Mrs. Jernigan's Class discussion
Things They Carried, Group 2
date
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Mod
Nov 7: 1-26pg
Nov 11: 27-52
Nov 14: 53-77
Nov 18: 78-102
Nov 21: 103-127
Dec 2: 128-152
Dec 5: 153-177
Dec 9: 178-202
Dec 12: 203-233
Mod
One: Mortality (Mikaela)
The idea of deaths, dying, killing, and being killed thread throughout the novel as the narrator revisits five deaths over and over and over again. Where does this pattern appear and what does it mean? Does it change as the book continues or does it remain consistent? What is the significance of the pattern and its meaning to the book as a whole?
Two: Narrative Structure (Taylor)
Track the varying narrative structure of the book. What is O'Brien doing with all the different pieces, juxtapositions, ambiguities, etc.? How does the structure shift? When? Why? How does it relate to the themes of the novel as a whole?
Three: Individual Versus Collective Responsibility (Mikaela)
Track the various situations, moments, and events that examine the collective and private roles of man. How does O'Brien investigate both private and public responsibility in war? What does he communicate through this pattern? How does it relate to the novel as a whole?
Four:Ambiguous Morality (Zack C.)
Examine the morality of the characters in the novel and what each represents. How are we do judge them by their actions? Which ones seem to be morally ambiguous? How does this affect our understanding of the story and what purpose does it serve? How has O'Brien utilized these characters for the benefit of his argument? What does he suggest through this developed pattern?
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Another Magician: Something Wicked This Way Comes
After following John Wade through his horrid transformations in O'Brien's In the Lake of the Woods, looks like Fitzgerald provides another chameleon to lead us through this picture show of the Lost Generation. Dick Diver, Carnival Leader/Dream Weaver, takes shape and substance through direct and indirect observations of Rosemary, a lady whose "body hovered delicately on the last edge of childhood" (4). Poor Rosie, she will be drawn to Dick and his high society funhouse, but are her wings strong enough to carry her from its destruction?
The Divers wield culture like "kings," "rajahs," and "princes" (15). As a couple they are as mysterious as the sea- compelling, alluring, yet dangerous like fire. Dick's attentive handling of Rosemary "was all completely there" for "his voice [...] wooed the world" (19). Her reaction to the carnival was simply to let its "expensive simplicity" (21) consume her, but as the narrator quickly reminds us, she was "unaware of its complexity and lack of innocence" (21). Dick's "taking care of her" (21) includes his seductive words as he tells her she "look[s] like something blooming" (22). The god-like nature of the Divers is reinforced by Fitzgerald's characterization of their audience in that they "turned up ashen faces to [them], like souls in Purgatory watching the passage of a mortal" (23). Clearly distinguishing the two groups and the power they wield over others, the narrator gives this perception a duality...a hidden, secretive persona that begins to bleed into the "reality." The veil shifts as an outsider observes a hidden encounter or exchange of words. As she attempts to share her observations, she is silenced. For the Divers have fierce protectors (Cerberus like guardians) driven to guard hidden truths from crushing the "rose-colored" sandcastles built for the amusement and entertainment and seduction of their following.
Mod
Write a 250 word Response (due at the end of class). I have posted a sample on their page to use as a guide. Include the following in your response:
a. A Creative Title
b. Embed Three quotations from your reading into the blog
c. Make a connection to another work of art (film, book, etc.)
d. Post your observations about the story and commentary stating its meaning and significance.
e. Discuss narrative structure of the work and why it matters.
See the sample above.
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What Gives You Strength
The Things They Carried, by Tim O'Brian, follows the life of soldiers as they live in the War of Vietnam. The book mainly follows Jimmy Cross as narrator Tim O'Brian tells of the life of a soldier in action and the hardships they face. The structure is similar to that of the Christopher Nolan Film , Inception, this because they both have a main character who relies on physical possessions to help them throughout their journey. In Inception the main character relies on a totem, and in this novel, the main characters all rely on many things to help them cope with their dangerous circumstances. Jimmy Cross uses things like letters from loved ones and a pebble in his mouth to give him emotional and spiritual strength in these times of hardship. O'Brian claims, "they all carried ghosts (O'Brian 9), which shows the spiritual presence some these men have with some of there loved ones which gives them strength. The structure of the story is linear but also includes many flashbacks that benefit the stories tone. O'Brian tells this story in somewhat of a chronological order but throws in many stories from the past.
