The Old Curiosity Club discussion

Dear Curiosities,

Since we have already read well into our new novel Martin Chuzzlewit, it is high time we betook ourselves to The Blue Dragon. Old Willet may not have been a very talkative host but still The Maypole was a cosy place, and one well-looked-after, and the conversations of the Maypole cronies provided a soothing background buzz to our own talks. I am sure that Mrs. Jupin's inn will also serve our needs, the hostess being probably even more welcoming and sociable than Willet, and even though Mark Tapley might not be around any more, we will definitely have it jolly! After all, this will be the place we'll be bringing out this year's Christmas toasts and welcoming the New Year in!

So let's join around the fire - to the detriment of poor Tom Pinch, probably, but certainly to Mr. Pecksniff's - and let's be jolly!

Yeah, I'm up for it. Can't wait to meet Slyme and Tiggs. Tiggs reminds me of Popeye's Whimpy: "I'll gladly pay you Thursday for a hamburger today." Or some such request he made.

Glad to see we have a new establishment. My wife and I are on vacation and almost went to our previous watering hole.

A closer hello to Julie and Linda since we are in Victoria. I may post the next chapters either a bit early or a bit late but they will be coming.

Peter wrote: "A closer hello to Julie and Linda since we are in Victoria."

Hello, Peter! A wave across the water!! :)

The world's first Christmas card goes on display at the Charles Dickens Museum.

https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/na...

The word of the day that I found in my inbox this morning is not one I've heard used before, but those of us reading Martin Chuzzlewit will instantly know its meaning. :-) Know before clicking that there's a bit of a spoiler in the explanation of the word's origins. There is also mention of two other words that were coined from Martin Chuzzlewit. (Those, I have heard used before.)

https://wordsmith.org/words/today.html

John wrote: "The world's first Christmas card goes on display at the Charles Dickens Museum.

https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/na..."

I love this! I managed a Hallmark store for several years back in the days before most people had computers and people still sent greeting cards. I'm one of the few who still sends Christmas cards to friends and relatives. I was surprised that this was a new thing in 1843. Perhaps that's when mail service became more widespread and/or more affordable? I love the picture - it's very reminiscent of Rockwell's classic "Freedom From Want" which we often see around Thanksgiving. Or I guess I should say, more accurately, that "Freedom From Want" is reminiscent of this greeting card. Also interesting, if I'm seeing it correctly, is the sketch on the right side depicting a kind, charitable moment, alongside the joyous family gathering. No sign of the nativity, though, which is surprising. I'm not sure what's happening on the left. Any theories?

As this card was dated the same year A Christmas Carol was published, we cannot credit Dickens' influence.

Thanks, John!

LOL!!!

Under Pecksiffian

Charles Dickens describes Pecksniff like this: "Some people likened him to a direction-post, which is always telling the way to a place, and never goes there."

What a great line.

Peter wrote: "Glad to see we have a new establishment. My wife and I are on vacation and almost went to our previous watering hole.

A closer hello to Julie and Linda since we are in Victoria. I may post the nex..."

Peter,

Enjoy your holidays! Tomorrow, our autumn holidays start, but we'll stay at home. There has to be some tidying-up here :-(

Because the word of today went on to Eeyore (another great character, but not Dickensian), I went back to the one of yesterday. Here a link that stays at the word meant, I hope ;-)
https://wordsmith.org/words/tapleyism...

I like this word of the day thing!

My friends

You will see from my postings of this week’s chapters I have Chapter 10 followed by Chapter 9. Sorry about that. We are on our way back home from our holidays so I posted early, and in a bit of a rush. Once again, my computer skills are in evidence.

A town not far from me hold its annual Dickens Festival.

https://medfordbusiness.org/events/di...

Although I have not attended this festival, I have eaten at one of the main stops on it: Braddock's Tavern.

It was built around 1750 and has stayed much the same as it was when built. The floors creak. You wind around different small rooms for dinner. There's a fire place going in every room in the winter.

A minor housekeeping thing: I noticed when I go to our homepage, we are still listed as reading Barnaby Rudge.

Peter wrote: "Glad to see we have a new establishment. My wife and I are on vacation and almost went to our previous watering hole.

A closer hello to Julie and Linda since we are in Victoria. I may post the nex..."

