Miévillians discussion

Hi guys, Part 2 is pretty long, so I thought it best to make thread 2 up to chapter 30 only, so as to divide the amount of reading we need to do between the threads a bit more even.

As the novel continues, CM starts to suffuse the story more and more with magic and sorcery, and makes it very clear that in this world, the supernatural is actually for real and not just gobbledygook...

We've met the Teuthies and the weird tattoo-man (which still doesn't make quite sense to me) and moved on. Billy and Dan are fugitives and Collingswood and Baron seem a bit lost..

Oh, and we have yet another horrible murder at the hands of Subby and Goss.

So, what do you guys think of the Teuthies and of the tattoo thing and of what they do to people - the latter is pretty reminiscent of the Remade, isn't it?

Honestly, the early chapters of this section were such a jumble for me that I'm not even sure what the Tattoo is. I just remember Billy doing a lot of running... Urk. It's become increasingly clear to me as I go (on Chapter 24 now, I think) that I may need to go back and re-read the earlier bits.

At first I detested the Theuthis cult, because as Billy's abductors and captors, and later even as his pseudo-worshippers, there was nothing which endeared them to me. But seeing them from another perspective, as a family and community and purpose for Dane, and that fostering in turn leading to Dane's protecting Billy with his life, has softened my view. We're seeing the cult in crisis, and people rarely act their best in a crisis, because their options are limited.

As for Baron and Collingswood, I love their banter. I particularly adored Baron's spontaneous creation of the conjunction "but-stroke-and":

"Just you wait. That's not all. There's an 'and'. Or maybe I should say a 'but'. Is there a word that means both?"
"Get on with it, guv."
"So that body's been preserved like that for a century. But-stroke-and. Have you heard of GG Allin?"

It tickled me so much I tried it on my colleague Beverly today when responding to a query by electronic mail, but/and it didn't work very elegantly. It's a marvelous invention, though, if you ask me; Miéville should definitely be applauded. It feels kind of awkward, but/and I expect one needs to get the hang of it. In time I will!

Ok, I'm caught up through chapter 30 now. Time to rejoin the discussion.

And straight to my favorite bit of this entire book that just happens to be in this section - the familiars strike. I love the idea. And it's the one that's so easy to play just for shits and giggles, but Mieville easily manages to hit quite a serious note here, and somehow the little scene of breaking up the insects strike by mindlessly crushing them with heavy boots had the desired disturbing effect on me. A bit of well-thought socialism is what what was so far missing from this book (I'm also reading 'Doctor Zhivago' now, so the revolutionary years struggles and workers rights are always on my mind as of lately).

Wati is a character I love dearly, and together with Dane Parnell he is getting quite a bit of page time here, which is a relief because I still dislike Billy (I just can't help it!) and seeing the page time given to more interesting characters is great. Wati's story - 'I will NOT do it!' - and his eternity-long struggle for organized justice is something I'd read a whole book about, easily.

Collingswood and Baron - still loving the interactions between the two, sort of exasperated father and a moody teenager here. But after their interaction with Marge I remembered why I disliked Collingswood the first time around. She tends to come across as an entitled selfish disrespectful brat while dealing with people at their most vulnerable, and her treating Marge as something beneath her and quite dispensable, unworthy of any attention grated on me then and continues to do so now.

But/and J., what feels a bit awkward about but/and is that it sounds like butt to me. Though that does fall in the realm of juvenilia, I know...

Re all the strikes: trust CM to write a Marxist version of Egyptian burial rites and European magical practices... heh heh.

Hmm, strange how people are different, because I cannot for the life of me see why people dislike Billy. How would you people have preferred him to be instead?

Regarding Collingswood. I think we have noticed by now that Dr Mieville tends to put on a big 'rebel' act, which is, in some ways, rather a bit hypocritical, because he only shows rebelliousness in some instances; take for instance his manner of dress and his piercings and tatts. These are of course the prime signs of a rebel, but then, on the other hand, he is intelligent, nerdy, well-mannered and soft-spoken; so, a sort of noble savage, if you will.

To me, Collingswood so far appears to be his sort of token rebel character... and in her case, she probably goes pretty much more of the way than CM himself towards being a "rebel" character with her clothing, her sassy behaviour and the rest of it...

I know what you mean about it sounding awkward, Traveller. I'd mentioned to my girlfriend that I'd used "but-stroke-and", and I think she got the wrong idea at first! :D

Nataliya, I completely agree about the scene in Marge's flat. Collingswood doesn't seem to consider the former as if she were a person at all, rather just a piece in her investigatory puzzle---and we learn shortly, a completely inconsequential piece. That didn't ingratiate her to me, either.

Baron seemed quite blasé on the matter, too. I wonder if it's because he think it's hopeless to try, or if there's self-interest: is he reluctant to lose such a valuable officer, even if it means an erosion of discipline?

