Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

I've read so many fantasy novels where the whole plot is "an ancient evil returns". The characters spend the entire book either discovering evidence to convince others about the return of something, or searching for some item to defeat the evil before it awakens. And then finally defeating or locking away the evil at the end of the trilogy.

Are there any fantasy novels where the evil actually does something? Or there's some sort of real threat?

Tad William's Shadowmarch series comes to mind. His endings are always surprising.

Matthew wrote: " the whole plot is "an ancient evil returns"."

No suggestions at the moment - but by the Gods, I sympathise!

Well I guess it is where you draw the line. A book where evil never gets defeated won't sell so I suppose your best bet is something like the Harry Potter titles where evil gets awoken and then mucks about aimlessly for ages giving the good guys time to piece together whatever artefact is needed to kill them.

Matthew wrote: "I've read so many fantasy novels where the whole plot is "an ancient evil returns". ..."

Right on! This reminds me of my old headmaster (Peter Pillock, if you are reading this, **** off you pitiful little man)

Seriously, on the other hand, this is a heavily over-used trope. I am tempted to blame Tolkien-imitators, but in truth the trope is older than that (Poe, for a start!) and there have always been imitators - not least because using an established trope or traditional story-base or stereotype characters can be useful starting points, saving a lot of explanations and worldbuilding - the key to a decent book is how you develop from there; and if you stick with the trope and the stereotypes, then you don't have a very good book. Development is all!
Comments??

Hmm, I would say that Tolkien defies that trope. In LOTR the evil had already awoken. War is raging across the lands and the heroes are racing to destroy and item that Sauron needs.

Thought of another book series: The Legend of Drizzt. First book is Homeland. The whole society of Drow are evil and Drizzt is trying to escape is heritage.

Not sure if you're looking for fantasy where the evil awakens and destroys the world, or if you're looking for fantasy that doesn't rely on an ancient evil at all.

The better twist is the Ancient Evil that the hero accidentally releases or invokes. A great example of this would be WIZARD OF EARTHSEA; the Bartimaeus trilogy also does this to some extent.

John Morressy wrote several books with this theme that were good. Graymantle goes with Ironbrand & then The Time of the Annihilator. Evil comes, they fight, partial win, more fighting. I won't tell you how it comes out.

Raymond E. Feist's Magician: Apprentice is the first of 4 books that discuss an evil like this. It's best to read the first 2 & then the Empire trilogy he did with Janny Wurts then the last 2. The nature of the enemy becomes clear & it ends. The evil does do stuff, although not much directly until the last book.

G33z3r wrote: "Not sure if you're looking for fantasy where the evil awakens and destroys the world, or if you're looking for fantasy that doesn't rely on an ancient evil at all."

G33z3r wrote: "Not sure if you're looking for fantasy where the evil awakens and destroys the world, or if you're looking for fantasy that doesn't rely on an ancient evil at all."

Rather a book that if the evil awakens at least it -does- something. No more of this travel from village to village hearing whispered rumors, or get to the end of the book and "Oh no! The 6th seal has broken, only 5 more seals hold him in place!"

Right. In LOTR the evil has awakened, and there's battles, and everyone in the story is aware of the problem.
There's none of this "how to I convince the king's chancellor who is secretly in league with the anicent evil"

I've read Feist's Magician books along time ago. They were okay, but a bit pedantic.

I've read some of those Tad Williams books, but they're so huge by the time you're done with them you've forgotten what happened.

Two of the authors I like in fantasy deal with this. Mercedes Lackey in her Valdemar books, especially in The Mage Windstrilogy. Not exactly a character, but it starts with an ancient evil that has long since been dispatched. Then, that evil returns through other means, and wreaks all kinds of havoc. The trilogy ties back to some of the "earlier" trilogies and duologies, But the this trilogy is good all by itself.

The other one is Elizabeth Moon's "The Deed of Paksenarrion". (Can't get the link to work for some reason.) This one has an active evil that constantly challenges the protagonist throughout the book. The heroine is looking for ways to win against the evil, and goes through quite a few tough times because of it.

Matthew wrote: "I've read so many fantasy novels where the whole plot is "an ancient evil returns". The characters spend the entire book either discovering evidence to convince others about the return of something..."

