THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

This thread is open for members who wish to read and discuss any book or books covering a weapon of the Second World War.

Since it's November 1st over in Australia I have started my theme read which is on Stuka's. I found this bit of information in regards to dive-bombing attacks against shipping interesting and figured I'd share the details:

"In their diving attacks the Stuka pilot's usually adopted method was to dive as steeply as possible, and sometimes at up to 90°, towards the stern of the ship. At around 1,500ft the angle was decreased to 45° and the pilot's Revi gunsight was lined up on the target ship's stern as the pilot fired his twin forward 7.92mm MG 17 machine guns, mounted one in each wing. Gradually, the hail of bullets would move along the length of the ship and when the pilot saw them striking the water ahead of the ship's bow, the bombs were released. In this way, the machine-gun fire was an aid to sighting the bombs and had the additional effect of keeping down the heads of any would-be defenders who might be firing back."

During the first Stuka raid against the British harbour of Portland, Leading Seaman Jack Mantle won his VC, apparently only the second VC ever to be won for actions on English soil:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_For...

http://www.victoriacross.org.uk/bbman...

Stuka Attack!: The Dive-Bombing Assault on England During the Battle of Britain by Andy Saunders

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Since it's November 1st over in Australia I have started my theme read which is on Stuka's. I found this bit of information in regards to dive-bombing attacks against shipping interesting and figur..."

That's interesting, AR. Divebombing ops certainly changed the nature of war in WW II. I picked this up several years ago on the subject of Stukas:

Stukas Over Steppe: The Blitzkrieg in the East, 1941-1945 by Peter C. Smith

It has some very good photos.

I love pictures of the Stuka in action. I have copies of these two books which have some great photographs and information:


Stuka at War by Peter C. Smith

Junkers Ju87 Stuka by Peter C. Smith

It's one minute after 12.00 on the west coast so I'm starting to read William Green's Rocket Fighter which has been sitting on my shelf for far too long!

I am flying over the Mediterranean with Stringbags in Action: The Attack on Taranto 1940 & the Loss of the Bismarck 1941.

Allan wrote: "It's one minute after 12.00 on the west coast so I'm starting to read William Green's Rocket Fighter which has been sitting on my shelf for far too long!"

Look at The History Channel show "Dogfights: Secret Weapons" which is now on Youtube also, as well as the The History Channel website archive. I was a guest historian on the Komet with my friends historian Barrett Tillman and the late Bubi Glogner, who was a Komet pilot with the only Mosquito kill.

I am just starting my November read --

Little Ship, Big War: The Saga of DE343 by Edward Stafford

It is the story of the WW II ops of the USS ABERCROMBIE (DE-343). ABERCROMBIE was named in honor of Ensign William Warner Abercrombie of Kansas City. Abercrombie perished at the controls of a Douglas Devastator torpedo bomber during the attack of Torpedo Squadron Eight on the Japanese carrier force north of Midway Island on June 4, 1942. Torpedo Eight's fifteen Devastators encountered fifty Japanese Zero fighters during the attack. The Devastators had to close to a range of 1,000 yards (½ nautical mile) at an altitude of 100 feet to drop their torpedoes. A Devastator at full throttle, and it couldn't drop its torpedo at full throttle, could make about 160 knots; a Zero about 300 knots. As Stafford put it: “It was a fatally unequal fight.”

One after another, the Devastators began to go down.

The aggressive, determined squadron commander (LCDR John C. Waldron) himself, leading the formation, had been one of the first to go. He was last seen standing upright in his flaming cockpit as his Devastator slammed into the sea...No one would have blamed them if the remaining pilots had jettisoned their torpedoes and tried to run for home. Not one did. Not one even dropped his torpedo at long range and turned away. Every Torpedo Eight pilot pressed the attack as long as he was alive and his plane could fly...Not one plane returned to the Hornet. Of the thirty young men who took off that morning, only one survived.

Ensign Abercrombie was awarded the Navy Cross posthumously.

Great story of some very brave men Manray9, thanks for sharing the details.

Your book on the Me 163 Komet looks good as well Allan. I read this book on the subject which I really enjoyed:

Top Secret Bird: The Luftwaffe's Me 163 Comet by Wolfgang Spate

I am going to read Intrepid: The Epic Story of America's Most Legendary Warship for this BR.

Looks like an excellent book for the theme read Mike, I will be keen to hear your thoughts on the book plus any interesting stories you come across.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Your book on the Me 163 Komet looks good as well Allan. I read this book on the subject which I really enjoyed:

[book:Top Secret B..."