NOT COMPLETE
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The Things They Carried
In the novel, "The Things They Carried," the objects in which each soldier bears the weight of, whether they're tangible or abstract, defines them. These objects were either "largely determined by necessity" (O'Brian 10), unfulfilled wishes of love, an "allusion of safety" (17), or "the weight of memory" (21) These are the sole things that remain for the soldiers to keep them sane, somewhat grounded, and reasons to continue living. Although, some carry "their own lives" (22) and "the burden of being alive" (25).
Mod
In the book "Things They Carried" by Tim O'Brian he talks about the depth of the Vietnam War and what it meant to the men that were involved and how it shaped them into the men that they would be for the rest of their life. O'Brian talks a lot about the men in the book and decribes them by saying many different things and using manybdifferent objects. For example "The things they carried were largely determined by necessity. Such as can openers, pocket knives, gum, candy cigs, salt tablets, and others. Just these objects tells us as readers what the men liked, what they enjoyed and what they are all about (O'Brian 2). Also he talks about the problems that they had throughout the war as well. There were many of these problems but one was drugs. For example "they carried six or seven ounces of dope, which for him was a necessity" (O'Brian 3). Last but not least he talks about was all of the pictures that the men carried while they were in war. For example "Almost everyone humped photographs" (O'Brian 4). This just shows the hearts of the men and what they loved the most which was their loved ones and family.
Mod
Cantos I and II
Artifact:
What the Hell - Read and be ready to discuss
Questions to Consider:
1. While the gates predict what is to come, they also suggest what Dante will question. How indeed will he wrestle with sights so gruesome that he faints or calls on us to inspire him - encourage him - push him onward?
2. Based on how he ran from the she-wolf in the dark woods, what do we expect out of our "I am no Aeneas, no Paul?" Why then is he worthy for this journey?
3. Why is Vergil a significant guide for the exiled poet to follow?
4. What parallels does Dante introduce in the opening scene? How will these repeat as the poem continues?
5. How does Dante evoke visual, auditory, olfactory, and kinesthetic imagery as he guides us through Hell?
6. How has Dante's epic lived on in the modern age? Why?
"They all carried ghosts."The Things They Carried is a riveting novel that follows a platoon of American soldiers as the travel through Vietnam. The weight of the items in which they carry, whether tangible or imaginary, weigh each man down as they trudge deep into uncharted territories.
Much like the popular romance movie, Dear John, a young Jimmy Cross dreams of his love back home, Martha, clinging to the tattered pictures of her. Likewise, in the film, John Tyree, played by Channing Tatum, goes off to war after spending a mere two weeks falling in love with the beautiful Amanda Seyfried (Savannah, in the movie). Making Martha a priority, Cross admits that, "he loved her more than anything, more than his men, and now Ted Lavender was dead because he loved her so much" (6). As time passes and letters exchange, Cross cannot help to wonder what Martha is doing, who she is with, and whether or not their feelings can withstand time. The emotional baggage, and the equipment on their backs, wore down on the men as in Dear John , when Tyree is shot and loses his father, bearing down and destroying a man. After Lavender is shot, Cross blames himself for the death, how "this was something he would have to carry like a stone in his stomach for the rest of the war" (16).
It is interesting how O’ Brien shows Cross’s struggle not only in a dangerous war zone, but also struggles within his heart, as he contemplates how “he hated [Martha]. Yes, he did. Love, too, but it was a hard, hating kind of love” (23). O’ Brien’s powerful use of vivid and realistic imagery gives readers a feel of the lives of the soldiers and their struggles. The novel has a disjointed narrative structure, with flashbacks next to descriptive passages of the things that they carried. O’ Brien shifts to and from flashbacks and a detailed factual plot line, keeping the readers’ on their toes and hooked to the novel.
Mortality "you had to be there, how fast it was, how the poor guy jut dropped like so much concrete. Boom-down, he said. Like cement" (O'Brian 15).
"Because you could die so quickly, each man carried at least one large compress bandage, usually in the helment band for easy access" (11).
"plus the unweighted fear. He was dead weight. There was no twitching or flopping...it was like watching a rock fall...not like the movies where the dead guy rolls around and does fancy spins" (14).
