The Mystery, Crime, and Thriller Group discussion

This is the thread to discuss The Big Sleep. Aditya will be your moderator. There will also be a thread for spoiler comments.

My Review https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Finished rereading The Big Sleep for the group read a couple of days ago and reminded me how good Chandler is. He is probably the best dialogue writer of all time, only Billy Wilder's scripts come close in combining wit and cynicism so effortlessly. And then there is the prose, so many authors have tried to nail it but none do it like Chandler. I have read Ross Macdonald and James Crumley since my first rodeo with The Big Sleep. They have probably come closest to emulating Chandler's style while remaining damn good themselves but the reread proved Chandler is still the gold standard when it comes to those metaphors and similes that sound outlandish yet perfect.

Marlowe probably has nothing left except an idea what an honest/ loyal man should be. He probably is not one himself but he keeps trying to live up to that idea, that gives him a set of morals that is probably inexplicable to everyone else but they make him my favorite crime fiction protagonist.

As for the story itself the plot is pretty good, though there is a famous unsolved ancillary mystery. I actually believe Chandler's plots often get overshadowed by the atmosphere but when the atmosphere is so tangible, it really can't be helped.

I think atmosphere and dialog are Chandler's strong points. The plots are good enough to keep you turning the pages. One of my all-time favorite writers.

I enjoyed this book a lot when I read it a few years back, but I actually prefer the sequel Farewell, My Lovely.

This is my first Raymond Chandler book and I think I am hooked. Complex plot and rich characters. The ending wasn’t a shocker since I have seen the movie many times, but it still packed a punch.

@ David I agree with everything you said.

@RJ I actually think Farewell My Lovely will be in the bottom half of Chandler's books for me though weak is a very relative term when applied to this series and even the weakest entry is pretty good.

@Susan You are in for a great ride. All of the 6 full length novels are good to great. By the time you reach The Little Sister and The Long Goodbye the prose gets even more cynical and delightful to read.

This is the first Raymond Chandler book I've read. He has a way to transplant the reader into the past. I could see the old cars, the way men wore suits & hats, and women were thought to be emotional (I hope he doesn't always write the female characters this way in future books).

Glad this was the choice for October!

My review is here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

The Big Sleep is so great! I too am a huge Chandler fan. That language, that twisted confusion, that despair, that poetry, that grim corrosive L.A. world! He is the master. Sigh.

My two favorites of Chandler's are Lady in the Lake and The High Window but I've never read anything by him that I didn't enjoy. I'd even recommend some of his very early short stories that are clearly lacking form, as the use of language is still golden. Glad to be a part of introducing a few newbies to his work.

I particularly love the way Chandler saturates his environments with detail. Like that deliciously dripping greenhouse of Sternwood's, the suffocating moist heat that, just reading it, can leave me sweating on the coldest winter day. Which of the many saturated images and/or environments from The Big Sleep is your favorite? Or which jumps to mind when you think of the book?

@Sara I think The High Window is pretty underrated among Chandler fans. Good to see some love for it. And agree on the language, a brilliant stylist.

From The Big Sleep I like the part about Marlowe seeing the knight on his first visit to the Sternwood mansion. That one image pretty much mirrors the whole of Marlowe's character. An errant knight distracted by the excesses of sexual indulgences trying his best to live up to the code.

And my favorite line - A nice neighborhood to have bad habits in.

I have thought for many years that I have read this book at some point but now that I actually have, I concluded that I must have just watched the movie so many times that I got the impression that I had read it. The big difference between the movie and the book is that the book actually makes sense. The movie, on the other hand, is pure style, pulp fiction boiled down to its essence with little though given to the actual plot. The book, while it has style in spades, also has a plot that makes sense and characters who behave as characters in their position could be expected to behave. I love it!

@Tom The movie is a bit overrated, it is solid but not really deserving of being called one of the greatest film noirs. It is up there with stuff like Laura rather than Double Indemnity or Touch of Evil.

@Sara I had the same reaction to the greenhouse scene. I also shivered with the rain at Geiger's house - another superb description.

I have finished reading the book and even though i am not a big fan of la femme fatale trope, i thorowly enjoyed the writing itself and i was very entertained by the main character's charisma, wit and sarcasm. He is an intense fellow, capable and intelligent. I also enjoyed the snappy comebacks that gave me a few giggles throughout the book.
All in all, it was a book i really liked and i am glad to have met this interesting character that Marlowe is. 👌

Jacquie wrote: "This is the first Raymond Chandler book I've read. He has a way to transplant the reader into the past. I could see the old cars, the way men wore suits & hats, and women were thought to be emotion..."

