SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

I'm reading a screenplay by Harlan Ellison and came across this. Considering all the freebies that authors have and/or are expected to have, this is really funny. I'm sure the marketing machine would not agree. :) What do you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuLr9...

Oh, Ellison's short answer is 'f no.' Someone was shocked when he said, "Sure, how much do I get paid?" The person hemmed and hawed, everyone else is doing it for free. He said: Do you get paid? Does your boss get paid? Does the guy who schleps your stuff get paid?

That was then. This is now. But . . . What if all the freebies went away, no more KU, no more promos, no more free anything? What a concept. It could be interesting. :)

I HATE it when people work for free! (I don't mean volunteers for charity like soup kitchens or disasters, etc). It ruins it for so many. It's like people who teach piano (or any instrument, for that matter) for peanuts--usually people who have no business teaching it in the first place. Just because someone has taken piano lessons doesn't mean they have a clue how to teach it well--or even that they have had good training (or even if they have, if they play well). Also when they only charge by the week and so many other unprofessional things.

I am not a fan (wrong age group, but even my daughters aren't big fans) and don't like everything about her, but one of the two things I do admire about Taylor Swift is that she has taken a stand for songwriter's rights--sure, she is raking in a lot of money, but most songwriters don't. The other thing is that she promotes new artists.

It's so true! For all art! Apparently everyone can do it, so everyone should just get it for free.

I always say, when someone grumbles how expensive some beautiful thing is, that if you can do it yourself, go a whole day only consuming beautiful things you made with your own sweat. No TV, no music, no games, no paintings/drawings/photos, no writing etc. that you haven't personally made. And then tell me what monetary value you'd place on the joy you lost that day. (Not to mention productivity! Music, rewards of new things to read, eye-breaks looking at my favorite artwork...they all keep me able to focus on the less beautiful things I have to make for my own paycheck!)

Tangents, tangents... but Allison's 'one day experiment' demands the acknowledgement of the engineers and all the other more discreet 'artistry' we rely upon in our everyday life: the modellers of your car parts, door knobs, laptops, household items, electronics and furniture, shoes, clothes, electric sockets, dental fixtures... everything (even the things most of us may not perceive as 'beautiful' - "in the eye of the beholder", after all) was designed by someone, often by several separate factions. None of what we use today in our modern daily life just came to be, but is often the result of hours of training, perfecting the tools, decision making, team effort... and artistry.

That toothpick and the plastic cover it came in, and all the separate parts of the machines that made them... and so worth. Human creativeness.

This font you read (designer varies depending on your system), this forum we browse... dizzying amount of work hours and energy spent. Time and money.

...it's late here. I should get to bed (actually, I am in bed, just need to shut the laptop. But I'm reluctant to stop enjoying the artistry just yet *hah* ...ehh).

Very true!

In short, FYPM! (view spoiler)[(eff you, pay me!) (hide spoiler)] is the cry of the day.

I'm throwing some polemics here, please don't be offended.

I'm thinking on self publishing myself and I must confess that unless I know the author/or the blurb makes me very interested in a self published book that I am not willing to pay the same price as for a traditionally published book that I heard a lot of people commenting and saying it's good. The reason is that I've read my share of self pub books and only 20% of them were good. A huge amount of authors self publishes a first draft that they never revised and expects people to pay a high price nevertheless. I reviewed even a couple of such books for Netgalley and they were badly in need of a revision and rewrite. I also read first drafts from other authors I know in social media and very rarely I could give back only positive feedback. A couple of stuff I read could have been written by an eight year old kid.

So, if someone isn't an established author with avid fans waiting for their next book, making their first book in the series free or quite cheap for marketing reasons would be valid as long as they have next books that can be bought. No point putting the first book out there for free if your sequel will be ready in one year. I am planning on probably doing that myself or I might sell it for a cheap price. The next books should have a normal price and an author should never sell their whole trilogy/series for 99 cents or free.