"They carried their own lives" (22).
"Mostly he felt pleased to be alive...he enjoyed not being dead" (24).
"absolute silence, then the wind, then sunlight, then voices. It was the burden of being alive" (25).
Mod
1. Read over your Moderator's Post.
2. Access and read/view the link.
3. Answer the questions using specific evidence from text to support your observations.
4. Use at least 3 quotes to support.
5. Response should be 250 words.
6. Same blog gradesheet.
Mod
A puppy and baby water buffalo are brutally killed by the soldiers. What is the importance of these soldiers killing a young, innocent animal?
On page 58, O' Brien says, "I was a coward. I went to the war." Why do you think he places an act of bravery as being cowardly?
Are his war stories true? O' Brien goes back and forth on the truthfulness of his stories- why do you think he does this so often?
Picture: http://www.mikerophoto.com/Travel/ASI...
The whole book revolves around killing and death and how the soldiers are mainly morally against it, yet the soldier who killed the water buffalo shot it with clear intentions of taking his anger out from recently losing his best friend. Even though he claims that "it wasn't to kill; it was to hurt," the soldier used the death of an innocent creature as an outlet for his mourning of another death (O'Brian 73). Some characters in this nocel also precieve death as almost a joke. For examlpe, when "Azar strapped the puppy to a Claymore antipersonnel mine and squeezed the firing device" (O'Brian 39). He did this act of inhumanity for sheer pleasure and amusement. O'Brian depicts an act of what seems like bravery as cowardly by comparing people's expections of war versus reality. He states that people "like to believe that in a moral emergency we will behave like the heroes of our youth, bravely and forthrightly, without thought of personal loss or discredit" (41).He then personally opines that war is "certain blook [that is] shed for uncertain reasons. [He] saw no unity of purpose, no consensus on matters of philosophy or history or law" (41-42). Therefore, he depicts war as cowardly rather than brave.
His war stories are seemingly true, yet he may be hesitant with the validity of them becuase he is forever scarred from the war and will not want to reminice on the stories, much less the details of the things that burden him.
The death of the animals feels like the way of the soldiers expressing their feelings of anger and sadness towards the loss of their friends. They are dealing with a lot of emotions and therfore have many irrational thoughts and actions. Them killling the animals almost appeared to be an emotional outlet due to their anger, therfore they were angry for their loss that they took it out on the animal."Nobody said much. The whole platoon stood there watching, feeling all kinds of things, but there wasn't a great deal of pity for the watter buffalo." (O'Brien 75) This shows these soldier's feelings on death and how it probab;ly isn't as big of a deal to them as it is to someone who isn't around death everyday.He had a past that is looked at as cowardly and by going to the war maybe he feels as if he was just coping out and leaving all his resposibilities. He has many questions about war and views it as imoral, therefore he is doing something he knows isn't right. He believes that killing other humans over a dissagreement is wrong and not the right way to go about things and by him joining it, he is a hypocrite.He says, "I survived, but it's not a happy ending." (O'Brien 58), showing his sadness towards the way he did things.
Yes I believe that his stories are true and that he might just have so much that has happened in his life that it probably is confusing. He goes back on himself and I don't believe that he neccessarily goes back on it, but he might just make it sound more confusing as if he is going back on himself when he isn't.
Good input Taylor! Regarding your thoughts on O'Brian's perception of war, and considering he was drafted rather than a volunteer, how does that change your viewpoints on what his intentions and opinions were of the war? Was he actually running away from his personal problems?
Mortality"I couldn't make myself be brave. It had nothing to do with morality. Embarrassment, that's all it was" (O'Brian 58).
"A true war story is never moral. It does not instruct, nor encourage virtue, nor suggest models of proper human behavior, nor restrain men from doing the things men have always done. If a story seems moral, do not believe it...you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie" (O'Brian 65).
"That quiet--just listen. There's your moral" (O'Brian 72).
"War is hell. As a moral declaration the old truism seems perfectly true, and yet because it abstracts, because it generalizes, I can't believe it with my stomach. Nothing turns inside" (O'Brian 73).
"War is hell" (O'Brian 75).
"war is just another name for death" (O'Brian 75)
"In war you lose your sense of the definite, hence your sense of truth itself" (O'Brian 76).