I knew Spate and interviewed him, very intelligent man.

I've had this and been meaning to read it for awhile. This
thread is the perfect inspiration:


88 mm FlaK 18/36/37/41 and PaK 43 1936-45

Good to hear Carl, it should be a good book.

The author of my book on the Stuka's mentions the finding of a German Me 109 pilot, Lt Helmut Strobl (5/JG27), sometime after the end of the war:

http://www.archaeologyuk.org/ba/ba75/...

Here is a newspaper article that mentions Corporal Josephine Robins, amongst others, who was awarded a Military Medal for bravery during a Stuka attack on a RAF base during the Battle of Britain:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/artic...

London Gazette, 20 December 1940:

"Corporal Robins was in a dug-out which received a direct hit during an intense enemy bombing raid. A number of men were killed and two seriously injured. Though dust and fumes filled the shelter, Corporal Robins immediately went to the assistance of the wounded and rendered first aid. While they were being removed from the demolished dug-out, she fetched a stretcher and stayed with the wounded until they were evacuated. She displayed courage and coolness of a very high order in a position of extreme danger."

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The author of my book on the Stuka's mentions the finding of a German Me 109 pilot, Lt Helmut Strobl (5/JG27), sometime after the end of the war:

http://www.archaeologyuk.org/ba/ba75/..."

A bit gruesome.

During the author's research for his book on Stuka attacks against England he received this reply from a German pilot who was shot down and captured:

"I'm afraid I can't help you with information. All I can say is that I flew to England with many other Germans on 15 August 1940. Unfortunately, we were not tourists and the main difference was that we were carrying bombs, not suitcases. A Hurricane pilot evidently didn't like me carrying bombs to the UK and shot me down - which I can understand entirely. So, I spent the rest of the war as a guest of His Majesty."

Who said Germans don't have a sense of humour!

Intrepid: The Epic Story of America's Most Legendary Warship is a gripping story, gets right to the action. The Intrepid's WWII battles cover the first 160 pages of the book. The ship was in the thick of it. Here is an excerpt from Nov 1944, off the Phillippine Islands supporting MacArthur's forces.

A kamikaze has already hit the flight deck and caused major casualties. But the crews are fighting the fires and think the ship can be back in action shortly. Until another one shows up…

(view spoiler)[ Topside, the gunners scored a hit on one of the incoming kamikazes. Shedding pieces, the Zero spun out of control and smacked into the water, leaving a tall geyser.

The other kept coming. For the moment, Intrepid’s hard evasive turn to starboard prevented the port guns from training on target. Still, the Zero was taking hits from the 40-mm Bofors gun and from all the starboard and aft 20-mm short-range guns.

Somehow it kept flying.

The Japanese pilot was possessed of fanatical skill and a hefty dose of luck A thousand yards from Intrepid’s port flank, he executed the classic kamikaze attack maneuver—a sharp pitch up, then a rolling dive back to his target. While plunging toward Intrepid’s deck, he released his 550-pound bomb and opened up with his 20-mm guns. His guns were still firing when he smashed into the already burning teak flight deck.

Most of the Zero’s flaming hulk—with its pilot—careened down the flight deck, mowing down every object in its path. The 550 pound bomb, separated from the Zero, punched through Intrepid’s flight deck only a few yards aft of where the first kamikaze struck six minutes earlier. The bomb penetrated the gallery deck, ricocheted off the armored hangar deck, then hurtled forward to where firefighters were battling the blaze from the first kamikaze and exploded.

The devastation was immediate and spectacular. Lieutenant DiMarzo and the crew of Repair One died instantly. Nearly every remaining airplane in the hangar bay burst into flame. The ship rocked with secondary explosions. Fuel and ordnance began detonating like land mines, flinging shrapnel into bulkheads, mowing down the few men still standing. (hide spoiler)]

That's a gripping account of a kamikaze attack, I will have to check this book out I think Mike! Thanks for the post, great story.

I actually have this book yet to read which is sort of related to your book Mike:


by Gregory G. Fletcher

Another story of interest is Gun Tub 10. Manned by African-American stewards who, according to existing Navy rules, were not supposed to be in combat positions. However, the Intrepid's captain was willing to use every man who wanted to fight so Alonzo Swann and his buddies are manning the 20mm Oerlikon AAA. The actual story is really well-told but here is a sadder aspect of the times (finally corrected 49 years later):
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/31...