J. wrote: "I know what you mean about it sounding awkward, Traveller. I'd mentioned to my girlfriend that I'd used "but-stroke-and", and I think she got the wrong idea at first! :D

Nataliya, I completely agr..."

Did you tell your GF that you had used but-stroke-and on a female colleague, J.? ...because I can certainly see how it might be a problem if a guy told his GF that... XD

Hmm, yes, and I can agree with you guys that both Baron and Collingswood seem pretty callous about what poor Marge must be going through... :( ..but then CM has tended to portray his police/lawkeepers as callous people generally speaking? .... or is that just me?

I'm not so sure about that, Traveller. To me the police in The City & The City didn't come off as callous. On the other hand, if you consider the actual police to be irrelevant and look at Breach as the lawkeepers, there's definitely a stronger case, so you may have a point...

I'm not so sure either. This representation of law enforcement is quite different ... We've got callousness to a degree here, but in TC&TC we have a somewhat broody introspective cop who's gentler in his justice. Maybe it's the difference in realities?

Here's London, albeit an underworld/hidden world London. But in TC&TC it's entirely fantasy. Even if the cities there have some Earth parallels.

Maybe CM has a beef about London's inner workings? We know he does about the social system so maybe it all ties into the familiar strikes. After all, justice in Kraken seems best handled by cults and ancient beings...

I think the brutal police-state type of image that we got in the Bas-lag novels probably made quite an impression on me...

This article might be interesting to readers of Kraken...
http://animals.howstuffworks.com/mari...

..and this one even more so - in fact it mentions our Teuthie!
http://animals.howstuffworks.com/mari...

I was wondering what "scabbing" meant in this context, btw? Someone who disregards a strike?

Traveller wrote: "I was wondering what "scabbing" meant in this context, btw? Someone who disregards a strike?"

Yes. A scab is a strike-breaker.

Traveller wrote: "Regarding Collingswood. I think we have noticed by now that Dr Mieville tends to put on a big 'rebel' act, which is, in some ways, rather a bit hypocritical, because he only shows rebelliousness i..."

You think so? It's interesting if this character is little but a requisite rebel since her potential can be so huge (and for the life of me, from my previous read I cannot remember whether her potential was ever realized).
Because he did such a wonderful job with the supernatural rebel Wati, too bad Collingswood is failing to live up to the standard on the human side of things.

J. wrote: "I know what you mean about it sounding awkward, Traveller. I'd mentioned to my girlfriend that I'd used "but-stroke-and", and I think she got the wrong idea at first! :D

Nataliya, I completely agr..."

As far as Baron and Collingswood go, maybe Allen is right and their seeming indifference and disregard of everything that does not directly involve their present inquiry is a commentary on the law enforcement in the present day - something I'd expect from Mieville given that he's quite vocal on social injustices when he puts his mind to it - just see London's Overthrow.

Of course, it can just be the common in 'magical' literature theme of everything mundane being beneath the characters, the approach that 'Muggle' stuff is of little to no interest to anyone.

I also thought that police in TC&TC had a better, more humane side to it, as Allen and J noted - but, as J. said, maybe it's because in the end nothing but the Breach really mattered, and so the police was just the pseudo-power.

My gut reaction to Collingswood's behavior is that they are working on other-than-natural stuff and thus don't really function 'naturally'.

Collingswood reminds me strongly of the female lead in the mini-series The Bridge (Bron in the original Swedish), and so she seemed to react as I expected.

Ruth wrote: "My gut reaction to Collingswood's behavior is that they are working on other-than-natural stuff and thus don't really function 'naturally'.

Collingswood reminds me strongly of the female lead in..."

So do you think that her demeanor is the result of her abilities then?

I think her lack of empathy is part and parcel with her character. For me, it fits.

Collingswood definitely doesn't have the same inhibitions as a typical person. If you could give people headaches when they annoy you and no one can stop you or even prove you did it, would you act any differently? I'm sure we all like to think we would, but when it's such a part of you, do normal rules even enter into your thoughts? I don't know.

I don't think she's a good person, but she is an interesting character, and on that level I can certainly appreciate her. One can disconnect fictional characters from our usual ethical compass; that's how we can root for antiheroes, no?

I have yet to read further, but I will this evening. Lots to see, still!

now that i am caught up and have dutifully read all commentary i have a few observations/reactions.
First to clear up what i amsure is just an awkward placement of words and not a scathing inditement when trav is callingout CM for hypocrisy...surely youdont mean that intelligence is not a quality normally applied to a rebel or that, by implication, rebels are dum.

@Natalya i am having to temper your remarks with your confessed antipathy to Billy. I'mwithTrav in not getting why he would evoke that response for i have found myself warming tiwards him everytime we meet. Especially endearing to me is his continuing concern for Leon and even Marginalia
what floors me is no reference or reaction to the truly icky scene with the tattoo and all that s&m

Magdelanye wrote: "First to clear up what i amsure is just an awkward placement of words and not a scathing inditement when trav is callingout CM for hypocrisy...surely youdont mean that intelligence is not a quality normally applied to a rebel or that, by implication, rebels are dum...."