Compared to the examples of mortality and death at the beginning of the novel, O'Brian is beginning to depict the war as the ultimate epitome of mortality. He does this by exaggerating and repeating the fact that "war is hell" and "another name for death" whereas in the beginning, he kept exaggerating what the men would do to stay alive. Now he is starting to give his own personal examples of how one internally faces death, as a sign of a clear deadline of existence and portraying mortality.
“He would accept the blame for what happened to Ted Lavender. He would be a man about it.”(24)“They carried all the emotional baggage of men who might die. Grief, terror, love, longing --- these where intangibles”(20)
“All of us, I suppose like to believe that in a moral emergency we will behave like the heroes of our youth, bravely and forthrightly, without thought of personal loss or discredit.”(36)
“I did not want to die. Not ever. But certainly not then, not there, not in a wrong war.”(42)
“A true war story is never moral. It does not instruct, nor encourage virtue, nor suggest models of proper human behavior, nor restrain men from doing the things men have always done.”(65)
“Torture chamber stuff. He didn’t mind blood or pain--- he actually enjoyed combat---but there was something about a dentist that just gave him the creeps.”(83)
All of these quotes are giving some type of insight to the “morality” of the soldiers that being described. There are some events that make it seem as though they do have a sense of morality while at war, but then there are others that may leads us to believe there is none. For instance Cross does feel guilt for Ted’s death and feels as though he needs to work on himself. Then it goes to a quote describing how some enjoy the combat and torturing other people. So, because of this I am lead to believe that there is an ambiguous feeling towards their morality. This is describe in the quote above (65), it implies that there is no morality for them, because they are not told nor can they have normal human behavior while they are at war.
Mortality "War makes you a man; war makes you dead"
(76).
"It was still alive, though just barely, just in the eyes"(76).
"It’s easy to get sentimental about the dead"(82).
Through out the novel the solders use death as a substitute for entertainment, specifically towards animals wile on combat. Even though they are constantly being surrounded by death wile in war whether it’s the death of an enemy, fellow solder, or animal. Death still affects the solders as they become more attached to one another.
Mod
Life's Burden
In the novel "The Things They Carried," the objects in which each soldier bears the weight of, whether they're tangible or abstract, defines them. These objecs were either "largely determined by necessity" (O'Brian 10), unfulilled wishes of love, an "allusion of safety" (17), or "the weight of memory" (21). These are the sole pieces of sanity and hope that remain for the soldiers and reasons to keep them alive. Although, some carry "their own lives" (22) and "the burden of being alive" (25).
Eli in the movie The Book of Eli, can relate to all of these soldiers. His journey through a post-war world consisted of life-threatening encounters and nothing to get him through those predicaments but the things he carried on his back and the weight of his strong belief. He carried around a Bible with him throughout the entirity of his journey, claiming that he would have died without it and that it is the sole reason as to why he is even on the journey insted of merely rotting in the wasteland. Also correllating to the danger exerted in The Book of Eli, the war zone illustrated in "The Things They Carried" is expressed but much more casually. Death is a common factor. It is strange but common for men to "[kill], and [die], because they were embarrassed not to" (27) and "they were afraid of dying but they were even more afraid to show it" (26). Also, the narrative structure skips around to flashbacks and memories to relate the gratitude the men had towards their previous lives compared to the hellish life they are currently living in war and destruction.
Pages 78-102Thread- Phsycological Development
"Though it's odd, you're never more alive than when you're almost dead. You recognize what's valuable. Freshly, as if for the first time, you love what's best in yourself and in the world." Page 78
"Mitchell Sanders was right.[...] it's safe to say that in a true war story nothing is ever absolutely true" Page 78
"For example, we've all heard this one. Four guys go down a trail. A grenade sails out. One guy jumps on it and takes the blast and saves his three buddies. Is it true? The answer matters.
All three quotes carry the writer through this realization about war and what it really means. Throuh ll these stories people have told him, through all the heroism and villany, all the love and the hate, all the beauty and the horror, O'Brien realizes the truth in war stories-there is none. War causes people to lose the good sense that they have to tell a full true story.
Artifact:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKvvO...
Questions:
1. In the starting story, how do the things the men carry help define them as individuals? What are some of the more interesting items?
2. At the end of “How to Tell a True War Story,” O’Brien claims the story he’s just related “wasn’t a war story. It was a love story” (85). How does O’Brien distinguish between a war story and a love story?
