Hollows Read-along to AMERICAN DEMON discussion

I'd gotten used to the more friendly, morally grey Trent in later books and forgot just how evil he is in this book. How evil is Trent in DWW? Let us count the ways:

--He kills several people in cold blood (the scientist, Francis, other murders strongly implied.)
--He beats Rachel senseless in her mink form (granted, she had bit him, but still, kind of shocking that he physically beat her).
--He puts Rachel in a cage for three days as a form of psychological torture.
--He lets Jonathon physically harass Rachel.
--He enters Rachel in the rat fights, basically subjecting her to an even worse version of cock fighting.
--He drugs Sarah Jane to get to Rachel.
--He admits to "breaking" Jonathon and promises to spiritually destroy Rachel the same way.
--He sets the dogs on Rachel, and presumably they would have torn her apart if they caught her, and nearly runs her down with his horse.

...okay, I know he was the villain in DWW and his role evolves as the series goes on. But that's just...I mean...(view spoiler)[how did this dude ever become the love interest, let alone Rachel's husband? Are we really okay with this? (hide spoiler)]

I totally agree with everything that you said......... it’s just the subtle ways he exposed himself to her.... singing takata in his office..... totally relaxing while she was there...... even stealing the pinky ring was kinda cute. I know he was a meanie but he positioned himself as a character to watch out for and I kinda like a bad guy in my novels :)

I agree... He was totally evil at the beginning but I think my love of a bad guy always gave me a soft spot for Trent. I think if it wasn't for Kisten :'(.... I probably would have been rooting for Trent throughout the whole series

I remember being petrified that he chased her down like a fox hunt, for some reason this stuck with me for years. I really really disliked Trent in the first book, and Jonathon even more so.

I completely forgot what a horrible person he was too, so amazing how all the characters develop as time goes on. I ended up loving Al and Kisten as well and they both started out as a little terrifying. Funny too that I was a little cautious of Nick but he seemed ok, and then he turned out to be such a jerk, I hated the way he was. I am so enjoying revisiting this amazing series.

Ah, Trent. Let us count the ways we hated this vile Inlander. It drove me nuts that even Jenks couldn’t figure out what he was. But he’s the epitome of the phrase ‘absolute power corrupts absolutely’. He can do whatever he wants to whomever he wants and nobody can touch him. He planned to kill Rachel in the rat fights and Francis in the FIB raid. His hands would have stayed clean. But that didn’t work, so Frances had to die before he could implicate him.
I’m surprised that he wasn’t the one who sicced Al on Rachel, but you learn why in later stories.

Amen! All I could think of was the Erlking!

Amanda: Having the knowledge of what his ultimate goals are from later in the series does make some of his behavior in DWW seem a little less like pure evil, but only a little bit. His whole thing about breaking people for the fun of it is not justified by (view spoiler)[his mission to save the Elven race (hide spoiler)] whatsoever.

Jess: Stealing the pinky ring was a weird combination of cute and creepy as hell. It was kind of like he was a school boy pulling the hair of the girl he liked, only his version of it was standing over her while she was sleeping and stealing her jewelry 0_0

LilWashu: I don't think he planned to kill Rachel in the rat fights. I think he wanted to scare her into submission, but he didn't expect her to die. He does tell her in a later book though (maybe A Perfect Blood?) that she was "never in any real danger" during the rat fight, which is ludicrous. Stuff like that makes me wonder how much he's really reformed by the end, if he's still lying to her like that.

Karen wrote: "Amanda: Having the knowledge of what his ultimate goals are from later in the series does make some of his behavior in DWW seem a little less like pure evil, but only a little bit. His whole thing ..."

If the man only knows how to flirt through crime who am I to stop him LOL

It took a long time to get over/forget how terrible he was in the earlier books but for some reason, it seemed like I gave Al a pass quicker and the things he had done was worse!

I totally forgot about how much I disliked Trent in the first book.

Maybe it's just me, but I loved Trent from the start (I began the series on book 6). DWW was the fifth book I read from the series so I already partially knew what was going on with Trent. Through every re-read of DWW, I always look forward to Trent's scenes.

I have to say that in most of the early books I really didn’t like Trent, but as you get to know him and his motive throughout the series most of what he has done becomes sort of justified? But the whole morality of the series has become more gray, it’s not black-and-white anymore and I think that’s kind of the point to some degree. A lot of what Rachael faces in most of these books is the question: is it still wrong to do certain thing if you do it for the right reasons? If you’ve read the prequel The Turn, you see that, given his parents, Trent is not as bad as he could’ve been, even in the earlier books.