I think that self published authors are in serious need of an organization that measures the quality of the writing in self published books to separate the well written books from the flood of first drafts out there.

All that said I also don't participate anymore in anthologies and e-zines that pay nothing to authors. I did that for a while for 'reasons' like getting my work edited for free and learning with the process, but I see today that it was a lot of nonsense. Nowadays I would only offer a short story for free if the anthology or zine was meant for charity.

There are plenty of well established authors with a huge fan base whose books I wouldn't pay two cents for, so I don't think that's a measurement I can go by :D

Of course everyone should be paid for their articles, their art, their writing, their handicraft - their work, whatever it is (unless otherwise mutually agreed, of course). No one should ever expect to just get something for free.

Dawn wrote: "There are plenty of well established authors with a huge fan base whose books I wouldn't pay two cents for, so I don't think that's a measurement I can go by :D

I certainly can agree with that first statement of yours, Dawn. It made me think of the litterary garbage put out by that 'famous bestselling author', E.L. James and her 'Fifty shades...of garbage.

About the subject of this thread, allow me to represent those authors who give away their novels for free. I am a retired man in his sixties living on a fixed pension and not swimming in gold. However, money, while indispensable to support my family, is not a primary interest for me. Writing, however, is my life and a cherished hobby that allows me to let out my imagination. My main goal as a writer, apart from keeping me busy in my older years, is to entertain others with my stories and have friends and contacts around the World. Do you charge friends when you give them a gift? Of course not! Could I make money eventually by selling my stories? Probably, but I don't care about money. A true author writes to spread ideas out, not simply to become rich (no, I don't consider E.L. James as a true author). So, please excuse me if I continue in my bad ways.

I don't think it's about the choice, Michel! It's about the expectation. If an artist decides to offer you a gift of their art, that's lovely, but if you want that art and they're not intending to gift it, the medium is money!

It is very bohemian of you to be so noble to your art ;-) but I think the expectation that it be free is very different from the individual decision to offer it for free.

Allison wrote: "I don't think it's about the choice, Michel! It's about the expectation. If an artist decides to offer you a gift of their art, that's lovely, but if you want that art and they're not intending to ..."

A good point!

Ok, so I'm going to come at this from another angle thanks to some of my own experience with acquaintances and friends. Writers also do the freebie thing to their friends. I cannot tell you how many people I know come to me because of how much I read and how well I can write professionally to have me read their books in order to edit, provide ideas, and so on and so forth. In addition, it is almost never a completed book. Which means when they decide on a whim to completely change their story line, I get to redo the whole process. No compensation ever is offered and much of the time people get offended when I suggest editing to make a better book. (Grammar and sentence structure drive me crazy thanks to one of my college professors.) I actually have stopped reading friend's novels because of how angry they get that I am not loving their work like they think I should be. So it is not just the authors that are expected to provide freebies out there.

Side note: I am big on the whole people need to get paid for what they have created. Always on my artist friends who sell their art to make sure they are pricing correctly rather than less money because they don't think it is perfect. :)

Don't work for free. It devalues your skill and the craft as a whole. The moment you hear the words "for the exposure" you know it's BS.
As a self-published author turned traditional, I can say with confidence that it's not that hard to find the good indie authors. One look at the cover will tell you if they care enough to produce quality work. Not to say the cover will determine your enjoyment. But if an indie has the attitude of "it's good enough" it will show in the presentation.
You'll get more typos. But I've read traditional work where a few mistakes were missed. So long as it's not riddled with them, it shouldn't diminish your experience.

It is very kind of you to help out author friends. Personally, I feel like it's too much to ask of mine, so I don't. I have hired professional developmental editors for a couple of my novels. And it cost me thousands of dollars! So what you are doing is more than generous.
I also have seen some authors who are not willing to put in the work necessary to make their books the best they can be. Or they are proceeding on the false assumption that one draft is enough. It never is, even for the most experienced of writers.
I hope your friends appreciate you. If not, I would start to say no.

