Urban Fantasy discussion

You know the type -- the ones who've got a small but growing group of loved ones, tangle with the local faction leaders and hunt things for a living. I've seen so many that I'm not sure if people still love them or interest is dropping off.

There are a lot who are so similar it's hard to differentiate them. I like more vulnerability and less snarky.

I am not a fan of snarky and never have been. Typically they are the ones in the story who have the least amount of information but want to be head strong.

So you're okay with the type of story, but you'd rather they weren't snarky? That's good news xD I thought people might be getting tired of the story itself, but I can understand the feelings toward snarkiness!

I think they can be real interesting. Its the kind of blokka

Sorry, my computer sent it before i was done -- moving on-- is the Kind of books i like. It really depends on how the author develop the plot and the story. It it does not have a great story behind it, hje

I hate my phone.... Then i give up the story. Thats it :) i give up posting any more with a phone killing my comment

I think the reason that we see it so often is it is a character that many readers relate to. Books that are loved by avid readers are rarely about the girl who makes friends easily and is nice to everyone. I always see the snark or whatever as a defense mechanism.

No, I got tired of them.

I think it depends. It's an archetype. It can be done well or poorly. There's a fine art to it, I think.

There are some writers out there with an ear for good dialogue and the snappy one-liners give a punch to break up dramatic tension. On the other hand, there are writers out there that use the snark as the defining character trait and it draws away from the story.

I think it's like salt. Used right, you barely notice it, but too much and you ruin the soup.

M.A. wrote: "I think it's like salt. Used right, you barely notice it, but too much and you ruin the soup. "

That's it exactly MA - well said.

I'm okay with the type of story,but too much snarkiness is well to0 much. Like M A says, used right you barely notice, ( it adds a little punch), too much and you ruin the soup.

Snark is such a popular trait of UF, but I dislike it for the most part. I find it cliche, overbearing, obnoxious, abrasive, and just frustrating, getting in the way of characters interactions with other people or makes them unlikeable.

M.A. wrote: "I think it's like salt. Used right, you barely notice it, but too much and you ruin the soup.
"

Great analogy

It depends on if it's done well or not. I'm a huge fan of series, and Chess is very snarky (and self-destructive.) However, I didn't care for because I didn't care for the heroine's attitude.

Brittain wrote: "I think the reason that we see it so often is it is a character that many readers relate to. Books that are loved by avid readers are rarely about the girl who makes friends easily and is nice to ..."

I can relate to this sentiment, but I like them sassy. The sassier the better. Doormats are not interesting IMO unless you are a bully in search of one for your own personal use. I like sassy antagonist too. Snark that's well done amuses me very deeply (when I'm enjoying a good book). I think that the biggest problem with snark can be when writers forget to throw in a few humbling moments for their snarky characters as a counterbalance or when the limits of the character's abilities are decimated in an effort to maintain the illusion that the snark is creating inside of the reader's mind, because the story should do that, not the character's big mouth.

Well said Mayko, agree completely. Snarky, cheeky makes me laugh if it's well done

Michelle wrote: "It depends on if it's done well or not. I'm a huge fan of series, and Chess is very snarky (and self-destructive.) However, I didn't care for [bookcover:Magic Bi..."

Chess is snarky but she's not a bitch IMO. The abrasive attitudes I refer to are more those chicks in UF who have such a chip on their shoulder they may as well fall over if the wind blows too hard. They give attitude where it's not needed and just come across as obnoxious.

Mayko wrote: "Brittain wrote: "I think the reason that we see it so often is it is a character that many readers relate to. Books that are loved by avid readers are rarely about the girl who makes friends easil..."

There's no rule that you are either a smart-alek or a doormat. There are plenty of in-betweens for being a decent person.

Erin ~ (It's October, time for creepy books) wrote: "There's no rule that you are either a smart-alek or a doormat. There are plenty of in-betweens for being a decent person."

I prefer it when the character knows that they shouldn't say something but it comes out anyways. To me, that shows that they know what they say can hurt or be seen as aggressive but their mouths are working faster than the filters in their head. Impulsive characters are usually interesting.

Brittain wrote: "Erin ~ (It's October, time for creepy books) wrote: "There's no rule that you are either a smart-alek or a doormat. There are plenty of in-betweens for being a decent person."

I prefer it when the..."

Yep, I'm right there with you on that one. I also love it when the protagonist gets a little snarky right before he/she gives an obnoxious or annoying antagonist a big heaping load of the crap they like to dish out to others right back to them :)


@Erin ~ (It's October, time for creepy books)

No one said there wasn't.

I'm not big on snark if it's an excuse for lazy dialogue writing. But when it's done well (and not overdone), it reads more like cutting wit than snark.

My question is, why is snark so prevalent and popular in UF???

Maybe it's a way to ground the characters in something approaching reality - they're up against a demon from Hell but if they toss off the one-liner everything is somehow more believable? I don't know, but if that's the case, it feels like a cop out on the authors part. Why not embrace the F in UF? Just a thought.

I hear a lot of characters or series described as "snarky" when they're really abrasive - or even abusive. I don't find those fun.

I like it if it's actually funny or clever, and isn't a replacement for a unique character. Someone mentioned Chess from the Downside books. Her snark is a big part of her personality and defense mechanisms, and it's well placed so that her other facets show through.

Thomas wrote: "I'm not big on snark if it's an excuse for lazy dialogue writing. But when it's done well (and not overdone), it reads more like cutting wit than snark.

My question is, why is snark so prevalent a..."