The "evil awakens" part of the trope is fine. But the "evil kind of sits around doing nothing while the heroes find evidence" part of the trope is lame.

Antagonists should be active agents, on the offensive, taking direct measures to keep the heroes off balance.

I want the heroes to succeed because of their wits, abilities, and initiative. Not because of the stupidity or sloth of their opponent.

This means even in books that do not feature the antagonist's POV, the author should think through what the antagonist is doing at every moment, how the antagonist reacts to each major event in the novel, and what concrete steps the antagonist is taking to achieve its goals.

Hmm, the Belgariad and the Mallorean by David Eddings has an evil god that they are fighting against. He definitely is doing stuff, and his agents are busy little bees also.

Michele wrote: "Hmm, the Belgariad and the Mallorean by David Eddings has an evil god that they are fighting against. He definitely is doing stuff, and his agents are busy little bees also."

I thought about Eddings right after I hit "post", but could not recall which of the series it was. And, I admit, I tend to prefer the Crystal Throne series because of Faran, so more of those details stand out.

So..., you want Hitler in 1933 rather than Ayn Rand in 2014? :}

Teresa Frohock's Miserere: An Autumn Tale certainly has the evil doing stuff.

Peter S. Beagle's The Last Unicorn and Ursula K. Le Guin's A Wizard of Earthsea have respectively an Evil Overlord and an unleashed evil spirit.

But, in The Last Unicorn, the evil is not actively participating in the work. That one is more of trying to solve a mystery, not overcome an evil. The only two places where evil really step forward is in the village - and that is self contained, or when the party finally reaches the castle. Again, the evil is not out marauding. Though, I guess you could say that one evil is keeping another one in check.

Well, it DID go out marauding -- (view spoiler)[that's why there are no other unicorns. (hide spoiler)] So it did evil -- and now it can sit at home and keep its evil stabilized.

But yeah, there's a difference between a conquering evil and a triumphant one, sitting on its throne.

Mary wrote: "Well, it DID go out marauding -- [spoilers removed] So it did evil -- and now it can sit at home and keep its evil stabilized."

*snicker* Drinking its evil tea and waiting for perhaps another time to go out and do evil things - bad guys have to rest, too!

I think the advantage to an evil that is merely awakening, is (at least from all the ones I recall) normally those types of evils are destroy-the-world-immediately-and-no-one-can-stop-them-once-they're-awake kind of things. So if they DID awaken/get released/whatever, the world would end, and the book would end pretty much there.

Overused? Yes. Totally. And I think it's also an easy way out of having an entity/person that is so completely evil and heartless, and yet not actually having to write in their horrible acts. To make the story not so dark.

There is also a trend (more viewable in the movies) where, so as not to offend -anybody-, the villains are made as generic as possible. Like in EDGE OF TOMORROW, this past season's Tom Cruise flick. He gets to fight robot invaders, not Asians, Afghans, black people, brown people -- anybody who might buy a movie ticket.

Brenda wrote: "There is also a trend (more viewable in the movies) where, so as not to offend -anybody-, the villains are made as generic as possible. Like in EDGE OF TOMORROW, this past season's Tom Cruise flick..."

Hah, so true, Brenda. Even the military has 'Zombie Apocalypse' drills so they won't offend any one nationality. And look at North Korea's reaction over Seth Rogan's movie.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10...

I will say that the Army is quite broadminded about enemies. My daughter (in ROTC) once had charge of being the native villagers in a training scenario. She wrote anti-American graffiti on the 'village' walls in Spanish and Arabic, being trilingual. And she insisted that the cadets eat the exotic native cuisine, on pain of offending the local hospitality. She went shopping and bought strained-peas baby food for this.

K. wrote: "But, in The Last Unicorn, the evil is not actively participating in the work. That one is more of trying to solve a mystery, not overcome an evil."

That's one of the things I love about The Last Unicorn. I also like your analysis of one evil holding another in check.

John wrote: "K. wrote: "But, in The Last Unicorn, the evil is not actively participating in the work. That one is more of trying to solve a mystery, not overcome an evil."

That's one of the things I love abou..."

Even when I read through the book and watched the movie again, I couldn't really tell if Hagrid was keeping the Bull in check, or the Bull had trapped Hagrid. Either way, the village was trapped, however by their own evil and greed. They couldn't wander far, or something nasty would happen, if I remember right.