There are so many free books out there! I've downloaded a number of them, but the books I read first are the ones I paid for.

@Karin - I really admire Taylor Swift. Mega talent, brilliant business woman, and focused. And she's been that way since before sixteen. I think she is amazing. When people knock her, it's just jealousy, schadenfreude.

@Jemppu - yes! All the things I can't do without and often take for granted are the creative ingenuity of someone, many someones. Goodreads, for example, the tech archs that designed it and the tech support that runs it. I've seen 'simplified' tech arch diagrams showing how products online get to the end user and it's, well . . . I still don't know how it does.

@Allison - my new favorite acronym, FYPM :) For some reason the arts are undervalued. In the intro to the screenplay, Ellison says every 'person' just knows if they only had enough time they could do it, and do it better. Yeah, right. He's great. Acerbic, yes, but that's him.

@Michel - I think it's great to give away, if that's what you choose. As Allison said, it's the perception, the expectation. I think some folks out there think it's owed because they are so used to it. How dare anyone ask for money; I mean, they could probably do better if they wanted to. Mm-hmm. :)

@Leticia - this is true and a lot of writers give away the first hoping it will bring readers to the series. It often does. I know a number of successful writers who have done that. They also spend a lot of money which is kind of--I mean it's ok--but to me spending money to give something away, hmm, well, it's an individual choice. I also think we are in an echo chamber with the whole idea: they do, he did it, she did it, etc. I've seen lots of claims about sales and stuff, but rarely does anyone mention the bottom line. Sometimes they say they broke even. That's good, not knocking it.

@Pixiegirl - you're braver than me. I've had experience critiquing and no one is ever happy unless praise is being heaped. And sometime not even then, it isn't enough or it's not the right kind or they wanted to hear about every little aspect. One author complained about the five star review because it didn't say enough. Excuse me. I wasn't the reviewer but I thought, well, better not say.

@Brian - I agree. It does devalue on an individual level and on an industrywide level. Lots of free stuff that is just given to me I never use. Part of the idea is having 'market share.' If I'm using 'their' product, then I'm not using someone else's product. But seriously, looking at the hundreds, maybe thousands, of categories for a book in Amazon and where it is, like number 201 or 10, whatever. For each category there is the tab for paid and the tab for free; only the top 100, but still it just gives an idea of how many 'free' books there are.

@Dawn - Same here, sometimes I really wonder.

@Laurie - it is a lot to ask and I don't think those who do realize how much it is or how much it takes to do a thorough job. One thing about the professionals, I've seen books that are professionally edited and started to read them and even the pros miss things. I think some folks get their MSs back and think it's good to go. Nope, gotta check the pros too. :)

Pixiegirl105 wrote: "Ok, so I'm going to come at this from another angle thanks to some of my own experience with acquaintances and friends. Writers also do the freebie thing to their friends. I cannot tell you how many people I know come to me because of how much I read and how well I can write professionally to have me read their books in order to edit, provide ideas, and so on and so forth. In addition, it is almost never a completed book. Which means when they decide on a whim to completely change their story line, I get to redo the whole process. No compensation ever is offered and much of the time people get offended when I suggest editing to make a better book. (Grammar and sentence structure drive me crazy thanks to one of my college professors.) I actually have stopped reading friend's novels because of how angry they get that I am not loving their work like they think I should be. So it is not just the authors that are expected to provide freebies out there."


THIS. This has been a lot of my experience.

I'm older than a good deal than most of yall. When I first started on the internet with books i was like a wide-eyed child. I was quickly inundated with entitled requests for book reviews that were actually editing requests. And I used to get PMs requesting that I email the author the "found errors w/page numbers" but I not post that in reviews. Because letting others know about issues is destroying his/her career. UGH. Stuff like that continued until I stopped accepting review requests.