I think a lot of it has to do with the female persona where they have to act tough all the time to try to prove themselves. I know that went through the head of some UF characters I read, especially when police procedurals are involved. They don't feel as accepted as men or say it's a harder time being accdepted so they build up a huge wall, become over-defensive, and are combative too soon in discussions when it's not always warranted. Personally in this day and age I think that's overdone now as the issue isn't as high unless the author is making it worse than it is as an excuse.

Regan wrote: "I hear a lot of characters or series described as "snarky" when they're really abrasive - or even abusive. I don't find those fun.

I like it if it's actually funny or clever, and isn't a replacement for a unique character. Someone mentioned Chess from the Downside books. Her snark is a big part of her personality and defense mechanisms, and it's well placed so that her other facets show through. "


I agree with you points. Personally I like Chess, she makes sense, and she's friendly to those who give her respect.

Regardless of the story, I need an infusion of humorous situations to be worked in. Dreary drama and fight scenes bore the Hell out of me when done over and over again. Break it up a little.

Ed wrote: "Regardless of the story, I need an infusion of humorous situations to be worked in. Dreary drama and fight scenes bore the Hell out of me when done over and over again. Break it up a little."

Good point and I couldn't agree with you more about the humor :) I don't read politically or racially centric types of fiction (at least the ones involving races and politics as they actually exist in RL) because I prefer for an element of humor to be laced throughout whatever tale I chose to read. I am forced to take too much of life seriously to be willing to spend time investing the same amount of studiousness into a work of fiction that I'm reading in the leisure, but that's just my own private preference and not everyone has the same. Plus I find it fun to read some of the same snark that goes running through my head but hardly ever gets past my vocal cords in an environment such as fantasy where everything is not real so no one (who actually exists) gets hurt.

I think it's all about the balance for me. A timely witty/sarcastic monologue or dialogue always amuses me in the middle of a fight scene.

The point about the snark running through your head but not voicing it in the real world is spot on. I mean how many of us haven't had a funny (or not) line or two on the tip of our tongue during a meeting or social event but knew the consequences of saying it wasn't worth the anguish. With the snarky character we get to experience those lines through them sans the consequences.

Jim Butcher

who is one of my favorite writers manages to make not only most of the snark funny but also some of the consequences as well in his Dresden Files series.

Yeah, Dresden for sure. That series is at the top of my list.

For humor, I would also add Anton Strout and his Simon Canderous series. And of course the incredible Nick Pollotta with Bureau 13, Illegal Aliens, and That Darn Squid God.

Thanks. Great suggestions. I'll check them out. Much appreciated.

Glad to help!

Ed wrote: "For humor, I would also add Anton Strout and his Simon Canderous series. And of course the incredible Nick Pollotta with Bureau 13, Illegal Aliens, and That Darn Squid God."

I have been planning to add Strout to my to read list but haven't heard of Pollotta before now so thanks for the reco :)

Ed wrote: "Regardless of the story, I need an infusion of humorous situations to be worked in. Dreary drama and fight scenes bore the Hell out of me when done over and over again. Break it up a little."

I agree on that. Even in dark, serious books, a bit of humor thrown in can really improve the moments and story.

I sincerely hope authors take note of this.

I absolutely enjoy snarky characters BUT if they're somewhat sullen. When they talk too much, it can get annoying; but if they drop a good, dark-humored phrase now and then, like they talk only when they can't stand the others' stupidity - that's perfect. It's a rough example, but I think you know what I mean. (Sparhawk is one of those, I believe)

Erin (*is in a reviewing slump*) wrote: "I agree on that. Even in dark, serious books, a bit of humor thrown in can really improve the moments and story."

when I was writing my book, I had to remind myself that even dark humor is not acceptable in sad scenes. I don't know how perverted my brain is, I just can't stop :D

The only thing I absolutely can't stand is if the character's humor is based on his self-awareness.

I don't specifically have a problem with them, but I get really excited if I open a book and the character isn't a bounty hunter, P.I. or detective of some variety. It makes me think the author is trying a little harder not to make cut and paste UF.

Jeffery wrote: "I don't specifically have a problem with them, but I get really excited if I open a book and the character isn't a bounty hunter, P.I. or detective of some variety. It makes me think the author is ..."

Any recommendations? I can't remember any series I've read since Sookie that didn't have a hunter type MC. It is starting to get old.

I like a little bit of snark, but it can't define the character. I want to know what's under that crispy, cranky, wise cracking outer shell. I feel like I need to know the truth of a character and the vulnerable bits that they go out of their way to hide before I can love them, or even really care about them. Sometimes snark is good for the soul, but without multi-faceted character development, it falls flat.

I like quick wit, and good dialogue. I get sick of whining characters. It seems like in a lot of UF there is a character whining about there lot in life. When those characters become snarky and abrasive I don't enjoy it. A good rapid fire wit, tongue and cheek character is always fun.

I’ve never been very fond of the 20ish, kickass monster hunter with the perfect body, who can slay both men and monster with her knife like tongue but still weep because the boys she wants doesn’t like here and life is just so unfair. They just don’t seem very real, or at least not people I’d actually like. Not that some writers can’t change my mind and I tend to love UF in all it's forms when it’s done well. I guess that’s why I ended up writing about a 30 year old with a normal career and a self-deprecating sense of humour, although that might also have just been me showing my age. Like other people have been saying it would be really great to see a bit more diversity and character with some real depth and emotional range.

whether it's snarky or not, urban fantasy has to have some humor to provide self-awareness and a sense of proportion.

Barbara (sbear) wrote: "whether it's snarky or not, urban fantasy has to have some humor to provide self-awareness and a sense of proportion."

I would say this is true for any story.