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Writing Advice
I guess that one can follow Vonnegut's rules if one aspires to write like Vonnegut. There are many great authors out there and many styles. My personal aspiration is to develop my own recognizable writing voice; I might be curious as to the opinions of best selling authors but if I see a list of rules, I am just tempted to break them all intentionally and thoroughly. However, sometimes I just agree with what some people say. For example, I sort of follow rule #7; I imagine my ideal reader and write for that imaginary person just for the sake of consistency and to have a guideline of where I am going with the story. My ideal reader is very curious and hopes for deeper flavors, fun, and complexity, and if I shake her worldview a bit she is happier than if everything is as expected.
Those are all good ideas. I wonder what list he would have made five years later, or earlier. Elmore Leonard also made a list.1. Never open a book with weather.
2. Avoid prologues.
3. Never use a verb other than said to carry dialogue.
4. Never use an adverb to modify the verb said.
5. Keep your exclamation points under control.
6. Never use the words suddenly or all hell broke loose.
7. Use regional dialect, patois sparingly.
8. Avoid detailed descriptions of characters.
9. Don't go into great detail describing places and things.
10. Try to leave out the part that readers tend to skip.
Jim wrote: "8. Avoid detailed descriptions of characters."I love this one. I rarely even give ethnic details other than the clues of a person's name and hometown. When I do, it's at the end of the book. I feel people should be free to cast their characters how they'd like. Want an all Filipino Cast? Sure, as long as you're okay with their Boston accents, so am I. Just a few details on body types or important quirks, and I'm back to the plot.
I think advice that's as close to perfect as it can get is: Write the story you want to read.Especially today the potential audience for your story is endless. If there is a story that doesn't exist but you desperately want to read, odds are someone else wants to read that story too. Who better to write it than you?
Heather wrote: "I think advice that's as close to perfect as it can get is: Write the story you want to read.Especially today the potential audience for your story is endless. If there is a story that doesn't exi..."
I totally agree with this advice. It falls in line with Jerry Bruckheimer's philosophy and the way he produces his movies. "I make movies that I want to see." This was also the driving force in my first book and its sequel in which I am currently working on.
To be perfectly honest I was totally nervous to publish my book. It actually took my girlfriend to hit the publish button on my computer lol. I was completely surprise by the response it received and by how many people were actually interested in it. I am by no means a professional or award winning author and I write in my spare time whenever I can fit it in, but I am thankful for everyone who has read it and providing me the motivation to keep going.
Of course none of this would have happenned if I didn't have the drive to write something that I wished I had to read in the earlier days of my life.
I'm good with all of Vonnegut's 8 basics. They are a good reminder. He's just about a perfect writer. :)
As for Elmore Leonard, 1 was a real pest. It rules out such opening as "It was a dark and stormy night", which may be the most famous opening in literature !!!!
Ian wrote: "As for Elmore Leonard, 1 was a real pest. It rules out such opening as "It was a dark and stormy night", which may be the most famous opening in literature !!!!"Maybe that's what Elmore was thinking about when he made up the rule.-)
The one of Vonnegut's I disagree with is to dump everything on them as soon as possible. If you do that, then why should they read the book. I'm sure though that he didn't mean backstory. Leonard's are good too. If you write the story you would want to read, then delete all the boring stuff you added works for me.
I'm like others, I don't need a lot of details. give me a general overview and I'm good. I could care less about the flounces on the gown or the knot in the mans ascot. If it's important, include it. If not, delete. I don't need to know what they had for lunch as a 5 y/o unless it poisons them and affects the current situation.
There are a lot of rules...you just need to know when to break them. I still like "It was a dark and stormy night." if it is center stage to what is happening. I also like prologues if they serve a purpose such as giving you a heads up on a character or a crucial happening from the past. The one I didn't see was nix the dream sequences unless it is crucial to the story.
9. Don't go into great detail describing places and things.Jules Verne is turning in his grave!
Heather wrote: "I think advice that's as close to perfect as it can get is: Write the story you want to read.Especially today the potential audience for your story is endless. If there is a story that doesn't exi..."
I agree, I started writing because the mysteries I read had no imagination.
Mod
"The greatest American short story writer of my generation was Flannery O'Connor (1925-1964). She broke practically every one of my rules but the first. Great writers tend to do that."
This is important because, while his rules are wonderful, no one should feel tied to every rule all the time.