Also. FAMILY. My brother (and others but bro is the primary issue) is a writer. Unpublished. And unpublished because he wants me to be his: editor, copy-editor, formattor, publisher. He NEVER corrected my edits but instead kept writing while sending me back the UNCORRECTED and unedited manuscript. Yes. He wouldn't even send me back the damn file I edited to begin with.

That kept on until I told him to shove it and not to send me anything until he addressed ALL my previous edits.

Allison wrote: "It's so true! For all art! Apparently everyone can do it, so everyone should just get it for free.

I always say, when someone grumbles how expensive some beautiful thing is, that if you can do it ..."

If people knew how many hours and years goes into becoming a good artist they would change their minds! The same goes for music, especially classical and good jazz musicians. But a surprising number of people are impressed by not very good performances.

There is a saying (not literally true now, but it makes the point quite well that, "Popular musicians play three chords for thousands and jazz musicians play thousands of chords for three people."

It is also ironic that some not very good actors and musicians make a lot more money than some of the better ones. You may be a fan of his and like his movies, but there isn't a thespian I have met who thinks Tom Cruise can act, for just one example, and they readily admit when good looking people can act. But the movies he's in tend to make money, and that's the bottom line. It's much harder to get away with that on stage. AND, autotune is low grade--there is software out there that can make some very bad singers sound on pitch just because they make an attractive marketing package and can dance--this is in the pop music (I'm including all things like rock, blues, country and many other things).

I believe that some of the best artists in history were mostly unknown in their time. Some were nearly destitute. They only got famous with the passage of years, thanks to the word of mouth. Others were mostly rejected by their contemporaries for being considered too unorthodox or out of the social norms of the time. The same goes for many great writers.

See, people always misconstrue (IMO) the lure of Tom Cruise. No, he's not a great actor. He's attractive with good bone structure but he's not even the most attractive.

What pulls people into Cruise is Cruise. He doesn't really play parts, he Tom Cruises around flashing the Tom Cruise grin and doing the Tom Cruise stunts. He looks like he's having a BALL and he's inviting you to have a ton of fun with him. He has IT.

Laurie wrote: "It is very kind of you to help out author friends. Personally, I feel like it's too much to ask of mine, so I don't. I have hired professional developmental editors for a couple of my novels. And i..."

Hello Laurie, actually I started saying no once people started getting mad at my editing their grammar and sentence structure. My one friend I am still helping, I have told her I will read and assist once she has finished her book as every time I start giving her my assistance, she completely rewrites everything prior to my giving it. Lol!!

I get that new and experienced authors need the feedback. Just a little appreciation here and there would be nice. :)

M.L. wrote: "There are so many free books out there! I've downloaded a number of them, but the books I read first are the ones I paid for.

@Karin - I really admire Taylor Swift. Mega talent, brilliant busines..."

Well, I mainly wanted to support my author friends. Then I had to think about how much my time was worth. Ironically, this came about because I was writing a paper for my seminar class and was looking for the same people to read my 6 pages versus the 200 or so pages that they were doing. Their complaint was it was a math paper and so they couldn't understand anything. None of them opened the actual paper to read it in fact. They just told me that they wouldn't understand because math. Interesting note, there was only one equation (which I assumed none of my friends would understand)...the rest was on the practical usage of harmonics and oscillation. Or to short hand it...music and vibrations. Lol! That was when I stopped actually helping people.

MrsJoseph *grouchy* wrote: "Pixiegirl105 wrote: "Ok, so I'm going to come at this from another angle thanks to some of my own experience with acquaintances and friends. Writers also do the freebie thing to their friends. I ca..."

Yeah I totally get that. As far as your brother goes, he should've at least fixed the issues. If it were typewriter age still, I could see how that would be an issue. With computers though making the editing changes should be a snap. Personally I would've just sent him the same file over and over with the original edits every time a new file was sent over until he made the corrections. Lol. Then when he came back saying "why does your file only go to page 80 when my copy I just sent goes to page 120?" You can say, "I figured you accidentally sent me the same one again as no corrections from the last time were made." lol!!!!!!!!!!