It is always something that intrigues me. Watching these characters shift and change through the series. I do always wonder about Trent though. He really is what I would consider super evil in this first book

I haven't made it that far yet in the DWW reread, however, I was intrigued with Trent's character from the from the beginning for some reason. I think it is this book towards the end where he drives his car and you see a slightly different side of him. When he really made me mad was in a future book when he found out what Rachel is and I believe beat her head again a tombstone in her backyard.

I’m having a hard time remembering exactly what I thought of Trent the first time I read the series, but I’m pretty sure that I was always sitting a little straighter when he was in a scene. The back-and-forth between him and Rachel was captivating from the start. I don’t think I ever hated him. Yes, he murdered an employee- but Rachel lives with a vampire who is clearly lethal, and she doesn’t really ask her any hard questions about what she might have done in the past. She also worked for an organization that is literally trying to kill her, did she seriously never have any kind of inkling that the IS wasn’t some perfectly benevolent peace-keeping organization? Also, to be fair, Rachel keeps breaking into his office and residence. In his world, that makes her the bad guy. I guess I had a hard time seeing him as bad since Rachel’s biggest accusation was that he ran Brimstone and I didn’t really understand what that even was. And then with the discs, it’s sort of explained that drug manufacturing is outlawed in this world but as a person living in THIS world, I can’t ever think that getting cancer drugs to cancer patients is evil. Pegging him as a bad guy because he shipped insulin never sat right with me, which is what made me suspect pretty fast that there would be many more layers to Trent that would be uncovered.

You know, I’ll admit that I wasn’t enamored with Trent the first time I read DWW. Actually, I remember being so angry during Rachel’s scene as a mink. I’m actually rereading this part right now, and it still makes me agitated. With that said, I didn’t hate Trent either. I knew there was more to him. When he tells Rachel not to be angry with Jon (who I have f***ing despised for the entirety of the series), I knew he had some sense of compassion, but at the time, he was trying to protect himself. So, as he didn’t know Rachel anymore, he didn’t have a reason to let any feelings of guilt rule. I could also feel that there was more to him, that he was complex and I love to love the bad guy when there’s a sense of depth to them. So I both disliked and liked him. Later, after having read the whole series more than once, I can also see that a part of him always expected Rachel to come out on top....it’s like he was testing her in hopes that she would get stronger and be who he expected her to be even though he had a hate/love relationship with her for the longest time.

I have always not trusted Trent or his motives. I also can't understand how Rachel can even trust him, given the circumstances. I could forgive someone who stole from me, someone who hurt me, or someone who was hateful. But someone who actively tried to kill me on two separate occasions? I couldn't ever see me trusting that person fully.

(I am counting the rat fight and the head bashing in the cemetery. You could argue that the hounds being set on her that night would be a third time. While one can argue that the rat fights were never meant to be fatal, Rachel may have seen it differently at the time.)

Valerie: If you think of Trent's role in the world in terms of being one of the few sources of effective medicines, then it becomes hard to take issue with much of what he does. Like he could kill ten scientists on the floor of his office, he's saving orders of magnitude more with the drugs and he can't risk disrupting that.

So yeah, in a broader context, he's doing something good in the world. And Rachel does seem to think she has the right to break into his office constantly without retaliation, which is weird. Like she keeps pulling the lion's tail and then acting indignant when it roars. Part of Rachel's general entitled attitude, which she fortunately grows out of.

All that said, some of his behavior in this book is still loathsome IMO.

Brian: Everyone seems to forget the time he tried to kill her in the cemetery. Even in universe, people seem to forget that one. I've always found it strange that there were no consequences for that, like Rachel just thought "Oh well he was emotional, it happens," and let it go completely.

Karen wrote: "Valerie: If you think of Trent's role in the world in terms of being one of the few sources of effective medicines, then it becomes hard to take issue with much of what he does. Like he could kill ..."

You bring up an interesting point- that Rachel doesn’t seem to think she deserves any kind of consequence for breaking into his office on multiple occasions. I mean, what is the alternative here? He could have done the correct thing, which would have been to turn her in to the IS. That’s what you’re supposed to do with a burglar, right? Hand them over to the authorities. Pretty sure that would have ended badly for Rachel. I don’t think he ever would have let her die in the rat fights. Not only because he was still hoping that she would work for him, but also because (view spoiler)[ he remembers her from when they were children. (hide spoiler)] I’ve always felt like a lot of Trent’s personality and choices in the beginning are shaped by... a lack of love in his life. Once he begins to open his heart to the possibility of having more than just success in business, he starts to become much more likeable. And frankly, if I had gotten to The Witch With No Name with Rachel having stayed exactly the same as she was in Dead Witch Walking, she wouldn’t be one of my favorite literary characters. There’s a lot of growth in store for every character.