Hi, Peter! I have promised my mother-in-law I will take her to Victoria on one of her visits out from Vermont. Must get on that.

(I know there are many, many attractions, but admit I am partly in it for the clotted cream.)

John wrote: "A minor housekeeping thing: I noticed when I go to our homepage, we are still listed as reading Barnaby Rudge."

Thanks for pointing this out, John. I've just fixed the problem, and our group page should be up to date now.

I was not aware that Mary Dickens had written a book about her father. Of the children, Kate always seemed the most prominent. Mary's biography on Wikipedia seems to be the longest of all the Dickens children.

She may be the only one who actually witnessed her father's writing process personally and closely and wrote of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Di...

John wrote: "I was not aware that Mary Dickens had written a book about her father. Of the children, Kate always seemed the most prominent. Mary's biography on Wikipedia seems to be the longest of all the Dicke..."

John

You might also enjoy Dickens's Artistic Daughter Katey: Her Life, Loves & Impact I read it and found it fascinating.

Peter wrote: "John wrote: "I was not aware that Mary Dickens had written a book about her father. Of the children, Kate always seemed the most prominent. Mary's biography on Wikipedia seems to be the longest of ..."

Thanks Peter. That looks very interesting and I plan to read it.

The literary critic and professor at Yale, Harold Bloom, has passed away.

He was a great admirer of Dickens and did some wonderful expositions of his works. I enjoyed his close readings of Pickwick, Bleak House, and Great Expectations. Bloom's writings through the years also moved me to read authors and some of their specific works that I might not have considered.

If you wish to read one of his books, I would recommend "How To Read And Why." A wonderful work.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...

John wrote: "A town not far from me hold its annual Dickens Festival..."

I wish a town near me had a Dickens Festival.

John wrote: "I was not aware that Mary Dickens had written a book about her father. Of the children, Kate always seemed the most prominent. Mary's biography on Wikipedia seems to be the longest of all the Dicke..."

One of the excerpts:

"Even in those early days, he made a point of visiting every room in the house once each morning, and if a chair was out of its place, or a blind not quite straight, or a crumb left on the floor, woe betide the offender."

Sounds like The Inimitable had OCD. Have any of his biographies explored this? Another reason to sympathize with poor Catherine. Living with someone with OCD is a challenge on the best of days - probably even more so back before it had a name and was recognized as a mental disorder.

PS - Just found this. I may have to track down this book.

https://www.medindia.net/news/charles...

Another site gave me these tidbits:

No matter where he lay, Dickens always made sure to sleep with his head pointing north as he believed it improved his writing.

Dickens ... preferred to touch things 3 times for luck and was a mild obsessive-compulsive with regard to his hair and would often comb and preen it over 100 times every day.

Continuing the discussion from The Maypole...

I feel like we're in a cultural moment where this happens all the time with adaptations and why? Why does everything have to be edgy and dark--as if Dickens weren't dark enough already?

YES. For me, life is edgy and dark enough. Since 9/11, and also since my daughter got a job traveling to countries where she gets hazard pay and has to take counter-terrorism training, I feel like things in the real world are bad enough. I don't choose to spend too much of my down time with "dark and edgy". I've added "A Gentleman in Moscow" to my to-read list -- thanks for the recommendation!

My Dickens detector remained quite silent while reading it.

Xan, this gave me my good laugh for the morning. :-) After reading everyone's comments on "The Goldfinch" I've returned it to the library for the next person on the wait list. I may read it someday, but there are too many other options I think I'd prefer for right now.

Mary Lou wrote: "John wrote: "I was not aware that Mary Dickens had written a book about her father. Of the children, Kate always seemed the most prominent. Mary's biography on Wikipedia seems to be the longest of ..."

I think it fair to say that Dickens had OCD in terms of needing to write. Consider the novels, plays, journalism and the 12 volumes of letters. How could anyone do that with a quill pen?

I have flirted with the idea of sitting down and copying a single chapter of one of his novels to get the feeling of what that would be like. Such an enterprise would not need for me to be in the least way creative, humourous, ironic, metaphoric or anything else but a drudge simply copying words. Then, I came to my senses. :-)

Peter wrote: "I have flirted with the idea of sitting down and copying a single chapter of one of his novels to get the feeling of what that would be like. Such an enterprise would not need for me to be in the least way creative, humourous, ironic, metaphoric or anything else but a drudge simply copying words. Then, I came to my senses. :-)"


While I wouldn't inflict it on anyone, I love the idea of this experiment. Bet you'd learn a lot.