3. What's the purpose of splitting the book into short stories instead of chapters?
4. How would the book change if it were told in order of events (chronologically)?
5. V in "V For Vendetta" has a type of ambiguous morality. How does his morality seem to correspond to the idea of "morality" in "The Things they carried?
Right from the start of the novel you notice the significance of the specific things with the person, such as an item that gives them strength emotionally, spiritually, and often physical. Such as Lieutenant Jimmy Cross, "carried letters from a girl named Martha" (1) which gave him emotional strength through hope that he will be able to see her again. These type of things show the emotional side of these very rough and tough men that we normally only see the strong side of, but these items show the softer side to the reader. The things they cary with them also show what is truly important to them. This because since they are always on foot, they must limit what they can take with them, so what they choose to take shows what is truly important to them. O'Brien does with his writing style, he like to leave things up to the reader to determine. Which makes the reader more involved with the story. He tells these stories not fully telling exactly what they're supposed to mean, which makes the reader more involved because they have to interpret it for themselves. He also says, "And in the end, of course, a true war story is never about war. It's about sunlight" (81), which he shows it's about feelings and then says his own specific sorrow with his feelings and how people don't listen to him. O'Brien might do these things to have a different writing style that sets him apart from the normal war stories. He likes the short stories out of order so the reader can piece it all together at the end. If it was in order it would lose that factor that O'Brien intends to make his special. He likes it in this order so that he can also go back to other stories and build of of them and use them for future ones. He also likely intended for the reader to piece it together the way them want and interpret meaning and each take something different away from the stories. Tbis showing his strong use of narrative structure. I have never seen the movie mentioned in question 5 therefore am incapable of answering it with any intent of it being accurate.
In the beginning of the story, the objects that are described resemble each soldier individually. Everything in which they carried is "largely determined by necessity" (O'Brian 10). Although there are indivial and specific objects that each soldier carries to depict their character, all of the object have a common theme of death or "whatever seemed appropriate as a means of killing or staying alive" (15). The objects that strike me as interesting are not the tangible things, but the abstract ones. Each soldier "shared the weight of memory...often, they carried each other, the wounded or weak. They carried infections" (21), again correlating Eli in The Book of Eli who had nothing and no one but his thoughts, beliefs, and his Bible. This represents the overview of mortality throughout the novel, illustrating objects that symbolize the remainder of their lives and foreshadowing their inevitable death.O'Brian distinguished war stories from love stories by simply saying that "a true war story is never about war...It's about love and memory" (79). For example, in the movie Dear John, John refuses to even talk to his father or the love of his life about the deaths he experienced when in the war and even his personal near death experience. A veterin of war is not going to reminice on the moments of death and destruction because the human mind fears the misfortune of mortality; therefore, stories of sheer war will most likely never be expected to be told.
O'Brian splits the novel into short stories and flashbacks for a couple of reasons: reader captivation and enhancing of individual characters' experiences and viewpoints. He skips around to combine shared themes of the stories instead of telling it chronologically. The shared themes ultimately build up to result in the appreciation of life itself and the resent of the misfortune of mortality.
(never seen "V for Vendetta)
Taylor wrote: "Right from the start of the novel you notice the significance of the specific things with the person, such as an item that gives them strength emotionally, spiritually, and often physical. Such as ..."Taylor I have truely enjoyed reading over your beautiful responce. The one thing that I would change is the fact that I posted the video clip from the movie that would have helped you understand the question! :)
Mikaela wrote: "In the beginning of the story, the objects that are described resemble each soldier individually. Everything in which they carried is "largely determined by necessity" (O'Brian 10). Although there ..."Mikaela this is equally as great as Taylors post. The only negative side is the same thing as Taylors, the video is under the artifact.
Mortality"Her body seemed...too firm where the softness used to be. The bubbliness was gone...she would sometimes fall into long elastic silences, her eyes fixed on the dark, her arms folded, her foot tapping out a coded message against the floor" (O'Brian 90).
"I feel close to myself. When I'm out there at night, I feel close to my own body, I can feel my blood moving, my skin and my fingernails, everything...I'm burning away into nothing--but it doesn't matter because I know exactly who I am" (101).
"I believed in God and all that, but it wasn't the religious part that interested me. Just being nice to people, that's all. Being decent" (109).
