Readers and Reading discussion

Article by Lev Grossman: Good Books Don't Have to be Hard

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001...

Lots to think about.

Thanks for posting this, JoAnn. I stand proudly with those who like plot driven novels as opposed to the "rhetorically obscure" ones. Of course, I also expect finely drawn characters and a flair for language, but that's not asking too much, is it? Maybe that's why I like Dickens. Good stories, not hard to follow and still plenty to think about.

Marcy wrote: "Thanks for posting this, JoAnn. I stand proudly with those who like plot driven novels as opposed to the "rhetorically obscure" ones. ."

You included a phrase from my favorite part of this article, where Grossman said

We were trained—by the Modernists, who else—to expect a literary revolution to be a revolution of the avant-garde: typographically altered, grammatically shattered, rhetorically obscure. Difficult, in a word.

I strongly hold to "a basic belief that plot and literary intelligence aren't mutually exclusive."

I really like part of one of the comments at the WSJ site...one reader said "Good movies are judged by their leanness, usually. That is, there is a reason for everything that happens, for every shot, every line, every action. Yet characters that do things are much more interesting to watch--words are not enough. And the same is true of a good book."

I don't care for writers who make their work deliberately opaque with the notion that being abstruse makes their work literary.

It brings to mind the exchange between Oprah and Toni Morrison regarding her book Paradise.


Winfrey recalls: "I called up Toni Morrison and I said, 'Do people tell you they have to keep going over the words sometimes?' and she said, 'That, my dear, is called reading'"

http://www.oprah.com/article/omagazin...
Morrison on reading. I understand and agree with her article. However, I'm not a big fan of her books.

I think Toni Morrison thinks she is better than everyone else. I cannot stand her or her writing.

"Beloved" is on the list of reading for my son's 11th grade English class. Some books they won't get to, and I hope that's one of them. I couldn't agree more with your comments, JoAnn. I read "Song of Solomon" and I thought it was the phoniest thing going. Just false; studied; calculated--not lived; and, in its weird way, posing, from start to finish, deserving the summation Mary McCarthy once applied (to her regret) to Lillian Hellman's writing -- every word is a lie, including a and the.

JoAnn/QuAppelle wrote: "I think Toni Morrison thinks she is better than everyone else. I cannot stand her or her writing."

Michael wrote: ""Beloved" is on the list of reading for my son's 11th grade English class. Some books they won't get to, and I hope that's one of them. I couldn't agree more with your comments, JoAnn. I read "Song of Solomon" and I thought it was the phoniest thing going. Just false; studied; calculated--not lived; and, in its weird way, posing, from start to finish..."

"posing" and "calculated" are good words to describe the writing AND this author, Michael.

I don't mind Toni Morrison but she uses a lot of symbolism and can be hard to understand! the movie Beloved helped explain the book..well, a bit LOL.

Thomas, welcome to Readers and Reading. Could you tell us the kind of (more) recent books that interest you?

Thrillers? historical fiction? Sci-fi? ????

Is there anything from our end of the month lists that appeal to you?

Thomas wrote: "I think this article addresses some of the problems I've been having with my reading habits. You see, I've tried collecting a bunch of classics, because I felt that more recent literature just wasn..."

Thomas, there is a website that I'm able to access through my Library called NOVELIST. One of the things it does is let you put in what subjects you'd like to read about, and then delivers a list for your consideration.......You could put in "Female Detectives + Florida, or "Pioneers + 1880's" for example. Check to see if your Library has this service available. Plus, we'll help you here if we can!

Happy Reading!
Donna in Southern Maryland

Thomas wrote: "I think this article addresses some of the problems I've been having with my reading habits. You see, I've tried collecting a bunch of classics, because I felt that more recent literature just wasn..."

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I have found reading classics with a group to be a huge help and quite enjoyable.

GoodReads has such a group.

http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/1...

Why have you arrived at reading as a beginner, so to speak, Thomas? And, if that is true, you probably shouldn't start with the classics - most of us worked up to them after years of reading Nancy Drew and The Hardy Boys.

There are a lot of really good modern authors out there. I just go to the bookstore and start reading the backs of books and first pages. If I want to continue reading, then I buy the book :) This would work at the library as well. Read first pages - if you like what's going on, then read the whole book. Let your mind wander - there are no rules about what we can read or can't read. And then report back here!

None of your books seem like beginner books :)

Right now I'd recommend The Kite Runner by Khaled Hosseini as a really good book that should definitely keep your interest.

Just a note about classics & help reading them. I find that if i read the first few pages aloud, i pick up the cadence of the writing faster & the work begins to "click" for me. IF it doesn't happen, then i have no qualms about putting it aside for now. Some author's writing i never comprehend & have given up.

Regardless, good luck in your search for good material. There is much out there to savor!

deborah

Thomas, a book you might enjoy is The Power of One, I've found it to have universal appeal and my adult sons loved Pillars of the Earth. Neither are new releases but both are readily available.