Pixiegirl105 wrote: "Yeah I totally get that. As far as your brother goes, he should've at least fixed the issues. If it were typewriter age still, I could see how that would be an issue. With computers though making the editing changes should be a snap. Personally I would've just sent him the same file over and over with the original edits every time a new file was sent over until he made the corrections. Lol. Then when he came back saying "why does your file only go to page 80 when my copy I just sent goes to page 120?" You can say, "I figured you accidentally sent me the same one again as no corrections from the last time were made." lol!!!!!!!!!!"

This is a great idea! I wish I had have thought of it. I totally would have done it.

Pixiegirl, I used to proofread my ex-husband’s math papers on partial differential equations. Lots of equations, but no numbers! I would have gladly read your paper on harmonica and oscillations. As a musician, I might even have understood some of it. I still would proofread it for you!

MrsJoseph *grouchy* wrote: "Pixiegirl105 wrote: "Yeah I totally get that. As far as your brother goes, he should've at least fixed the issues. If it were typewriter age still, I could see how that would be an issue. With comp..."

After years of being a gamer chick, I've learned how to deal with guys who don't want to do the work. ;) lol!!!!

Diane wrote: "Pixiegirl, I used to proofread my ex-husband’s math papers on partial differential equations. Lots of equations, but no numbers! I would have gladly read your paper on harmonica and oscillations. A..."

Aww thank you Diane!! When I was writing it I was trying to think of ways to make math more accessible to non-math people. Which is why I focused on music, specifically Beethoven. Due to his being deaf (which I'm sure you already know), he had to composer based on the vibrations of sound versus actual sound later in life. I have always found that fascinating. I also went a bit into the idea that the roar of a lion has a frequency that actually paralyzes antelopes and how maybe technology based on that would be better than some of the other methods of crowd control. :) It wasn't much as it was only for my BS degree, but eventually I plan to flesh it out into a doctorate someday. :)

(side note....as a musician who has watched Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventures, it has constantly annoyed me that Beethoven could compose on the synthesizers.)

This is all great conversation but I think we're veering off from the "should authors have freebies or always get paid" question/ thoughts on Ellison's clip!

Should authors have freebies? Hell yes, you should. Why? Because there are close to 1billion books being published - not sold, published - on a yearly basis.

How to you plan to get yourself out there if you do not have a TradPub behind you or you are not already well known/have a following? That's where the free book comes in.

And damn near every business person gives something away for free in order to get new clients in the door. I do it. Singers do it. Big authors do it. Publishers do it. Gyms do it. I don't know of a lot of companies/professions that do not. Maybe hair stylists, nail techs and contractors don't...but they go through schools and/or programs where they work for free and/or low cost for years while sharpening their skills and building clientele.

Big industry is driven by corporate greed: drive down cost, drive up profits. To do that they need cheap labor to manufacture. One line does, so the others have to as well or go out of business. This is not the middleman's fault. It's corporate. Big publishers are just that, corporate.

But for writing, and this is what Ellison is talking about (not the garment industry), he says there are always those who are willing to work for free or less and by doing so it undercuts everyone. (That's one reason labor unions used to beat up strike breakers if they crossed the picket line. Not nice thing to do. But they were fighting for something.)

'Free' isn't going away. If you publish through KDP and even want to do a give away your ebook has to be in Select, so it's part of KU and subscribers to KU get it free. (Amazon is pretty good at this stuff. :) Or an author can 'go wide' and publish all over and have their book permanently free. Not a bad option, maybe; more work though.

But just a 'what if.' What if everyone charged. Everyone. Just this one industry. Free would still be available at the library. Ellison said the idea of doing it for publicity is--not sure of his exact words but basically--a bunch of bull.