"I couldn't ever be a real minister, because you have to be super sharp. Upstairs, I mean. It takes brains. You have to explain some hard stuff, like why people die" (109).
"Along the trail there were small blue flowers shaped like bells. The young man's head was wrenched sideways, not quite facing the flowers, and even in the shade a single blade of sunlight sparkled against the buckle of his ammunition belt...the wounds at his neck had not yet clotted, which made him seem animate even in death" (115).
"I was afraid of him--afraid of something--and as he passed me on the trail I threw a grenade that exploded at his feet and killed him" (118).
"I did not hate the youn man; I did not see him as the enemy; I did not ponder issues of morality or politics or military duty...It occurred to me then that he was about to die. I wanted to warn him" (119).
"It was not a matter of live or die. I was in no real peril...Kiowa tried to tell me that the man would've died anyways...it was a good kill, that I was a soldier and this was a war" (120).
"When we dragged [the dead] out, the girl kept dancing. She put the palms of her hands against her ears, which must've meant something" (121).
O'Brian now depicts the appreciation of life and the complexity of humanity and mortality through the deaths that he personally experiences. There are hints of life and remaining emotion in every situation he mentions. With the man he killed, in the midst of death, he mentions the flowers that surround the man and the sunlight which strikes him, ceasing to illustrate the fatality of the situation, but illustrating life. Also, after seeing her home burned down and dead bodies dragged out, the young girl continues to dance while covering her ears, symbolizing her appreciation for her own life while mourning the loss of her loved ones. All of these quotes above are examples of O'Brian coming to a realization that death and mortality is no joke, it is something to be appreciative of and not take for granted.
"He was a slim, dead, almost dainty young man of about twenty. He lay with one leg bent beneath him, his jaw in his throat, his face neither expressive nor inexpressive. One eye was shut. The other was a star- shaped hole" (O'Brien 124)."I mean, I'm not the churchy type. When I was a little kid, way back, I used to sit there on sunday counting bricks in the wall. Church wasn't for me" (O'Brien 114).
"When she was nine, my daughter Kathleen asked if I had ever killed anyone. She knew about the war; she knew I'd been a soldier. "You keep writing these war stories," It was a difficult moment, but I did what seemed right, "Of course not," and then to take her onto my lap and hold her for a while" (O'Brien 125).
"Even now I haven't finioshed sorting it out. Sometimes I forgive myself, other times I don't" (O'Brien 128).
As the novel progresses, O'Brien is becoming more personal with the reader. He has begun to share intiment parts that are very sensitive and raw. He is talking about very personal aspects of his life such as religion and beliefs so that he can connect with the reader in a a way. He does this especially when he tells of the time he first killed someone and talks about it being a young boy and how it made him feel. He talks about how killing the boy made him feel and it truly showed the soft side that we as the reader haven't really seen yet and it is great that he is finally opening up more and making the reader feel like they have a reltaionship with him. Him also telling of the time in which his daughter asked if he had ever killed anyone, it is a very sore subject for him and he of course had to lie and tell her no. This is where sharing this as a writer is very challenging and uncomfortable. He often talks about how hard the whole thing has been on him and how it still affects him today. With O'Brien sharing deep parts of his life, it makes a true realtionship form between himself and the reader.
Artifact: https://www.flickr.com/photos/5749875...Questions:
1. In the chapter "Speaking With Courage", what is so significant about the lake? Explain why he describes it in such depth at the beginning of the chapter and how it symbolizes the war.
2. What is O'Brian's perception on war stories after describing the death of Kiowa? How does this compare to how he described them earlier in the novel?
3. According to O'Brian, what qualifies as true valor and bravery? Do you agree? Explain.
Mortality"Norman Bowker...with his friends, talking about urgent matters, worrying about the existence of God and theories of causation. Then, there had to be war" (O'Brian 123).
"the lake had drowned his friend max Arnold, keeping him out of the war entirely. Max had been one who liked to tai about the existence of God" (124).
"the ribbons looked good on the uniform in his closet...it meant he had been there as a real soldier and had done all the things soldiers do, and therefore it wasn't such a big deal that he could not bring himself to be uncommonly brave" (126).