I do sometimes wonder how word processing has changed books. It's got to make a huge difference when you can just tweak a few words in, say, a 300-page project, without having to reprint the entire thing. It always stuns me that pre-word-processing literature is as good as it is, given how much more challenging revision must have been.

Julie wrote: "Peter wrote: "I have flirted with the idea of sitting down and copying a single chapter of one of his novels to get the feeling of what that would be like. Such an enterprise would not need for me ..."

I'm sure I'm not alone in this group in that I still occasionally write letters to people in longhand. As time goes on, it becomes more difficult. My hand muscles are no longer accustomed to it, and my penmanship has suffered. It's a shame, really. But I can't imagine writing out a chapter of Martin Chuzzlewit at this point. It certainly wouldn't be very legible by the end. And to do it with a quill?!

My dad wrote a few books in the days when word processors were just replacing typewriters. He wrote his books (non-fiction, with lots of footnotes) on legal pads, double-spaced. After it was all on paper, he'd type it out. I think there was enough of a technology block there that he was much more comfortable having it on paper. Teaching himself the technology, not to mention how to type (pretty sure he did the hunt and peck method) was too much on top of all the research and actual writing. Then he'd have to print it all out to submit to his publisher by mail. No sending it electronically. I guess it's been nearly 40 years already (time flies when you're getting old!) but it seems like so much has changed in such a short time. I'll bet Dickens would have killed for a good ballpoint and a stack of legal pads.

Peter wrote: "I have flirted with the idea of sitting down and copying a single chapter of one of his novels to get the feeling of what that would be like. Such an enterprise would not need for me to be in the least way creative, humourous, ironic, metaphoric or anything else but a drudge simply copying words. Then, I came to my senses. :-)"

I am not sure whether copying a chapter of a work by Dickens will give you the same experience as actually writing something that has never been written before. When you copy, you simply hurry from word to word, but making it all up would probably involve more pauses, more chin-scratching and more crossing out what you have already written and squeezing other words in between the lines. When I was at school, I used to write stories - mostly dark and edgy horror stories -, and I usually did it with pen, ink and paper, and I loved the feel of it. When it came to re-typing the story on a typewriter (yes, I still had an electric one before I bought my first computer), the experience was less winsome because that was mere mechanical work, although from time to time, I would make alterations to the text.

Now I type most of my texts directly into the computer, print them out and correct and revise them pen in hand. Doing it all on the screen would get me nervous and feeling itchy. Lesson plans and notes I make when I sit in other people's lessons I invariably do in handwriting, although nowadays for the latter I use an iPad and the app Notability, simply because I have to keep my notes for two and a half years, and I don't want my study to be dominated by rows and rows of files.

I am a very, very lazy letter-writer, however.

Mary Lou wrote: "John wrote: "A town not far from me hold its annual Dickens Festival..."

I wish a town near me had a Dickens Festival."

Same here! Because there's none here.

John wrote: "The literary critic and professor at Yale, Harold Bloom, has passed away.

He was a great admirer of Dickens and did some wonderful expositions of his works. I enjoyed his close readings of Pickwic..."

Hmmm, that sounds very interesting, John.

Mary Lou wrote: "John wrote: "A town not far from me hold its annual Dickens Festival..."

I wish a town near me had a Dickens Festival."

There is a chapter of the Dickens Fellowship here in Toronto. Each year we celebrate his birthday at one of the grand old hotels in the city. Along with a Dickensian lunch this year’s key note presentation is going to be a dramatic reading of Nancy’s Death from Oliver Twist. If anyone wants to come to Toronto for the presentation and a visit let me know.

As always, if my wife and win the lottery I would happily fly you all here. What larks it would be to be together for a Dickens event.
:-)

John wrote: "The literary critic and professor at Yale, Harold Bloom, has passed away.

He was a great admirer of Dickens and did some wonderful expositions of his works. I enjoyed his close readings of Pickwic..."

Bloom's name is very familiar to me, but I can't place why. Sorry to hear of his death.