And to prove I know what I'm talking about, here's me and Vonnegut having a pow wow in a creepy motel about four years ago:
Love Vonnegut, love his #5...all my trilogy books start around the end, kinda like Slaughterhouse Five and Cat's Cradle did (these are the first two Vonnegut books I read). Do not like Leonard's #3 (because things "said" can be "said" as a blurt, a smirk, a snark, a sneer, a giggle etc. or even a snort) but the rest of his list is okay.As for characters, if your character is associated with a job (such as a cop...mine are rock stars!) then you should have this character do what one would expect this type of character to do (such as sex, drugs, and rock and roll... etc.) If your story is about a cop, then a cop is gonna do what a cop is gonna do--solve crimes and issue traffic tickets (bwahahahahahahah).
After reading A Good Man is Hard to Find! 
Rule 11: break the rules (if only occasionally).
Jim wrote: "Those are all good ideas. I wonder what list he would have made five years later, or earlier. Elmore Leonard also made a list.1. Never open a book with weather.
2. Avoid prologues.
3. Never use a..."
I totally love Leonard both for his writing and for his rules. I hasten to add he broke them all at one point or another. He also said that his most important rule is the following (and it doesn't get any better than this): 'if it (a paragraph) sounds like writing write it again'.
Unbeatable advice
M.L. wrote: "After reading A Good Man is Hard to Find! "Impossible not to love good ol' Flannery....read both her novels and tons of short stories. And I'm not even a member of "The Church of Christ Without Christ!"
Magnus wrote: I totally love Leonard both for his writing and for his rules. I hasten to add he broke them all at one point or another. He also said that his most important rule is the following (and it doesn't get any better than this): 'if it (a paragraph) sounds like writing write it again'.I love that one, too. Leonard also explained when it was alright to break any of the rules, giving examples of other authors who did it well.
Jim wrote: "Elmore Leonard also made a list.1. Never..."
"Never" is too big a word for me.
Jim wrote: "Leonard also explained when it was alright to break any of the rules, giving examples of other authors who did it well."That's the thing, isn't it? Rules are made to be broken. If we all stuck to the rules all of the time, nothing exciting and new would happen.
That said, it's been very interesting reading about these different sets of rules that authors had, especially when they contradict each other! :)
I love writing rules in general. I never encountered a list I never read through. After I read, I assess how many of those rules I never keep up with or tweak and how far I've come in my writing journey.
I empathize with Micah. I have adopted the following rule of thought; any use of the following words in a statement:1. Never
2. Always
3. Everyone
4. Nobody
5. Or any other modifier that includes “all people”
Means that the statement is inherently false.
Hello,Theses rules are handy for writers but following it rigidly can make me loose my style of writing.
Moronke wrote: "Hello,Theses rules are handy for writers but following it rigidly can make me loose my style of writing."
It's more like the Pirate code. They're more like guidelines really.
exactly. I don't think they were intended to be taken too literally in the first place, especially since we know the very authors came up with them broken them. I rather see them as a part of brain storming, looking at things from a different angle.
Magnus wrote: "I don't think they were intended to be taken too literally in the first place..."In the gaming world we call it RAI vs RAW: Rules as Intended versus Rules as Written.
If you go RAW things can become too stiff and stilted. RAI allows you to bend the rules and retain flexibility.
I feel I have some stories that make the reader mad they rooted for one of my characters (#2) so long before really getting to know him/her. In this era of social media record keeping, I think a lot of opinions will shift constantly and without warning. I probably need to have some backup people to cheer for from now on.
Phillip wrote: "I feel I have some stories that make the reader mad they rooted for one of my characters (#2) so long before really getting to know him/her. In this era of social media record keeping, I think a lo..."What do you mean by backup people?
Never read any of Elmore Leonard’s work. Mark Twain said, “The difference between fiction and non-fiction is that fiction has to be believable.”That’s how I try to write. Make the characters human, the places real, and the danger dangerous.
Rob wrote: "What do you mean by backup people?"I just meant having more people from different factions the reader can root for. If you decided the good guys aren't good enough, you can shift to a more sympathetic villain (anti-villain?) as a backup character to root for.
I just meant having more people from different factions the reader can root for. If you decided the good guys aren't good enoughThe reader cheers for the protagonist, our viewpoint character. If they don’t, you’ve failed. Remember, we’re not writing a history of events in some fictional character’s lives. Our goal, as E. L. Doctorow so well said: “Good writing is supposed to evoke sensation in the reader. Not the fact that it’s raining, but the feeling of being rained upon.” We want our readers to feel as if they’re living the story, in real-time, as-the-protagonist.