...er... so are you by this comment implying Collingswood is "dumb"/unintelligent? I personally don't see her in such a light, and I never said that I actually disliked her character....

Regarding my comment re Dr Mieville; I said "slightly hypocritical" in the sense that he yet plays by many of society's rules and benefits from that establishment that he tends to attack. ..but I was obviously in an uncharitable mood that day, and should probably greatly qualify those comments of mine.

It's kind of how, to me, Karl Marx was a hypocrite because he lived off his noble/bourgeois family and connections' money....but a lot less in Dr Mieville's case.

@ Magdelanye: I find it strange that Billy grates on my nerves so. After all, I adore Richard Mayhew of 'Neverwhere' - the role Billy fulfills in 'Kraken'. I'm not sure what it is - maybe the helplessness that he projects, or the level of naïveté, who knows? But since the doesn't bother me in other books, I must conclude it's something about the way Mieville portrays him. But I'm still pretty early in the book (must catch up!) and I'm trying to get over my Billy-prejudice. I do remember that his character improves a bit as the book continues, so I'm looking forward to it.

As for Tattoo - I made a mistake reading that scene over dinner. Never repeating that, that's for sure. Same applies to any Goss & Subby scenes. Mieville can portray ickiness in a way that's too graphic for my overactive imagination.

I'm certainly seeing Billy gain more confidence where I am now (Chapter 36 or so), which is nice.

@Nataliya: Hmmm...And I generally detest the role of fake naivete a la casteneda. Billy just seems like a sweet, peter pan kind of guy. And then you profess affection for Wati, who creeps me out entirely and reminds me of that eerie stone entity that consummed its lover in Scar.... And its not Tattoo so much as the guy with the electrodes being used as mouthpiece, that disgusted me.

@trav '....because he only shows rebelliousness in some instances; take for instance his manner of dress and his piercings and tatts. These are of course the prime signs of a rebel, but then, on the other hand, he is intelligent, nerdy, well-mannered and soft-spoken; so, a sort of noble savage, if you will."

not referring to Coll here at all...is it clear from reading above quote, the implication that rebels may be this or that but not intelligent, nerdy, well-mannered and soft spoken. And I claim they can be all of the above!

Regarding Billy ... I'll echo Nataliya in that I'm not so certain what it is, either, considering I, too, like those naive characters who get caught up in things. If you've read 'Railsea' then there's a good one there. But you got me thinking with 'Neverwhere.' I think I liked Richard because he's more the focus of the story. Here, Billy's not focused on so much early on. Almost too many characters to focus on - all as strong as the one you read about the chapter before. Billy does grow on you though as J says.

Altogether, isn't it funny how much we need these characters to make sense of our literary worlds, even the weird ones :)

Magdelanye: I love your references to Scar. It made me remember that - since I read Kraken first - I thought of Wati when I read the part about the ethereal stone entity. Although it scared me more than Wati. Don't know why I accepted Wati as well as I did without getting creeped out. I somehow got the image of a lovable Easter Island statue in my head!

Magdelanye wrote: "@trav '....because he only shows rebelliousness in some instances; take for instance his manner of dress and his piercings and tatts. These are of course the prime signs of a rebel, but then, on the other hand, he is intelligent, nerdy, well-mannered and soft-spoken; so, a sort of noble savage, if you will."

not referring to Coll here at all...is it clear from reading above quote, the implication that rebels may be this or that but not intelligent, nerdy, well-mannered and soft spoken. And I claim they can be all of the above!
.."

Hey, I've been a rebel par excellence all my life, i should know! So, no! -the implication is that CM sends mixed signals. (To me, anyway). He dresses and accoutres himself like a goth biker bouncer type, and he stands for the communist party; yet he makes a rather genteel living from teaching the bourgeoisie and writing for them, and being very uppity with his vocab and so forth. You needn't take what i said there so seriously, i was mainly just having a little chuckle there; just a teeny weeny one.

Don't worry, Magdelanye, I have a huge soft spot for Dr Mieville, honest! You don't think I would create a group around him if i actually hated him, do you? But seriously, let's relax.

...and yes, i guess i must also seem a conundrum to people as do many of us who aren't walking clichè's, so, point taken.

when I get too creeped out I just gaze at the little author photo on the inside back cover....ahhh, he's just joshing!

think it time for a new thread....
I am enjoying this!

New thread here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Oh, and M, regarding the point where the Tattoo entered the scene was also the point where I myself lost interest in the story. Especially since the narrative became pretty jumbled to me for a while there.

However, after Chapter 30, the story picks up again with all the interesting magical factions and beings... so I'm taking heart and soldiering on again. :)

it was the guy with the electrodes that unerved me.
After all, I loved the Illustrated Man.

Tattoo may be nasty....and not really loooking forward to further encounters. But into the spirit of the book now

I am sorry Trav you have been ill.Hope better soon.
Time for reading in bed??