Mary Lou wrote: "John wrote: "The literary critic and professor at Yale, Harold Bloom, has passed away.

He was a great admirer of Dickens and did some wonderful expositions of his works. I enjoyed his close readin..."

If anyone’s interested, here’s a write up of Harold Bloom in the New York Times. He was definitely a controversial figure (but interesting none the less!).

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/14/bo...

I recently graduated from an MA program where I studied Shakespeare and Renaissance Drama. In my program, though we were all aware of Bloom’s legacy, we rarely discussed his works. I mostly read his work in my undergrad classes. This is somewhat addressed in the NYT article.

I've just returned from a day at the Zoo with my family, and looking at all those animals actually made me quite hungry so that I got out my barbecue - not at the Zoo, of course, but as soon as we arrived at home - and prepared something to eat ...

Hunger, however, was not the first, nor the primary, feeling I experienced when seeing most of the animals, but rather awe and also tranquillity. Have you ever spent some time watching rhinoceroses doing their rhinoceros things? It is incredibly soothing to contemplate rhinoceroses because they are both nimble - when roused - and dignified, and they seem as old as the hills - and if it had not been for my wife and children, I would probably have spent at least an hour in front of their compound, just watching them stand there and from time to time move. Tapirs are almost equally soothing animals, as are horses, by the way. But then I can see horses any day, whereas I have to drive one hour to see rhinos or tapirs. I do love watching the breaking of waves on the beach, or the ripples of a river, and could do so for hours - but today I noticed that rhinos are at least as soothing.

I know it sounds odd, but just try it. Go and watch a rhino, or even better, two or three.

Tristram wrote: "I've just returned from a day at the Zoo with my family, and looking at all those animals actually made me quite hungry so that I got out my barbecue - not at the Zoo, of course, but as soon as we ..."

I used to love watching the elephants at our Seattle zoo just for this reason. The zoo moved them away a year or two ago because they couldn't keep them in optimal conditions, and I'm glad they did. But I still miss them.

Tristram wrote: "I've just returned from a day at the Zoo with my family, and looking at all those animals actually made me quite hungry so that I got out my barbecue - not at the Zoo, of course, but as soon as we ..."

I'm sure that after a day of bonding with the animals you were grilling veggie kabobs, right?

I've never thought of rhinos as being soothing. I guess the key factor is the barrier between the two of you. The next time I visit the zoo (which may be soon -- my granddaughter is enamored with elephants at the moment, but has never seen a real one), I will stop by the rhino enclosure, think of you, and wait for that peaceful, easy feeling to envelop me.

Question: Does anyone else have Dickens quotes, or catch phrases, if you will, that have worked there way into your day to day speech? If so, let's hear them! I'm sure most speakers of the English language drop some quotes from A Christmas Carol from time to time, even if they're not big Dickens fans.

I ask because I heard myself paraphrasing Louisa Chick (Dombey) yesterday - and not for the first time - saying that "it's important to make the effort" in the same imperious tone I always imagined her using.

Occasionally, when asked if I wouldn't mind performing a task, in my mind I'll think, "Barkis is willin'" but so far I haven't said it out loud. :-)

Some others for me:

~ a common one: Please Sir, I want some more.
~ Janet! Donkeys! (don't ask me the context of the conversations in which this one might naturally occur!)
~ Count to five and twenty, Tattycoram.
~ The wind is coming from the East.
~ Shake me up, Judy!

And I often think this one, but it's too cumbersome for me to actually quote it accurately:

~Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

Of course, no one ever gets the references. But hope springs eternal that someday someone will, and I'll know I've found a kindred spirit!

I think I know of one that some of you use that now pops into my head from time to time. Let's see if anyone mentions it.

Funny you mention this today, since just last night watching the Astros game and we were batting and needed more runs to keep ahead of the other team, I said, "Please Sir, I want some more."

Guess it worked, we are headed to the World Series, Yay!

Bobbie wrote: "Funny you mention this today, since just last night watching the Astros game and we were batting and needed more runs to keep ahead of the other team, I said, "Please Sir, I want some more."

Guess..."

I love the way you fit that in.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Bobbie wrote: "Funny you mention this today, since just last night watching the Astros game and we were batting and needed more runs to keep ahead of the other team, I said, "Please Sir, I want som..."