"I had been forced to omit the shit field and the rain and the death of Kiowa, replacing the is material with events that better fit the book's narrative. As a consequence I'd lost natural counterpoint between the lake and the field. A metaphoric unity was broken. What the piece needed, and did not have, was the terrible killing power of that shit field" (142).
In the first chapter of our reading, O'Brian really accentuates the illustration and symbol of the lake, comparing the admiration of its beauty to the death that it brings. He also claims that it is "like a mirror" (129), which is ironic because life and nature is reflecting the war and destruction. This means that all life and even the most beautiful earthly things fatally terminate, epitomizing the idea of mortality. O'Brian also talks about the characters' beliefs of existence and higher authorities (God), representing the inferiority which humanity resides in, and that God's will for the fate of mankind is mortality: death.
"Yeah, but when I saw the guy, it made me feel- I don't know - like I was listening" (O'Brien 168)."It's time to be blunt. I'm forty-three years old, true, and I'm a writer now, and a long time ago I walked through Quang Ngai Province as a foot soldier" (O'Brien 171).
"I can look at things I've never looked at. I can attach faces to grief and love and pity and God. I can be brave. I can make myself feel again" (O'Brien 172).
"I guess not. But I felt sort of guilty almost, like if I'd kept my mouth shut none of this would've ever happened. Like it was my fault" (O'Brien 168).
As the end of the story approaches quickly O'Brien has now begun to attempt to piece together things stories told throughout the book. He is also being more vivid of his feelings on his relationships with others and his overall circumstances. As the end nears, I believe he will reveal something about his entire experience that will leave the reader questioning about all that they had thought. O'Brien structure has been for the most part very constant and has held together well through this point in the novel.
"He told me that it was a good kill, that I was a soldier and this was war, that I should shape up and stop staring and ask myself what the dead man would've done if things were reversed.(127)"Even now i haven't finished sorting it out. Sometimes I forgive myself, other times I don't.(128)"
"No, I could feel it. He wasn't. Some things you can feel.(147)"
O'Brian uses the ambiguity of morallity throughout his stories to help relate with the cercumstance that they are in. To fully understand the harshness of decision making to survive. The way that they live changes them, some for the better but most for the worst. In this type of scenario it is necessary for an individual to have something to live and fight for. Which also gives them a reason to stay alive which makes them numb to certain feeling at this point. This mindset makes them do things that they would not have done before.
Mod
(Fallon)
Artifact: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/0...
1. How does the speaker's view of courage change over the course of the story?
2. What does this change and perception show about man's understanding of war?
3. Look at the Artifact. What would the speaker's view of the photo be? What would he have to say about it?
From the very start of the novel, O'brian describes all of the solders along with their personal items, reminding them of home and the essentials they each carry on there backs during the war. "What they carried was a partly a function of rank, partly of field speciality"(5). One of the more strange personal items was a pebble that Jimmy cross received from his love Martha as a good luck charm, that he occasionally carries in his mouth. the novel is a love story because on surface cross is in love with Martha and the idea of someone to love, waiting back home in the states for his return. but on and deeper lever he bonds with his fellow solders, in fact they "they carried each other" (15), by looking out for one another. knowing that at any moment another one of there "brother" could parish, together that are learning the value of life by comforting one another as each day another solder us is lost in combat.
The structure of the book is a representation of war, it distorted and unpredictable. by the un-orderly fashion between the solders stories from the war and from there live back home before going into combat. how ever if the stories from the solders were told in order chronologically, it would take away the essence of the book and its correlation to the unexpectancy of war.
I have never seen the movie v for vendetta so I'm unsure how to correlate with it the book.
O'Brien's courage doesn't necessarily change, he more changes as a writer through the story. As the story matures, O'Brien's writing matures with it. His view on courage I believe has been the same since the beginning, but he has just gotten better at portraying it in the story. He has revealed his true feelings of war throughout and is finally explaining. "I didn't complain. In an odd way, though, there were times when I missed the adventure, even the danger, of the real war out in the boonies (O"Brien 183)
in response to hannahs blogThrough out the novel the solders use death as a substitute for entertainment and anger management, specifically towards animals wile on combat. Even though they are constantly being surrounded by death wile in war whether it’s the death of an enemy, fellow solder, or animal. "war makes you a man, war makes you dead"(76). by the solders killing the innocent puppy and water buffalo, it shows how war has began to corrupted there minds and numbed there hearts and feelings.