That's an amazing story about his survival when nine others died and he was back in the fight in a month, he certainly deserved the medal he was nominated for, shame about the time lapse eh!

Mike wrote: "Another story of interest is Gun Tub 10. Manned by African-American stewards who, according to existing Navy rules, were not supposed to be in combat positions. However, the Intrepid's captain was ..."

Too many such stories from WW II. I guess late is better than never.

That's true Manray9!

Manray9 wrote: "Too many such stories from WW II. I guess late is better than never...."

Too many stories is right. Should not have taken so long or been so difficult to redress.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "During the author's research for his book on Stuka attacks against England he received this reply from a German pilot who was shot down and captured:

"I'm afraid I can't help you with information...."

That is a cracker Rick.

Mike wrote: "Intrepid: The Epic Story of America's Most Legendary Warship is a gripping story, gets right to the action. The Intrepid's WWII battles cover the first 160 pages of the book. The shi..."

Perhaps you already know but the Intrepid aircraft carrier is on view in New York City harbor. It's a most interesting and unique museum!

www.intrepidmuseum.org

From my November theme book --

Little Ship, Big War: The Saga of DE343 by Edward Stafford

In considering a naval vessel as a weapons system, Stafford discusses activities at the naval base at Seeadler Harbor of Manus Island in the Admiralty Islands. Support services there were provided to his ship, USS ABERCROMBIE (DE-343), by USS SIERRA (AD-18), a DIXIE-class destroyer tender launched at Tampa in February 1943. When I served aboard USS DEYO (DD-989) in Charleston in the early eighties our base tender was the same USS SIERRA. She made her last deployment to the Mediterranean in 1992 and was decommissioned in 1993 after fifty years of active service. They don't build 'em like that anymore.

Here's a pic of the old lady:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2457/37...

Nice picture Manray9 and great information about the USS SIERRA, she certainly served her time!

In my current book about Stuka's the author mentions how the only VC won by RAF Fighter Command was award for actions during a Stuka raid near Southhampton:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Br...

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "In my current book about Stuka's the author mentions how the only VC won by RAF Fighter Command was award for actions during a Stuka raid near Southhampton:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bri..."

I am surprised RAF Fighter Command received only one VC!

It does seem quite odd doesn't it, I suppose the nature of fighter combat sometimes does not always leave many, if any, witnesses to acts of supreme bravery.

Another episode of note from my book --

Little Ship, Big War: The Saga of DE343 by Edward Stafford.

Stafford and USS ABERCROMBIE (DE-343) were present in Seeadler Harbor of Manus island on 10 November 1944 when the ammo ship USS MOUNT HOOD (AE-11) blew up. Nobody knows why. She was carrying about 4,000 tons of ordnance. The explosion obliterated the ship and seriously damaged 36 other vessels in the harbor. The explosion was so powerful only a single 16' long piece of the ship was found and no human remains of the 350 men aboard were recovered. The blast left a crater in the harbor bottom 1000' x 200' x 40' deep. Debris, including .50 cal and 20mm ammo, rained down upon other ships up to 1,000 yards away. USS MINDANAO (ARG-3) was anchored 350 yards off and 180 of her crew were killed.

Mikey B. wrote: "Perhaps you already know but the Intrepid aircraft carrier is on view in New York City harbor. It's a most interesting and unique museum!..."

Yes, the book is copyrighted by the museum foundation and one of the authors is the president of the Intrepid Museum Foundation. The book has a complete, moving story of how it came to be a museum.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "It does seem quite odd doesn't it, I suppose the nature of fighter combat sometimes does not always leave many, if any, witnesses to acts of supreme bravery."

I think that is a valid point Rick. Many DFCs and DSOs but I understand no where near as many DFMs when compared to DFCs.

Here is an interesting and some what funny comment made by a German Stuka radio operator who was involved in the 18th August raid against RAF Thorney:

"There were burning Stukas all over the place. I fired and fired, and saw the muzzle flashes from the attacking fighters. We radio operators felt as though we were human armor plating for the pilots sitting behind us!"

While reading this book it is striking how many Stuka pilots managed to survive attacks upon their aircraft compared to the rear crew member.

Which I suppose makes perfect sense since most attacks came from behind where the poor radio operator/gunner was sitting like a lame duck! No wonder the German above thought he was human armour plating for the pilot.

The author offers a conclusion in his book on Stuka attacks against Britain and he raises some interesting and valid points.

