The Pickwick Club discussion

Dear Fellow Pickwickians,

the moment has come to say goodbye to quite a wild bunch of truly Dickensian characters such as Mrs. Gamp and Mrs. Harris, Poll Sweedlepipe and the inimitable Bailey Junior, to the abominable Pecksniff and his daughters, to the despondent Augustus, the struggling Mrs. Todgers, to the Pinches and the specious Tiggs and Joblings and Jonases and all the others.

As we can see in the last four chapters, Dickens tries to find a suitable dismission of each of his characters from the novel, and into the reader's memory.

Let's discuss here how you think he manages in this.

[In a few days I am going to open a last thread in which the novel as a whole can be commented on ...]

I guess Dickens followed Shakespeare's concept of Humour and Tragedy... Wed the good characters and you create a comedy; kill the bad ones and you create a tragedy.

While Pecksniff does not pass on to his just reward(?) Westlock and Ruth will marry. No doubt Westlock will thrive under Ruth's cooking. I admit I wanted Tom Pinch to find true love but that did not happen.

Of all Dickens' novels this is my Waterloo. Because it is Dickens I like it, but it sits at the bottom of my list. No rants coming in Tristram's last thread coming up, but hopefully some comments that will make sense.

I Love Dombey and Son. Can't wait!

I like your Shakespeare-Dickens parallel, Peter, because I think there's a lot to it. Just as Shakespeare, for all his sublimity, can be rather ribald at times and uses comic relief and thereby provides things of interest to a broad audience, from the sex-and-crime-addict to the aesthete, Dickens also combines artful drama and grotesque humour. He tells gripping stories but there is usually more behind them.

The last few chapters, however, did not completely convince me. I was thunderstruck by Jonases downfall and Dickens's description of it, and chuffed to bits by Charity being jilted in front of all those whom she intended to humiliate. On the other hand, many scenes were too contrived to be palatable. Take, for instance, the appearance of Sweedlepipe with Bailey in his wake. What business should they have had right there right then? I was delighted to see Bailey in good health after all, but it came as an afterthought on the author's part - that was all too obvious. It was just as though Dickens remembered that he still had to clear up Bailey's fate.

Another thing that did not go down too well with me was the deus-ex-machina function of Martin senior, who ladles out bliss or destruction to nearly everyone in the novel. His strategy of putting Pecksniff to the test was not creditable, either, as he was already convinced of the latter's moral bankruptcy. I also found it very presumptuous in Martin senior to rant at Mrs. Gamp and call advise her to be a little less selfish. After all, he himself has just been cured from his selfishness, and now one of the first things he does is reproach a woman with selfishness whose life has been infinitely harder than his own. Have we got a new Hypocrite here?

By the way, Peter, it's interesting that you consider MC your Waterloo. Maybe that would be something to talk about in the thread "Reflexions upon the Novel as a Whole"?

Tristram

Great minds think alike, or is it fools seldom differ? You have covered many of my points of contention/complaint above, but I still have a few to add in our summary thread. This novel was the most uneven of all Dickens' novels to date, at least in my mind. Of course, my mind really liked TOCS.

Peter wrote: "Tristram

Great minds think alike, or is it fools seldom differ?"


In our case, I'm inclined to think it is the former.

MC is really uneven, at least as much so as a cycling tour through the Alps on old rickety bikes. However, TOCS also struck me as extremely ill-conceived: There is the change of narrative voice, the fading-out of the story of Little Nell's brother, the utter lack of motive, if we be honest, on the part of Quilp for his hatred of Nell (if we set aside his possible taste for good literary characters, and his distaste for bad ones) and her grandfather.

MC wins a lot because of its humour and its exuberant characters. But that's just my two cents.

Hello strangers! This is a quick post as I should be getting ready for work. I finally caught up and finished Chuzzlewit last night after racing through it over the last few weeks . I thought the ending with Tom was disappointing and would prefer to see Pecksniff somehow sent to Eden.

Some of Dickens' descriptive writing was at his best so far.

I have never read Dombey and Son so looking forward to it. I just hope I can keep up this time!

Kate wrote: "Hello strangers! This is a quick post as I should be getting ready for work. I finally caught up and finished Chuzzlewit last night after racing through it over the last few weeks . I thought the e..."

Welcome back. We could give you a detention, or worse, force you to sit through staff meetings at two schools.