I find that nowadays I can't tolerate classics. I use to enjoy them when I was younger but not anymore. I've tried several times to diversify but at the end getting so frustrated n to finish a book is so agonizing. But I'm not giving up just yet, it's just difficult that's all. To me it's more due to the language. I find it so hard to digest compare to when I was in school. Maybe my brain cells are growing apart faster than I care to admit lol. But I know there r great treasure in classics. Is pillars of the earth consider as classic? O dear, I hv that - gift fr DH hv yet to tackle :0

Know what you mean I tried reading Bleak House after watching the DVD. Bad idea. The reading was a total sloggish. Also tried reading Little Dorrit, that was good at first but then it became depressing, who needs depressing right. Les Miserables was good. Anna Karenina is good as well. Just give yourself at least 5 to 10 minutes a day to read it especially if it is 500plus pages long. A little bit a day may help you get through your reading.

Re classics--Some books are called classics, but if no one reads them voluntarily can they really be said to be books that stand the test of time? That's what a classic is supposed to be. I find that very few of the books called classics really do stand the test of time. They were books for their time, not ours.

Pillars of the Earth is a book written by a contemporary author who also writes thrillers. The language he uses is contemporary and some of the characters are really wonderful. But it is very long. You should also know that there's a sequel.

Re classics: We're having the 'what is a classic' problem now at the library. A teacher wants all her 5th graders to read a 'classic' but never gave them a list or even a definition of what she meant by that term. We hand out Tom Sawyer, Black Beauty, Secret Garden and Newbery winners. In a few more years will Harry Potter qualify as a classic, I wonder? The first HP was published before most of these kids were born.

Re obscure 'literary' writing: I loved a little book called A Reader's Manifesto: An Attack on the Growing Pretentiousness in American Literary Prose which I read soon after my Bk Discussion group at work read All the Pretty Horses by McCarthy. We all hated Pretty Horses despite the awards and many glowing reviews, mainly because of his *peculiar* writing style with no quotes, lots of phrases rather than real sentences, & so on. I found that what was said in the Manifesto was so apt for what I felt about McCarthy's book.

I think the word classic is a subjective one. What is one person's classic, is another person just wanting to read it. I don't get when they banned books for their suggestive connotations, I think people should have a chance to read books to truly see for themselves if the book is alright or not, We do not want Farenheit 451 happening in our time.

Sandra wrote:
Re obscure 'literary' writing: I loved a little book called A Reader's Manifesto: An Attack on the Growing Pretentiousness in American Literary Prose which I read soon after my Bk Discussion group at work read All the Pretty Horses by McCarthy. We all hated Pretty Horses despite the awards and many glowing reviews, mainly because of his *peculiar* writing style with no quotes, lots of phrases rather than real sentences, & so on. I found that what was said in the Manifesto was so apt for what I felt about McCarthy's book. ."

I feel this way about so many of the "in" books...pretentious is a good way to describe them

I don't like books that makes the author look so clever, and the reader going huh? while scratching their head. Their are esoteric writing, etc. I don't like pretentious either.

Since the object of writing is to communicate, deliberately being obscure and failing to communicate to most readers seems counter-productive to me. James Joyce was the one who started that trend. It seems to me that writers of that sort want their work to be dissected in universities. It's a corpse that gets dissected. Living literature that's loved and cherished by all who read it, doesn't need to be dissected to be understood. Of course you can study Louisa May Alcott, but you don't need to analyze Little Women to understand it. Alcott wrote stories that have universal appeal and have touched people's hearts for generations. Now that's a true classic.

Shomeret wrote: "Since the object of writing is to communicate, deliberately being obscure and failing to communicate to most readers seems counter-productive to me. James Joyce was the one who started that trend...."

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Good post, Shomeret. I wish Toni Morrison felt the same way.

ditto, Alias.

I despise the deliberately obscure writing that tries to pass itself off as "smart". Boo hiss!

Shomeret wrote: "It seems to me that writers of that sort want their work to be dissected in universities. It's a corpse that gets dissected. Living literature that's loved and cherished by all who read it, doesn't need to be dissected to be understood.."

Bravo!!!

I have probably posted this Amy Tan article before, wherin she talks about "considerable and sometimes outrageous speculation from students and professors alike about literary significance, symbolism and author intention."

but it bears repeating:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article...

I like your pathology play on words, the corpse that needs to be dissected. yeh gawds, if ever that opened my eyes wide, that was a good play on words Shomeret.

I just finished Still Missing by Chevy Stevens...... Holy Shmoly it was a great page turner if anyone is looking for a quick read that will make your skin crawl.

Robin wrote: "I like your pathology play on words, the corpse that needs to be dissected. yeh gawds, if ever that opened my eyes wide, that was a good play on words Shomeret."

Thank you, Robin. What opened my eyes was spending my time to analyze some of these highly regarded works of contemporary fiction and discovering that they weren't saying anything especially brilliant. There were no special insights. I now suspect that many "literary writers" choose to write their novels in an inaccessible way to conceal the fact that they really have nothing interesting to say.