The first thing to remember was the Ju 87 was a tactical weapon, not a strategic aircraft although it was given a strategic mission. According to the author the Stuka's managed to drive the RN's destroyer flotilla of Dover Command from its home port, thus effectively neutralising the destroyers who may have interfered with any German invasion force. They had disrupted and wreaked considerable havoc amongst the east and westbound Channel convoys, later forcing the complete re-routing of Outbound Atlantic convoys from the Channel. The Stukas also hit and caused considerable damage to seven RAF airfields (not all Fighter Command though) and hit and disabled for a period of time three vital radar stations. The author believes the main failure of the Stukas was in how they were employed against Britain during 1940 (bad Luftwaffe intelligence assessments and flawed target selection).

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The author offers a conclusion in his book on Stuka attacks against Britain and he raises some interesting and valid points.

The first thing to remember was the Ju 87 was a tactical weapon, not a ..."

It seems the Luftwaffe had difficulties as soon as it encountered first-rate opposition. It did well against the Poles, French and the Soviets (early), but not as well against British, American and later Soviet forces.

From my book --

Little Ship, Big War: The Saga of DE343 by Edward P. Stafford

the threat from Japanese air attack, principally kamikazes, in the waters around Okinawa took a serious toll on the men of the U.S. fleet. Battle fatigue or PTSD I think it would be called now. The kamikazes devastated our destroyer and DE forces -- especially the radar pickets. It was tough going for a while, but in the end, we simple overwhelmed the Japanese with numbers and the U.S. Navy's usual operational advantages (excellent damage control, reliable comms, effective weapons, advanced technology, and good basic seamanship). We deployed multiple task forces -- attack, amphibious, NGFS, replenishment and ASW -- all with plentiful at-sea resupply and escort assets. Stafford relays seeing TF 58 steam by at one point. That one TF consisted of: two ESSEX-class carriers, two INDEPENDENCE-class carriers, two IOWA-class fast 16" battlewagons, two ALASKA-class heavy cruisers with nine 12" guns, two ATLANTA-class AAW light cruisers and 12 destroyers. This was only one of eight TFs, including TF 57 -- the British Pacific Fleet which had chopped to U.S. 5th Fleet under Spruance. This was the U.S. Navy at its pinnacle -- approx 1,300 ships. The world may never see such seapower deployed again.

Here is some interesting information from an Australian perspective about kamikazes:


http://www.ww2australia.gov.au/warats...

http://www.kamikazeimages.net/books/s...

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Here is some interesting information from an Australian perspective about kamikazes:


http://www.ww2australia.gov.au/warats...

http://www.kamikazeimages.net/books/s......"

Stafford was at Leyte Gulf and mentions HMAS Shropshire being hit by kamikazes.

Any body else reading a good book on a weapon of WW2?

Here's how a RNZAF pilot stationed in Singapore described the Buffalo in this book Buffaloes Over Singapore: RAF, Raaf, Rnzaf and Dutch Brester Fighters in Action Over Malaya and the East Indies 1941-1942:

The main thing that caused us concern were the guns...They would cock them all on the ground before we left and there were cocking handles in the cockpit - you could cock them yourself if you were strong enough. Two guns used to fire through the prop and two were in the wings. You would depress the button and there would be one shot out of each gun and that would be all. If you managed to cock them again, you might be able to get the two in front firing through the prop, because you could put your feet against something and pull, but I don't think you could ever cock the other two...we would only have been able to fire four shots. And if you were strong enough and stayed alive long enough you could have probably fired another two. But that as it.

Chin Joo wrote: "Here's how a RNZAF pilot stationed in Singapore described the Buffalo in this book [bookcover:Buffaloes Over Singapore: RAF, Raaf, Rnzaf and Dutch Brester Fighters in Action Over Malaya and the Eas..."

Not reassuring. A hell of a way to fight a war.

Great story Chin Joo, thanks for sharing.

Chin Joo wrote: " The main thing that caused us concern were the guns."

how's that for understatement!!

unimaginable !

Chin Joo wrote: "Here's how a RNZAF pilot stationed in Singapore described the Buffalo in this book [bookcover:Buffaloes Over Singapore: RAF, Raaf, Rnzaf and Dutch Brester Fighters in Action Over Malaya and the Eas..."

Starting to see why they weren't loved.

As part of the November theme read I have started reading this book on the German Tiger I:


by Wolfgang Schneider