It's something to think about because everyone is so brainwashed with the idea of 'free.' Not our fault! Corporate spends billions to do it. :) But since I've been more or less an observer of the whole indie/SPA thing, I can't help but see the money trap that writers get into because they market their *free* work. On the other hand, well, that's enough for now.:)

MrsJoseph *grouchy* wrote: "And damn near every business person gives something away for free in order to get new clients in the door. I do it. Singers do it. Big authors do it. Publishers do it. Gyms do it. I don't know of a lot of companies/professions that do not.."

Yeah, promotions and products that are termed “loss-leaders” get people in the door. Drug dealers always say, “the first taste is free.” Milk is a loss-leader for grocery stores. If we paid for the actual mark-up on milk, it would cost double what it does, but the price is kept artificially low to get you in the store so you’ll buy the things with large profit margins.

Car companies do this with their base model cars, getting consumers invested in the product. Honda did it incredibly successfully with the CRX and Accord back in the day, while GM created an entire division, Saturn, to entice people back into the General Motors fold. GM is doing it again this time with the 2020 mid-engine Corvette. They’re generating lots of buzz by stating the base model will sell at $60,000, which is preposterously cheap. Next year the base price will likely be $75k or more.

The new Disney+ streaming service is coming out at sub-$7 a month, in a blatant attempt at siphoning off Netflix and Amazon users. It will work, too, because that’s a bargain. After a year they’ll hike the price to $10-12 a month.

But in Ellison’s case, he’s right: there’s no percentage in it for him to give away work. He was already more famous than Babylon 5 or J. Michael Straczynski. Not paying him was an insult.

M.L. wrote: "Big industry is driven by corporate greed: drive down cost, drive up profits. To do that they need cheap labor to manufacture. One line does, so the others have to as well or go out of business. Th..."

I would ask: What makes you (this industry) special? More special than everyone else?

As Trike said, "loss leaders" get new clients in the door. It didn't come about because of corporate greed. It came about because of human greed. It's one of many ways to get one over on your competition. I work for a small business and I own a small business. I don't give away services because of corporations, I do it because I have a lot of competition and I don't have a large reputation to bank on. Ellison can say what he will about "publicity" - marketing is expensive as all shit.

So, lets say that all authors did charge and no books were ever free. How much do you think of that will go to the new(ish/er) author? Rather than to the already established and well known? I think after a few releases by well known authors suck all the air (read: money) from the industry, the free book would reappear.



NOTE: AMAZON KINDLE is NOT free. THE LIBRARY is NOT free.

Amazon Kindle cost $120 per year. Authors get PAID when people read the books.

The cost of the library varies from county to county but my property taxes allocate over $700 a year towards the public library per household. And libraries buy books. Libraries are charged a MUCH larger fee for books than a regular person. A MMPB to a library is not going to be $5.99. It's more likely to be closer $20. Ebooks bought by the library (From TradPub) have a borrow limit. IIRC, its TEN borrows before the library has to replace that book.


Support your local library!!!

Cheap milk isn't actually cheap either, that's subsidies.

Again, it's fine as a marketing campaign, or if you want the first book in a series to be your "loss leader" and cost 99 cents, for example.

The thing is that Amazon and Bookbub and Smashwords (and producers and...) really want your work for free. So, KU is something like 0.0004 cents per page read, and a 400 page book is .0009 cents per page if it's $3.

We're talking more, I think, like what the producer did to Ellison, or what I see frequently with graphic designers, content providers etc. They want it for exposure dollars. That's not okay. Offering something for free is different than being asked to work for free.

I've been lurking in this convo for a while. Feeling guilty that I often use campaigns on Amazon to make my novel free. It's the only way people seem to download it. I think I've made a grand total of $10 since I published it eight years ago. It's always annoyed me that people think nothing of spending $5 for a birthday card, but balk at the idea of spending 99 cents on an ebook.