Valerie wrote: "Karen wrote: "Valerie: If you think of Trent's role in the world in terms of being one of the few sources of effective medicines, then it becomes hard to take issue with much of what he does. Like ..."

I always forget that he remembered their past first! Love the perspective Valerie. With role models like Jon its no wonder Trent was on the road to entitled Sahan. Even his lady love in the series was ice cold.

I think the mystery surrounding Trent is fascinating and intriguing. Yes, he's a jerk through most of the series until the last two or three books, if I remember right. Still, the mystery of him is part of what kept me reading book after book in the series.
Of course, I really HATE his attitude that he is totally untouchable and better than everyone else.

Just a side question.. do we find out what the numbers mean on Trent's computer screen? (twenty, five, one)

I think of Trent in the early books and can't help but hear "Muhaha" in an evil voice. How has he gotten this far in life??? Oh yeah, he has money and a system that has been designed to protect him from birth; I assume. He and AL really make me want to grab the first baseball bat and start swinging, except I really do not want to piss him off in fear of the things I imagine he could do to me.

Rune wrote: "I think of Trent in the early books and can't help but hear "Muhaha" in an evil voice. How has he gotten this far in life??? Oh yeah, he has money and a system that has been designed to protect him..."

Sorry, now I am thinking of him as Snidely Whiplash, twirling his mustache while cackling. :)

In our world, money protects those who have it and punishes those who do not. Really can't imagine it would be any different there...

Valerie: Yeah I wonder if Rachel really realizes the position she's putting him in. If he gets caught making biodrugs, he won't just go to jail, he'll likely be killed; she's putting not just his business, but his life in jeopardy. Then when he's mad at her and treats her badly she's like "how DARE he," lol. Rache! You're trying to get him killed! How did you think he was going to react?

To come back to my original point, putting her in a cage and in the rat fights was still barbaric and cruel, and there's no excuse for that. But I have a feeling ANYTHING Trent did in retaliation at that point would have triggered Rachel's whole "how DARE he!" attitude. I don't think she really makes any effort to see things from his perspective at all until after he steals the pinkie ring, at which point she at least realizes that breaking into his house a bunch of times is getting to him.

Karen wrote: "Valerie: Yeah I wonder if Rachel really realizes the position she's putting him in. If he gets caught making biodrugs, he won't just go to jail, he'll likely be killed; she's putting not just his b..."
I’ve always thought that Rachel’s attitude toward Trent is colored by the emotions from their shared childhood experiences. From later books, we learn that just because the memory is blocked, doesn’t mean your emotions or body has also forgotten.
That “how dare he” attitude sounds an awful lot like the preteens they were.

Charlotte wrote: "Just a side question.. do we find out what the numbers mean on Trent's computer screen? (twenty, five, one)"

20-5-1 is an old marketing technique, meaning for every twenty people you cold call, five might be interested, and one might buy. They were words I pinned my sanity on when I was trying to break into print, and they still scroll across my work computer, almost twenty years later.

Trent was never my favorite but at least he was up front about his "evil"-ness. Unlike another character that seems to go from ok to bad and can't see that he's doing it.

Charlotte-- I was all in on Team Kisten too and my love for Kisten-- and my sorrow over the direction he ended up taking💔--made it so much harder to accept Trent with Rachel, even after it started to look like he had far more good than evil after all and that his feelings were genuine and deep. Even then, a big part of me was still waiting for Kisten to reunite with Rachel so any time my feelings towards Trent softened, I felt like I was betraying Kisten.(and yes, I realize how weird that sounds lol!)Sometimes I'd find myself muttering to my book "Yeah, well... you're still no Kisten buddy!" If not for Kisten, I would have been able to get behind Trent&Rachel 100%. But Kisten stole a piece of my heart first-- which was the first time that had ever happened to me. And probably the last book crush cause years later and I still haven't gotten over it.Which makes me feel like I sound crazy... at the time I thought I was cracking up lol!! I was given the books to read shortly after being treated with chemo for breast cancer and having a double mastectomy so my whole world was in a state of emotional upheaval. Kisten was my healing balm... and Rache and Jenks and Ivy-- and Kim of course! The friend who had gotten me hooked took me to one of Kim's book signings and I was so grateful to get the chance to thank her in person!! These books came into my hands just as I was going back to my "normal" life and finding out that "normal" would never be normal again-- which was a soul-crushing blow. It's hard to explain to people why you're crying and depressed when you're all clear and everything's over and done and they all think you should be celebrating. And I had thought that I would be celebrating constantly-- I had been hanging on just to get back to my normal life only to find out it had ceased to exist the moment that cancer became my dance partner. These books were an emotional lifeline thrown out just before I drowned. And wow-- I didn't realize I was going to say all that just now. Sorry for going on-- thanks for listening though!😊💙💙