

For one thing, you can't get them signed."

Sure you can, if the author is willing:

http://www.authorgraph.com/

and I think there are other sites/methods. The Kindle Users Group has discussed this several times.

Interesting article. I think that sci-fi and space opera in particular is in excellent health. Even ardent 'non-likers' of sci-fi seem to flock to the movies with Star Wars and Star Trek, etc. which are pure space opera (and far from the best space opera too IMHO). As far as books go, there is a massive amount of good (and also bad) sci-fi being published by both independents and big publishers. And people (like us) seem to be loving it.
As far as Ancillary Justice goes, I'm not sure if I'll read it or not. I don't have a huge amount of faith in the judges of these big awards, and they pretty much mean nothing to me. I've read some winners and wondered what the fuss is about, Camouflage by Joe Haldeman is a fine example of a very overrated yet decorated book. Once again, just my opinion. Reader awards (like what Analog do with their AnLab, etc.) are what I like to take note of.
Good discussion.

And another reason I don't like Kindles/ebooks, is that you're less likely to have a paperback book stolen if you get mugged.

I thought I'd add my 2 cents worth on the book buying subtopic...

I live in New Zealand and I hardly go to a book store at all anymore. We have a good independent one in the city where I live that has a reasonable range (including sci-fi) but their prices are massive and they're really snooty and arrogant. I buy online either ebooks or print books usually from The Book Depository who ship to my country (as well as heaps of other countries) for free. The days of the bookstore are coming to an end and it's mostly their own fault. Love them and hate them but Amazon seems to be doing something right. It sounds like they're corporate jerks tho.

I like going into a good bookshop and just having a nice browse for half an hour or so. Just to see if anything catches my interest.

I get a ton of books offered to me for free, mostly indie books, because I am a habitual reviewer and also a MOD. But I also like the serendipity of searching through a shelf of paper books, especially used ones at a thrift store or library, and seeing what jumps out at you. For the most part, though, I've given up on physical bookstores for the same reasons Les said ... they act snooty and arrogant ... and they won't carry books written by my indie author friends (even ones that are well-written, well-reviewed, have won awards, and are popular amongst readers). If I go to a bookstore within my town, I expect it to serve -ME- ... not some NYC Big-5 publishing company that's thousands of miles away. They don't care about ME. They don't care about local authors (they say they do, but if you ask to 'buy local' they usually can't suggest a single book). All they care about being elitists. And me ... I'm an unabashed literary mutt.

Ronnie - all good points.

Here are my reasons for loving my Kindle
- no one has to know what I'm reading
- I can carry a HELL of a lot of books while travelling
- it has a great NPR app
- I can listen to my baseball games with it
- I can read and listen to books
- I don't have to worry about what to do with the book when I'm done. (I don't always want to keep the books I read.)
- I can read magazines without having to throw them out when I'm done

Reasons I like audiobooks:
- If I have a migraine or sinus HA, I can listen to a book
- It's a good distraction while at the dentist.
- I don't have prescription sunglasses and it's easier to listen when I'm outside with my dog.

Just saying... sorry if it's too O/T

Les wrote: "...As far as Ancillary Justice goes, I'm not sure if I'll read it or not. I don't have a huge amount of faith in the judges of these big awards, and they pretty much mean nothing to me..."

Aren't the Hugo Awards voted for by readers?

EDIT: Oh, and as for the bookshop not stocking it, I blame the publisher. You'd think that if one of their authors won a major award, the marketing department would do their best to make the most of it and be on the phone to the big bookshop chains. Or am I being naïve?

Steph wrote: "Oh, and as for the bookshop not stocking it, I blame the publisher. You'd think that if one of their authors won a major award, the marketing department would do their best to make the most of it and be on the phone to the big bookshop chains. Or am I being naïve...."

Yeah ... unfortunately ... you're being naive. That's a sub-label of Hatchette. They funnel all their advertising dollars to a dozen superstars such as James Patterson and Nora Roberts, and for everybody else, it's 'go market it yourself.' Unless they offer you a guaranteed movie deal (and not just 'an option'), you'd best not sign with any of them. There's a few small houses that are fair, but the big guys? [*puts on lawyer hat*] Don't be an idiot ... don't sing with them.

"The Hugo Awards are voted on by members of the World Science Fiction Convention, which is also responsible for administering them."
-- http://www.thehugoawards.org/about/

So yes, I guess that the Hugos are sort of a reader's vote. But...

"Nebula Award nominees and winners are chosen by members of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America (SFWA)."
-- http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Nebula_Award

So, a peer based award which is fine by me too, but I put more faith in what readers like us have to say.

I once intended to read though the last 20 years or so of the winners of these two major awards, but after reading and looking into some of them gave that idea away.

Forums like Goodreads are the places to look for proper recognition and appraisal.

Lately I go by Goodreads forums or world of mouth in choosing books rather than awards. I used to follow Hugo & Nebula but lost some of my interest. It's not that the writers are bad-many or very, very good. But like anything else, it goes in trends & I guess I wasn't much into the current trends.

The article was interesting though a bit harsh in its assessment with Baen. I like many of their books-it's not all military, btw-and the do need stuff. A cool podcasts, writers contacts, free ARCs.

I like Baen ... they put tons of legacy sci-fi books for free to re-introduce readers to their authors later works. It's more than any other house has done to try to keep their authors relevant.

Anna wrote: "I like Baen ... they put tons of legacy sci-fi books for free to re-introduce readers to their authors later works. It's more than any other house has done to try to keep their authors relevant."

Yeah, I read the first half a dozen or so Honor Harrington books this way.

But then I was offline for quite a while due to computer issues, and when I finally got back to internet-land, I couldn't find the website to continue where I left off.