Shomeret wrote: "I now suspect that many "literary writers" choose to write their novels in an inaccessible way to conceal the fact that they really have nothing interesting to say. ..."

Every time you post, I like what you say more and more!!!

It is very thought provoking ,Thanks Shomeret, ditto with JoAnn by the way, JoAnn what does QuAppelle signify.

Robin wrote: "It is very thought provoking ,Thanks Shomeret, ditto with JoAnn by the way, JoAnn what does QuAppelle signify."

Gee, Robin, I never saw this post from two months ago! Sorry for not responding. I was trying to figure out a screen name 15 years ago and every one kept getting rejected. So I opened the "Q" volume of the encyclopedia and pointed to an entry.

QuAppelle is in Canada, and this summer my cousin was motoring along on a read trip and saw a sign pointing the way to QUAPPELLE. She took a photo and sent it to me.

Qu'Appelle means "who is called". e.g. Je suis la femme qu'appelle Shomeret". This means I am the woman who is called Shomeret.

I knew no French when I chose my screen name. Then someone told me about the legend of the Qu'Appelle Valley

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-le...

That is a lovely poem, JoAnn.

JoAnn/QuAppelle wrote: "I knew no French when I chose my screen name. Then someone told me about the legend of the Qu'Appelle Valley

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-le..."

A beautiful poem, and heartbreaking.

That was a great poem. =)~

This has me overwrought! GRRRR

http://chronicle.com/article/article-...

ESL students do need help. In one of my classes an ESL student asked for someone else in the class to read her papers before she submitted them and give her feedback on her English. She wasn't asking anyone to write her papers for her, she just didn't want to submit papers that looked unprofessional and embarrassing. I think that would be the correct approach for an ESL student to take. Though a better one would be to hire an ESL instructor to help her. I know an ESL instructor at a local college who spends many hours outside of class, helping her students with their papers for other classes.

Shomeret wrote: "ESL students do need help..."

I agree...but what they should not be doing is paying someone $2,000 to write their papers for them!

Shomeret wrote: "ESL students do need help. In one of my classes an ESL student asked for someone else in the class to read her papers before she submitted them and give her feedback on her English. She wasn't as..."
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On occasion, I help an ESL student. She is a friend, so I don't charge her. I don't write her papers for her, but I try to help her untangle her ideas and write coherent English. When we began a year or so ago, I would guess she was at a second grade reading level. Now I would say she is at at a 4th grade level.

I'll often find it's helpful just to talk with her and get her ideas on the topic she needs to write about. I then say, that's great, write that ! Just talking with her helps her to organize her thoughts. Sometimes, I read one of her sentences back to her and ask does that sound correct? What are you trying to say? This really helps her a lot.

Now at school she is working on the basics of an essay. Intro, 3 paragraphs and a conclusion.

Sometimes for homework, she has to read a chapter from a novel. She will read it out loud to me, and when we come to words she doesn't know I'll explain them. And she will write down what I say. She does use a dictionary a lot, but sometimes she can't understand the dictionary definition.

The Internet is a great help. I've printed out lots of worksheets for her to study. Sometimes we work on them together, other times she does it on her own and then we correct them together.

The Internet has a lot of homeschooling sites and teacher sites that have a lot of these helpful worksheets for free.

Learning a new language as an adult is not easy and I give her a lot of credit for trying.

Article about Amazon. Disturbing.

http://www.bostonreview.net/BR35.6/ro...

from that article

<<>>

and this:
<<>>

Now I know why Amazon recommendations can be so off-base. I rarely even look at my recommendations there. The books I buy on Amazon were usually recommended elsewhere--mostly Goodreads these days.

If I want a book and Amazon has removed the buy button, they've lost a sale. I can still buy books directly from the publisher, and I have.

I have to say Amazon has been a huge help to me. I love the ability to easily look up a book, read reviews etc. I often look at the similar book list they provide and find it helpful. I also love the discounts !

Alias Reader wrote: "I have to say Amazon has been a huge help to me. I love the ability to easily look up a book, read reviews etc. I often look at the similar book list they provide and find it helpful..."

I agree.

I wonder how many people who despise evil U.S. corporations support Amazon?

I do go to Amazon to look at a book if there is little to no information about it on Goodreads. So Amazon is very useful to me too. But they aren't my sole source of books, so if they're going to do things like removing buy buttons from books that I want, that tactic is going to backfire with me.

I loved this critique of the memoir-writing genre:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/boo...

JoAnn/QuAppelle wrote: "I loved this critique of the memoir-writing genre:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/boo..."

Excellent! But who will listen?

Carolyn (in SC) C234D wrote: "JoAnn/QuAppelle wrote: "I loved this critique of the memoir-writing genre:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/boo..."

Excellent! But who will listen..."

Surely no one who thinks they have yet another boring story to tell !!!

My favorite line in the article "Sorry to be so harsh, but this flood just has to be stopped. We don’t have that many trees left. "