As for editing, I wish I could afford a professional! I tried to have friends look through mine, but they couldn't do much but point out typos, etc. I had to edit my novel myself and I'm lousy at editing my own work.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. More than a lot of people are willing to spend for an unknown author! I know my thoughts don't really reflect the question posed.

Allison wrote: "Cheap milk isn't actually cheap either, that's subsidies.

Again, it's fine as a marketing campaign, or if you want the first book in a series to be your "loss leader" and cost 99 cents, for exampl..."

Previously, authors and a lot of other artists used to live on subsidies. Patrons of the arts. We don't have that now (unless Patreon), so...

Amazon and Bookbub and Smashwords - IDK what kind of contracts they offer as I do not write. What I can tell you is that most of their stuff is not free for readers.

But, I have heard that getting started on those platforms (plus a few others) is either free or low cost. Where do you think they make their money back? On using you as their loss leader. They still need to get people in the door - they need eyeballs. I don't think the current costs would stay the same if they were not able to put loss leaders in.

Alex wrote: "It's always annoyed me that people think nothing of spending $5 for a birthday card, but balk at the idea of spending 99 cents on an ebook."

I never understand this logic.

The two are not the same and have different uses and intentions. I would never, in my mind, conflate the two. Or coffee.

...but you are equating milk and companies selling books for free?

I'm not sure what you're saying, MrsJ! It sounds like you're arguing that authors shouldn't ever get paid for their books but I know that can't be what you mean because you also say often how you buy things to support people!

My point is that companies or consumers demanding free work is rude, but deciding to do free as marketing (or "free" through mutually beneficial agreements like KU) is just like any other business decision.

Allison wrote: "...but you are equating milk and companies selling books for free?

I'm not sure what you're saying, MrsJ! It sounds like you're arguing that authors shouldn't ever get paid for their books but I k..."

The question is "should Authors give out freebies?" And then it feels as if that goalpost is being moved. It’s the same types of conversations I have with my clients when they want to “what if” me to death.

There is a huge world between "always" and "never." I'm saying that YES, authors should give free books. I'm not saying authors should never be paid. But I am saying they shouldn’t always be paid.

I spend, on average, $400- $600 a year IN CASH on books (ok, just being honest, I go over that quite frequently). And that's not including shipping. OR my Kindle Unlimited sub (+$120). OR my Audible sub (+$180).

But I also get tons and tons and tons of free books. Sometimes more than I can read. And each one of those books - to me - represent an author trying to add their name to my list in the allocation of my book budget. I have so many authors that I currently read that if I was not getting free books, I would rarely pick up new authors. My TBR list is taller than a mountain and I have googads of already purchased books in my home. In print and in ebook. I could stop buying books today and not run out of NEW books to read for close to 20 years. Maybe even the rest of my life (depending on technology).

So, yes, I spend money on books.

But I work for a living. I'm not independently rich. I agonize over the money I spend and I want to make sure I get the biggest bang for my buck. So if its a toss up between NTM authors and one is a TradPub, and I had to buy with no freebies, I’m going for the TradPub. There’s an expectation of quality.

If we include freebies and it’s a toss up between NTM authors and one has a free book, I’m giving the freebie a chance, first. And yes, this does lead to sales. At least, from me. I’ve read one free book/story and gleefully purchased damn near everything else that writer offered (Read: Martha Wells).

I think all authors should have at least one complete story available for free. If it’s a series, a lot of authors have the first book as perma-free. If the author writes standalones, then maybe a short story or a novella. Or maybe they post a serial on their blog.

Of course, these things don’t always have to be free. Some people don’t do perma-free – some do specific promotions which are often superior as it represents a possible lost opportunity for the reader.

Of course, if your name is Harlan Ellison, Stephen King, etc… you live in a different world than, say, a Martha Wells. She’s won a Hugo but I have an ebook copy of her first Murderbot for free. I also have it in HB and audio...but that's because she sold me with a freebie long before Murderbot came out.