Congratulations on the win. I think this series will be a great pitching duel, given the staffs of each team.

We'll see. Though with games going to midnight, it's past my bedtime.

I have two I use when the right occasion presents itself but no one has ever picked up their Dickensian origin.

When talking about a person’s knowledge or experience “extensive and peculiar” and “massive and concrete.”

I also love the phrase “makes your flesh creep.”

Mary Lou wrote: "Question: Does anyone else have Dickens quotes, or catch phrases, if you will, that have worked there way into your day to day speech? If so, let's hear them! I'm sure most speakers of the English ..."

Great question! I don't think I'm alone in playing around with the first and last lines of Tale of Two Cities.

And who is it around here who advocates for "what larks!" Peter?

I'm not aware of using Dickensian things most of the times. But after reading this discussion I might have been more aware :-P My husband is making a dungeons and dragons-character with as many classes (professions so to say) as possible, and talked about that, and I heard myself say 'Oh, so he's a Richard! Tries all things possible for a wile to find out they're not his thing.' Cue blank stare of husband, who off course never read Bleak House.

I find with Wordsworth, above all, that certain lines and words stay with me in greater numbers than other writers or poets.

But Dickens is a close second. I forget where I read it, but when I did, I enjoyed this line of his a lot:

Bores have succeeded dragons.

Peter wrote: “extensive and peculiar” and ““massive and concrete.” I also love the phrase “makes your flesh creep.”.."

I'm sad to say that the origin of these phrases isn't jumping out at me, although I've certainly heard about flesh crawling, if not creeping. Do you remember where Dickens used them? I particularly like the "extensive and peculiar" line.

Julie wrote: "I don't think I'm alone in playing around with the first and last lines of Tale of Two Cities.

And who is it around here who advocates for "what larks!" Peter? ..."

Ding, ding, ding! "What larks!" is the phrase I was alluding to. I'm glad you got it! And you're definitely not alone in playing around with A Tale of Two Cities. Accurately put, as well. I can never remember the exact quotes.

Jantine wrote: " I heard myself say 'Oh, so he's a Richard! Tries all things possible for a wile to find out they're not his thing.' Cue blank stare of husband, who off course never read Bleak House. ..."

If it makes you feel better, I understood it immediately! And my husband has given up trying to figure out all the various literary, lyric, and movie references I sprinkle into my conversations. It would probably annoy people if they actually realized how much I do it.

John wrote: "I forget where I read it, but when I did, I enjoyed this line of his a lot:

Bores have succeeded dragons...."

I didn't remember that one, so googled it. The fuller quote is "The age of chivalry is past. Bores have succeeded to dragons" and none of the links that came up said where it came from. Some attributed it to Benjamin Disraeli - I wonder which of them actually coined the phrase. Do you pull it out and use it, John? I can see myself thinking it (if not actually saying it) at those moments when people don't bother to hold the door for me as I'm approaching. :-)

Mary Lou wrote: "John wrote: "I forget where I read it, but when I did, I enjoyed this line of his a lot:

Bores have succeeded dragons...."

I didn't remember that one, so googled it. The fuller quote is "The age ..."

Very interesting. For some reason, I remembered it, and I thought I had read it in one of Dickens' books as a line from a character. It is also possible I may have read it in Thomas Hardy. In a way, it sounds more like Hardy than Dickens.

John wrote: "It is also possible I may have read it in Thomas Hardy..."

I wonder if it was one of those phrases that finds its way into popular vernacular and was commonly used. Like... what? "I'm king of the world!" or "May the force be with you," or something. Still... somebody had to say these things first, before everyone else picks them up.

Mary Lou wrote: "John wrote: "It is also possible I may have read it in Thomas Hardy..."

I wonder if it was one of those phrases that finds its way into popular vernacular and was commonly used. Like... what? "I'm..."

I never thought the phrase had any impact or notoriety. I could be wrong, though. It stuck in my mind for a long time and I thought it was Dickens.

Julie wrote: "Mary Lou wrote: "Question: Does anyone else have Dickens quotes, or catch phrases, if you will, that have worked there way into your day to day speech? If so, let's hear them! I'm sure most speaker..."

Hi Julie

Good memory. I love the phrase “what larks” as does Jean. In fact, it is Jean who started me enjoying the phrase so much.