Peter wrote: "Kate wrote: "Hello strangers! This is a quick post as I should be getting ready for work. I finally caught up and finished Chuzzlewit last night after racing through it over the last few weeks . I ..."

Lol. Thanks Peter but I think I'll pass on the staff meetings.

Peter wrote: "While Pecksniff does not pass on to his just reward ..."

No, you're right. He doesn't become rich, or earn a seat in Parliament or even a knighthood for his services to the nation. He remains largely unappreciated for his kindness and goodness to others.

Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "While Pecksniff does not pass on to his just reward ..."

No, you're right. He doesn't become rich, or earn a seat in Parliament or even a knighthood for his services to the nation. ..."

Everyman

LOL. Has all this beautiful west coast weather turned you into a Canadian? I keep waiting for Kim's motorhome to roll up to our door. Have you had any sightings?

Peter wrote: "Has all this beautiful west coast weather turned you into a Canadian? I keep waiting for Kim's motorhome to roll up to our door. Have you had any sightings? "

I've alerted the Sheriff to be on the lookout for any motorhomes laden with Christmas trinkets. He agrees that obviously anybody carrying around a load of Christmas junk this time of the year is a highly suspicious character, and is prepared to stop and detain them until a satisfactory explanation is offered. By which time I will have had plenty of warning and will be in my kayak and heading across to Victoria to rendezvous with you and plan defense to prevent her from entering Canada.

Kim/Everyman

It's a race! Kim: if you get to Victoria first we'll head one province over to where it has been snowing already this early fall. Mountains, snow, cool temperatures. Ideal!

Everyman: If you get to Victoria first we'll wait for Kim at Mile 0 which is, literally, 2 blocks from where I live.

On you mark, get set, ...

Peter wrote: If you get to Victoria first we'll wait for Kim at Mile 0 which is, literally, 2 blocks from where I live."

Well, I'll need a passport first -- mine is decades out of date. But I hope you get to sail your boat around the Harrison Yacht Pond. When I was in England at age 11 my parents bought he a boat I loved sailing in Regents Pond. One of my favorite memories of England!

Peter wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "While Pecksniff does not pass on to his just reward ..."

No, you're right. He doesn't become rich, or earn a seat in Parliament or even a knighthood for his service..."

Now that I'm finally back in Pennsylvania, which by the way as far as I can tell by this trip has the best internet than any other state. At least any other state that me and my motorhome have been in these last few weeks. We were considering continuing our trip out west, but the closer we got to the west coast the more things that fell off the motorhome and I was really tired of truck garages, so we turned around. We didn't have a problem once we headed back east again, obviously the east coast is the place to be. Besides it is almost time to get ready for Christmas and you will all be coming here then anyway.

Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "Has all this beautiful west coast weather turned you into a Canadian? I keep waiting for Kim's motorhome to roll up to our door. Have you had any sightings? "

I've alerted the Sherif..."

Why would your old deserted island need a sheriff in the first place? However if you do really have one, he could sort of lead us into the town with his lights blinking and I'll buy some of those lights all the campgrounds have for sale to put around your patio, they always remind me of Christmas lights anyway. We could even throw popcorn balls to the kids. That's what they do here every Christmas eve. The Lykens police leads, then the Santa Claus truck goes by, then another truck with a church on it playing Silent Night, and everyone driving and Santa and the elfs are all throwing popcorn balls. The same old trucks are still going through town that were going through when I was a kid.

Lykens Santa Claus Truck

Peter wrote: "Kim/Everyman

It's a race! Kim: if you get to Victoria first we'll head one province over to where it has been snowing already this early fall. Mountains, snow, cool temperatures. Ideal!

Every..."


I win. It doesn't matter who gets there first. I still win. Because I said so that's why.

Warm Reception of Mr. Pecksniff by His Venerable Friend

Chapter 52

The Nuptials of Miss Pecksniff receive a temporary check

Chapter 54

Kim wrote: "Peter wrote: "Kim/Everyman

It's a race! Kim: if you get to Victoria first we'll head one province over to where it has been snowing already this early fall. Mountains, snow, cool temperatures. ..."

Welcome home! I'm glad you are safe and sound and I hope you found some wonderful decorations for this year's display.

Wasn't there just one, brief, fleeting moment when you were tempted to come visit here, on both sides of the border?

Peter wrote: "Kim wrote: "Peter wrote: "Kim/Everyman

It's a race! Kim: if you get to Victoria first we'll head one province over to where it has been snowing already this early fall. Mountains, snow, cool te..."