That’s why we can’t use the report-writing skills of our school-days. We don’t tell the reader, “He wept at his father’s funeral,” we make the reader weep.
I like the idea of writing to please just one person. I think that I would focus more on delivering my story then - not continually worrying about what "they" say, but concentrating on my "target audience." I think writing the book that I would like to read (seen earlier in the messages) is good advice.This is my first post to a group discussion, so I hope that I am doing this right.
You are doing it right. I like the idea of writing what I want to read. I find that it works, making my target audience not necessarily me, but those who enjoy the types of books that I do and 'flit' around with various genres.
B.A. and Ann,I agree, writing for or what I wanted to read was a big help. I wanted a different vampire, once I had that, I created the story.
B.A. wrote: "You are doing it right. I like the idea of writing what I want to read. I find that it works, making my target audience not necessarily me, but those who enjoy the types of books that I do and 'fli..."I agree. I actually bill myself as "The Eclectic Author." I simply can't contain myself to just one genre.
Mod
Seems redundant. All authors are eclectic.
B.A. wrote: "You are doing it right. I like the idea of writing what I want to read. I find that it works, making my target audience not necessarily me, but those who enjoy the types of books that I do and 'fli..."Thanks. It sounds like writing for those people, and also to them.
Jeffrey wrote: "B.A. and Ann,I agree, writing for or what I wanted to read was a big help. I wanted a different vampire, once I had that, I created the story."
I like that approach. Once you know your vampire, you know what story this vampire can have, perhaps?
Dwayne wrote: "Debra wrote: ""The Eclectic Author.""Seems redundant. All authors are eclectic."
Dwayne, I respectfully disagree. I think most authors stick to the same genre when writing. I don't. I write mysteries, romance, comedies, coming of age stories, stories about depression, Native Americans, and I just finished one with seniors citizens going on a wild adventure.
I think most authors stick to the same genre when writing. I don'..."I never considered myself 'eclectic', but so many authors write a variety of genres. You can label my books as historical romance, BUT I have westerns, fictional biographies, mysteries (trad & now cozy), medieval, adventure.
Sounds interesting, especially the fictional biographies. How do they work?
Debra wrote: "Sounds interesting, especially the fictional biographies. How do they work?":) Mine are fictional accounts of true heroines in history - they are based upon actual people and events yet fictionalized due to lack of accurate documentation of every aspect of their life.
Sounds really awesome. I imagine the research would be overwhelming at times. Good for you.
The only upside of self publishing is that you get to write whatever and however the hell you want. Even if it's in a made up genre.
Anne,It made writing my story easier. I had a different vampire, a brief history of them, and s story.
I wasn’t restricted to the traditional vampire troupe, yet I did work it in. I may have a fictional world but I have created its historical documents.
I think that is important. The created world needs a specific order.
Mod
Only? What about -your- choice of cover, in times when many publishers put out books looking quite generic, to save money?
What about not having to go through the hamster wheel of querying agents, which is just as "fun" as looking for a job but three times as frustrating?
Nah, not the "only" advantage at all.
(edited for typos)
Oh, I love being an Indie author. It's a lot of work, but I retain control (a biggie for me, especially what to include in the book), I don't have to put up with pressure of finishing a book, I can change things if the book turns out a dud, ...
Wanjiru wrote: "Oh, I love being an Indie author. It's a lot of work, but I retain control (a biggie for me, especially what to include in the book), I don't have to put up with pressure of finishing a book, I can..."Yup, all of this. It's why I love it too. My books are my own and exactly as I want them to be.
1.Use the time of a total stranger in such a way that he or she will not feel the time was wasted.
2.Give the reader at least one character he or she can root for.
3.Every character should want something, even if it is only a glass of water.
4.Every sentence must do one of two things—reveal character or advance the action.
5.Start as close to the end as possible.
6.Be a sadist. No matter how sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to them—in order that the reader
may see what they are made of.
7.Write to please just one person. If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia.
8.Give your readers as much information as possible as soon as possible. To heck with suspense. Readers should have such complete understanding of what is going on, where and why, that they could finish the story themselves, should cockroaches eat the last few pages.
I agree most strongly with #6, but I don't agree with #4. My stories have high stakes and action scenes. I hate suicide missions that turn out just rosy in the end (#6). I don't agree all words must be about character and plot progression. This leads to the claim that "it was too fast paced." I think their should be some misdirection. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar kind of stuff (#4).
Where do you stand?