His female characters never live up to modern standards but judging by pulp fiction written in 1940, his depiction of women is not half bad.

Lu wrote: "I have finished reading the book and even though i am not a big fan of la femme fatale trope, i thorowly enjoyed the writing itself and i was very entertained by the main character's charisma, wit ..."

If your first line is anything to go by, you are probably not a huge noir fan but it's a testament to Chandler's skill that Marlowe still almost turns you into a convert :)

My Review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Raymond Chandler’s The Big Sleep is all one might expect from a private eye novel full of noir-like mood set in 1939 Los Angeles, and then some.
World-weary private dick (that was the slang term in those days for “detective”—look it up) Philip Marlowe is hired by rich, frail General Sternwood when Carmen, the younger of his wild and oft-reckless daughters, becomes the focus of a blackmail scheme, and not for the first time.
Though it seems like a straightforward case, the story becomes a winding road filled with missing husbands, illicit smut, gambling, blackmail, grifts, and murder perpetrated by some very unsavory characters, some of them ending up very dead.
Only Marlowe’s respect for his client keeps him in the game as he quickly tires of both Sternwood daughters and their antics.
Chandler pens a compelling narrative filled to bursting with memorable characters against the backdrop of the seamy side of L.A. in 1939. Marlowe is a lone, honest knight trying to do right by his clients while adhering to his own code of ethics, much to the chagrin of the cops, criminals, and sometimes even the clients, he encounters.
The case, not unlike life, gets messy; ethical lines blur quickly and there are no ready answers or easily-defined characters, as there are many shades of gray.
However, it’s best to remember the era in which this novel was written; don’t expect to find much in the way of diversity; gay male characters are given short shrift, involved in the criminal underworld while referred to in derogatory terms, who could never be as tough as straight men. Women are usually nothing but trouble, neither trustworthy nor reliable and sometimes not even sane, save for one bookseller described as having “the fine-drawn face of an intelligent Jewess.”
Still, it’s worth reading, as it’s well written and Chandler’s contributions forever changed the mystery genre as we know it. Plus, he inspired my favorite writer, Robert B. Parker. Four stars.
#book #reading #mystery #privateeye #PhilipMarlowe #noir #TheBigSleep

Re-reading this book reminded me why I like Raymond Chandler's writing and why he's been such an influence on my writing.

His writing is similar to Claude Debussy's music in its strong sense of atmosphere and timbre (if literature can have timbre).

The Big Sleep was a good group read suggestion.

Am new here as an author still need to catch up, have a lot on my plate right now

I just finished this book and realized I am a noir fan but never knew it.

Sara wrote: "The Big Sleep is so great! I too am a huge Chandler fan. That language, that twisted confusion, that despair, that poetry, that grim corrosive L.A. world! He is the master. Sigh.

My two favorites..."

I'm reading The Big Sleep that has a ton of information about everything to do with the book, Chandler and 1930's L.A., as well as noir in general. In one of the annotations it says he wrote an essay once where he said ". . . the scene outranked the plot, in the sense that a good plot was one which made good scenes. The ideal mystery was one you would read if the end was missing." And to your question/point, there are so many good scenes in TBS. One that stands out to me is in the dilapidated office building when Harry Jones is killed by the cyanide cocktail. And also when Marlowe visits the crumbling mansion where Eddie Mars casino is located. So many others stand out!

I've enjoyed following along with the conversation while listening to the great Eliot Gould narrate The Big Sleep audiobook. I also happened upon a book in a search of my library's collection that I think some of you Chandler lovers would like. The Annotated Big Sleep (pub. 2018) has everything you would want to know and that you would not know you wanted to know about TBS, noir, Chandler, 1930's L.A., etc. Filled with notes, photos and illustrations, it is a fun read/companion to reading TBS.

One thing that stood out to me was the source material for TBS. Chandler published many short stories in The Black Mask pulp fiction periodical prior to publishing a novel. TBS pulls from several stories, most heavily from The Black Rain and The Curtain, which explains to me why TBS can feel disjointed at times. The book's authors also point out that he copied several passages from Dashell Hammett, something he owned up to!

Anyway, I really liked TBS and plan to read others. Am glad it was chosen for the group read this month!