Ronnie wrote: "But then I was offline for quite a while due to computer issues, and when I finally got back to internet-land, I couldn't find the website to continue where I left off...."

I'm not sure if these are the same books you were reading, but here's the link to the Baen Free Library: :-)

https://www.baenebooks.com/c-1-free-l...

Check out their short story collections, too, and if you like really eggheaded stuff that's the real-theory-behind the science, they have these non-fiction essays (a hard sci-fi fans dream).

Try also The Fifth Imperium:

http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com

Heaps of Baen books here with the approval of Baen books I believe.

Anna wrote: "I like Baen ... they put tons of legacy sci-fi books for free to re-introduce readers to their authors later works. It's more than any other house has done to try to keep their authors relevant."

I like their re-issues and classic SF works etc. Even though I love to have more modern space opera with more diverse ethnic backgrounds that much of the classic stuff, I still love the 50's, 60's 70's SF (even a big fan of old time radio sci fi) because I think the stories were better-more excitement, more adventure, and more optimism. Today has a bit to much dystopian, personal problems etc at times. Baen has done great at capturing the adventure spirit of both old and new.

Anna wrote: "Steph wrote: "Oh, and as for the bookshop not stocking it, I blame the publisher. You'd think that if one of their authors won a major award, the marketing department would do their best to make th..."

I generally hear good things about Baen and ROC from author types.

I was surprised none of the big stores in my area had it because Ancillary Justice for it's flaws has a really cool cover and a good blurb. Heck if I was a bookstore I would have a section for just award winning books this year it just sounds like a good marketing idea

mrsbookmark wrote: "I still love the 50's, 60's 70's SF (even a big fan of old time radio sci fi) because I think the stories were better-more excitement, more adventure, and more optimism. Today has a bit to much dystopian..."

Have you read Tsar Wars by Stephen Goldin? He co-wrote books with E.E. Doc Smith and his tongue-in-cheek Tsar Wars series has that same campy awesomeness that the older space opera books and the Star Wars IV-VI movies had. The first book in the series is FREE right here: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/...

Aaron wrote: "Heck if I was a bookstore I would have a section for just award winning books this year it just sounds like a good marketing idea ..."

Unfortunately, most bookstores these days survive by stocking what the NYC Big-5 publishers TELL them to stock. Were you aware the placement of books on most bookstore, supermarket, and chain store shelves are actually PURCHASED by the publishing house? For example, if you go into Barnes & Noble and see the latest James Patterson novel turned face-out, that costs thousands of dollars per month, and those end-cap placements at B&N cost $30,000 per month. And then there are the paper-copy distributors, who tell bookstores what they should buy. Ditto for the Barnes & Noble/Nook ebook platforms.

So ... being dictated what to buy? Meh... Not for me. Nobody tells me what to think/buy/like/favor/purchase.

Anna, many thanks for the Baen free ebooks library. What a find! I've bought their books for years, but had no idea they were so generous with their publications.

I note a goodly amount is fairly recent stuff. Do you know if the authors represented are given a choice about posting their work for free, be this short story or book? Given the necessity, these days, for authors to promote and market vigorously, are Baen writers counting on any download being a good download/marketing tactic?

I'm well aware I'm surprised they arn't working with the publishers on it, it seems like a good gimmicky seasonal sale stuff. I mean they do the NYT best sellers list which has been shown to NOT just be the best selling books.

Anna wrote: "So ... being dictated what to buy? Meh... Not for me. Nobody tells me what to think/buy/like/favor/purchase. "

Welcome to marketing. Good luck on that I try to do my research on everything before I buy it but at some point I gotta trust someone. Breaking out of your segmented market is the hardest to constantly remind yourself.

Honestly everyone should watch thecheckout they have season 2 up on youtube it's an Australian consumer show that's really funny.

Charlotte wrote: "I note a goodly amount is fairly recent stuff. Do you know if the authors represented are given a choice about posting their work for free, be this short story or book? Given the necessity, these days, for authors to promote and market vigorously, are Baen writers counting on any download being a good download/marketing tactic? "

It pretty much is, I became a huge fan of Baen though the free library. I convince my friends to start reading series by going here look right here FREE!!! Same with Humble Book Bundles.

I'm actually surprised ereaders don't have friends lists with tons of social media crap crammed in yet, YOUR FRIEND IS ON PAGE 207 OF THIS BOOK READ THE FIRST 50 PAGES FREE NOW!!!. Also having friends comments at the end of chapters/parts, like for example steam sales, did you know that when steam puts a game on 75% off they sell on average ~16x more copies then normal, and after the sale ends they sell ~2-4x more copies then normal at the full price for months afterwards. That's because of the power of word of mouth, and the fact that you visibly see your friends playing a game and if you see them playing it alot you go huh and look into it.

@Charlotte - Baen -does- do this with author permission. I've sat on panels at ARISIA with author Jeffrey A. Carver and his first-one-free at Baen is one of the ways he introduces readers to his newer books.

@Aaron - one of my weird grad-school specialties is Propaganda Analysis ... so I'm pretty aware of when I'm being 'sold.' Now mind you, I don't mind so much if somebody wants to bring a product they're selling to my attention so I can make an educated decision whether it's something I -need-, but a lot of what they do these days is underhanded, sneaky, and largely subliminal. If you're not aware what they're doing and make conscious choices, you're just another sheeple being led down the chute :-P

Anna wrote: "mrsbookmark wrote: "I still love the 50's, 60's 70's SF (even a big fan of old time radio sci fi) because I think the stories were better-more excitement, more adventure, and more optimism. Today h..."

Thanks for the Tsar Wars suggestion. Really enjoying it!