I would absolutely love to! Just so long as it's before October and after December it would be fine with me. Most places are before October and after March because I don't want to miss any Pennsylvania cold weather, but I'm pretty sure the weather in Canada would be cold enough that I would enjoy it even in January and February. As I was spending a pleasant evening in front of the television in Flint Michigan I saw it was going to snow in Canada. Awesome. :-}

I'm sure you are happy to be back home again, Kim, and I know how you feel. My wife asked me yesterday what I thought about going somewhere for the autumn holidays, and I replied what she meant by it. Was it just my going somewhere, or us, as a family, going somewhere? The answers would vary, I told her, according to the situation.

What shall I say? The smile on her face gave me a small foretaste, not exactly of Christmas, but at any rate of winter ...

Kim wrote: "Peter wrote: "Kim wrote: "Peter wrote: "Kim/Everyman

It's a race! Kim: if you get to Victoria first we'll head one province over to where it has been snowing already this early fall. Mountains,..."

Kim

I can almost promise I could find lots of cold, snowy weather in Canada during the months of January and February. Keep an eye on the province of Manitoba. Naturally, we have the Artic as well ...

Peter wrote: "I can almost promise I could find lots of cold, snowy weather in Canada during the months of January and February. Keep an eye on the province of Manitoba. Naturally, we have the Artic as well ..."

Sounds wonderful.

Kim wrote: " We didn't have a problem once we headed back east again, obviously the east coast is the place to be."

Whew. That spell Peter and I cast worked.

Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: " We didn't have a problem once we headed back east again, obviously the east coast is the place to be."

Whew. That spell Peter and I cast worked."

I'm not sure I told you lately, you're a nut.

Oops I was on holiday and have only just finished the book. Not much to say, except that I agree that it was a pity that Tom didn't find a true love. I got a little confused in the last page as to whether the child (not Ruth's) dancing around Tom was that of his erstwhile longed for Mary, a figment of his imagination or a throwback to some past memory.

Oh and, of course, Everyman, we all do understand that Pecksniff was the hero of the piece; misunderstood, belittled, falsely tried and found wanting. Indeed, a palace would have been much more apt for his later years even than a position in parliament. 'Tis a true saying: the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

Kim wrote: "I'm not sure I told you lately, you're a nut. "

It takes one to know one!

Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: "I'm not sure I told you lately, you're a nut. "

It takes one to know one!"

Yes, but there are a lot of varieties of nuts out there. Which are you?

I've finally finished this, and throughly enjoyed both the novel and all your comments along the way , even though they're in retrospect! Just reading one behind the group now, so I'm slowly catching up *sigh*

I have to say, the episode where Martin senior gives Pecksniff a jolly good thrashing made me cheer! It sounded as if Pecksniff was destined to live a shabby impoverished life, writing begging letters to Tom, amongst others, doesn't it? Now I've finished the book I tend to think that his was a masterpiece of self-delusion. Any hints earlier on that he might have been "acting a part" for others, seem to have completely dissipated by the end. He's totally convinced of his own pious worth.

I loved how Cherry was jilted in front of all those relatives, in front of whom she intended to gloat. I liked the way Dickens bookended the novel there too.

It did seemed a bit contrived, that Bailey should "return from the dead", but the delightful humour of that episode, with him being all topsy-turvy, more than made up for it!

Maybe we are meant to wonder if poor Augustus will not drown, as he protested that he hoped, but return to find his one true love Merry? If not, she will be looked after by Martin senior, who seems to have taken it upon himself after years of selfishness, to act as a bountiful kind old gentleman (another character conversion of the type beloved by Dickens).

I too am sad about Tom Pinch though. Dickens always ties things up neatly at the end, and rewards his good characters, but although we are assured that Tom's life is a fulfilled one, I felt he deserved better, and personally wanted more for him.

Jean

I, too, wanted more of a "happy ever after" future for Tom. MC is found at the very bottom of my favourite books by Dickens.

Ah Tom! What a good-hearted soul!

Peter - yes I gathered it wasn't your favourite! However, I was surprised how much I enjoyed it. The only jarring note for me was the very first American episode, but the masterly description of the time in Eden more than made up for that - for me. I was interested to read Dickens's postscript, which made me wonder whether he would have liked to rework some of those American scenes, had he had the opportunity.

Hilary - :)