That makes way more sense! Thanks for clarifying.

MrsJoseph *grouchy* wrote: "If we include freebies and it’s a toss up between NTM authors and one has a free book, I’m giving the freebie a chance, first. And yes, this does lead to sales. At least, from me. I’ve read one free book/story and gleefully purchased damn near everything else that writer offered (Read: Martha Wells)."

Yes, exactly.

For instance, I read Fonda Lee’s Jade City for free (library) and loved it, so I bought (preordered) Jade War in hardback. Proof: https://www.instagram.com/p/B0RTsy2hUCu/

I read for free How to Invent Everything: A Survival Guide for the Stranded Time Traveller and immediately bought a copy for my 13-year-old cousin, who loved it.

Those are perfect examples from last month alone.

Yes, exactly.

Corporate has made 'free' an ingrained habit. It isn't going away. :)

Even though I've watched it before, it's still a great video excerpt.

When all is said and done, one thing about doing freebies is that if you go into it without any expectations (meaning reviews, follow on paid work; just free) it's fun. Especially if a group of authors does it at the same time. That's really fun!

Different times call for different measures! :) Libraries are closed, there's still online borrowing, and lots of free books. While I still think people in the arts should be paid--all people should be paid-- but with the corona virus, that isn't happening. There is no denying something free can be fun. I'm all for fun. :) That's why I write. :)

"Abundance is great until its valued. Then its practically worthless."

People work, they get paid. It’s the “promo culture” propitiated for eventual sales or “it’s awareness” that have damaged a ton of authors’ chances. And made it harder for those of us who live this to earn without “but xyz did it for free”.

This idea people will only purchase your work for free or $0.99 is unrealistic considering the average novel takes 5-10 years from first word to market. Average the readership, that’s maybe a couple thousand dollars for potential years of development. Divide that by time, and it’s ludicrous. We allow them to think our work is that cheaply made, when we do these unrealistic promotions, especially given the numbers of clicks to higher $$ conversion being horrifyingly low. Despite the few one-in-a-million bestsellers who yell loudly about how it worked. These are outliers. Not indicative of the vast majority.

Want to give a short story? A single chapter? Beauty, just like a sample in a store. Nobody takes a sample bite and expects the baker to bake a full cake for $0.

KU, pay based on pages read, is a better option. At least people pay a subscription, for the privilege. If someone gets your first novel for free, they’re likely going to value your work on a similar lower scale. If they’re paying $xyz/month to read on the platform, that gives your work a better financial value.

I make short fiction based in the same universe for promos of style. Do character studies and release the first chapter. I also do twitch streams, interviews, live readings, podcasts and articles. And yes, I have in-person or virtual appearance rates. I also have cross promotional share rates. Let’s stop allowing people to devalue the most consumed materials in the world, the Arts, please!

I agree. I believe that since so many books are given away, people have come to value them less. Yet hundreds of hours go into writing a novel! Years of our lives and we just throw them out there like the old torn couch with a "Free" sign on it.

I gave my wife a free copy of my book. I don't think she could value it less. It holds the charging cord of her phone down so it doesn't get lost under her pillow.

I have to agree, especially with the time and effort put into writing a novel. If someone spent the same amount of time creating something, you wouldn't take it for free.
I also found that any free work didn't get as much interest as the paid, one person that the free work being free made it seemed rushed or not as good value.

To be frank, this whole debate leaves me stone cold, for the reason I write for the fun of it and not for money. In this litterary world overflowing with millions of new books and hundreds of thousands of authors, only a very few will actually be able to make money out of writing and it won't always be because their books are the best on offer. To cut each other's throat in the hope to make a few sales makes us lose sight of the main reason why we should write: the love of writing and couching new ideas on paper (or on a computer chip).

Sapha wrote: "We allow them to think our work is that cheaply made"

While we bleed money to have at least a half-decent cover image made. Those things cost a lot...