@Amy Welcome to the club. The only problem is that after starting with Chandler, the zenith of the genre the rest might pale in comparison.

@Suzy I knew about Chandler's quote regarding the paramount importance of the scene but didn't know the Hammett incident. Thanks for the share.

Interestingly Chandler was mostly critical of other contemporary crime writers, (notably Ross Macdonald) except Hammett whom he revered. I personally think it was mainly due to the fact Hammett preceded him. If Hammett had followed him or been a contemporary I don't think his praise would be so gushing.

I kept Chandler's The Long Goodbye under my word doc while writing Pretty City Murder. His work is more sarcastic than mine, but reading just a few paragraphs would give me an idea and I would write.

I watched the movie with Humphrey Bogart last night. I'm not sure I'd every seen it before, even though I thought I had before watching. I was disappointed and to Tom's point, it felt disjointed. I think because it was sanitized, which made it hard to build tension. So many lines taken directly from the book, but often out of context because they didn't make things explicit, especially the pornography. Also that Vivien/Lauren Bacall was not married to the disappeared Regan. I thought it was all atmosphere and a muddled story.

Interesting that William Faulkner was the screenwriter and that Chandler was the screenwriter for Double Indemnity, one of the best film noirs of all time!

One last note, Chandler pictured Cary Grant as Marlowe - sort of polar opposite of Bogie.

Suzy wrote: "I watched the movie with Humphrey Bogart last night. I'm not sure I'd every seen it before, even though I thought I had before watching. I was disappointed and to Tom's point, it felt disjointed. I..."

I tried to get a discussion going in the spoiler thread regarding the movie but it hardly saw any traffic throughout the month. Anyway I agree with everything you said regarding the movie. It's an ok noir but a bad adaptation of one of the most influential crime books of all time. As I mentioned in my review I just felt Howard Hawks direction was to blame, he made it too generic. The ending shows it simply does not understand or intend to capture the spirit or atmosphere of the book.

Chandler felt Martha Vickers (the one who played the younger daughter of the General) was brilliant and overshadowed Bacall to such an extent that most of her material was left on the cutting floor. And I don't think Grant would have worked, too smooth to play a beaten down gumshoe.

Aditya wrote: "@Suzy I knew about Chandler's quote regarding the paramount importance of the scene but didn't know the Hammett incident. Thanks for the share.

Interestingly Chandler was mostly critical of other ..."


I agree, I doubt Chandler would have had the same opinion of Hammett if he had been a contemporary.

Aditya wrote: "Suzy wrote: "I watched the movie with Humphrey Bogart last night. I'm not sure I'd every seen it before, even though I thought I had before watching. I was disappointed and to Tom's point, it felt ..."

Oh, and about Cary Grant, I agree. Way too suave! I always picture Marlowe as Elliot Gould, who played him in Robert Altman's The Long Goodbye and who narrated all of his audiobooks. He does a great job with the narration - I've listened to the first two.

David wrote: "I agree, I doubt Chandler would have had the same opinion of Hammett if he had been a contemporary."

I was just reading a collection of noir, it contains a brief biography of the authors featured. It seems Chandler was critical of quite a few folks. I knew about his criticism of James M Cain (while writing the screenplay of Double Indemnity) and Ross Macdonald (when reading the first book in his Archer series) but he was scathing about a few others too. I can't really fault him though, compared to him everybody was playing on a different field; he was that good.

Suzy wrote: "Oh, and about Cary Grant, I agree. Way too suave! I always picture Marlowe as Elliot Gould, who played him in Robert Altman's The Long Goodbye and who narrated all of his audiobooks. He does a great job with the narration - I've listened to the first two."

I have not seen that but I always thought Robert Mitchum in Out of the Past played a character very similar to Marlowe. Mitchum went on to play an older Marlowe later though I had not watched that one either. Bogart could have been perfect had he approached it a bit differently.

Aditya wrote: "Suzy wrote: "Oh, and about Cary Grant, I agree. Way too suave! I always picture Marlowe as Elliot Gould, who played him in Robert Altman's The Long Goodbye and who narrated all of his audiobooks. H..."

Mitchum was in a pretty terrible version of The Big Sleep in the late 70's. The Long Goodbye from 1973 with Gould is worth a look! Criticized at the time, I think it's now considered classic Altman, if not classic noir.

I was disappointed by the couple of Altman movies I watched - The Player with Tim Robbins and Gosford Park. So never really got around to checking out The Long Goodbye though I have mainly heard positive things around it.