After being drafted, Tim believes that fighting in war is his calling rather than fleeing to canada, leaving behind everything he has achieved in american. However once Tim entered the war he realizes that war was a false cause that he supported giving him realization of how his cowardice of the fear of change has lead him to a place of constant death, violence and sorrow at one point he questions his quotes "a moral freeze"(54). where he could decide and couldn't act . he concludes this reflection on courage by saying "That old image of myself as a hero, as a man of conscience and courage, all that was just a threadbare pipe dream"(55).
"You can tell a true true war story if it embarrasses you. If you don't care for obscenity, you don't care for the truth"(66). O'brian is giving himself permission to tell the stories that embarrasses him despite how the public will respond trying to in-power the other solder to do the same. for him there is freedom in truthfully sharing his experiences.
Artifact: http://taylorholmes.com/2010/08/02/in...1. Do you believe that at this point in the story that O'Brien has become less worried about others and has started to let the horrors of war cloud over his once known feelings and care for other, and now feels more want for revenge and evil?
2. Along with the first question about his character developing for the worst, is O'Brien changing into a darker person than when we met him, or is it just a temporary thing, or is he just letting the severity of war get to him?
3. As the story has progressed, we have seen what some of these men carry and how it gives them strength in all different kinds of ways. Do you believe that the things they carry with them are similar to that of the totem in the movie "Inception", this because it is something symbolic of something is important to them and may provide them with something like a sense of protection?
Ambiguous MoralityThroughout the entire story O'Brian uses the thread of ambiguous morality to show the theme of fear of shame as motivation. The thread enhances the insight into the characters, because the connection of some type of morallity is an excellent way to relate the character back to the reader. Also it make it evident that war is ambiguous and arbitrary because it forces humans into extreme situations that they do not have an obvious solution. Although when O'Brian talks about the man he might have killed he gets distant he begins to talk in third person and seems as though he does not want to talk about it.
Ambiguous morality is used by O'Brian to show the existence of the theme which is fear of shame which creates motivation. O'Brian's personal experiences show that fear of being shamed by peers is a good motivational tool for war. In he story "On the Rainy River" shows his confusion on morality. When he receives his draft notice he does not want to fight in a war he does not believe in but he also does not want to be seen as a coward. In war people are forces into situation that they do not have a "right" responce too. No matter what their decision is they will be consequences, and because of that there is little to no morality in war. Which the lack of morality helps show the fear of shame because if they show shame in their movements or have shame in their minds they are weak, no one wants to be weak or show weakness in war. So this motivates them to not have shame which inhibits the lack of morality.
MORALITYOver the course of the story, morality functions to show how valuable life can be through the eyes of the soldiers. In war, the idea of ones own death is a constant fear as each of the soldiers watch their brothers slowly parish in combat. while following the soldiers journey throughout the novel the soldiers not only die physical but mentally as well. The soldiers more afraid to show their fear of death rather than death itself. By numbing their feelings and hiding their fears, they learned to cope with morality as a common state of war.
Morality functions just like the structure. its chaotic and unpredictable, reflecting with the general idea of war. Morality play as a constant struggle with the soldier as they try to justify between right in wrong. For example, is it right to kill another man in order to save ones own life to survive? O'brian seeks the find the answer to wither morality in theses circumstance abides by society's norm.
"the survival of the fittest" mind set frees the speaker of his sins and morality's in war.
MORTALITYIn The Things They Carried, O'Brian brings forth the motif of mortality by illustrating certain events and stories that affected his personal outtake on life and his character. In the beginning of the novel, he talks about how life was not valued, but rather burdened, considering the deaths happened so quickly. The beautiful and natural things of life such as "absolute silence, then the wind, then sunlight, then voices...[were] the burdens of being alive" (25). The theme alters when O'Brian describes the man that he killed. Whether it was an accidental instinct or not, his guilt of this death overwhelmed him. He describes the mans appearance after this tragedy occurs and each detail that he describes about the man he accompanies with something living. From this point on, life is valued, and although some of the stories told may be sugar-coated, the fragility of life shows through each death. The story of Kiowa and Norman Bowker play one of the most influential roles in the novel. Bowker showed O'Brian the reality of the events in which O'Brian experienced. For example, O'Brian speaks of his honors of bravery (which he doubtfully claims to be brave at all), but revisits the time in the lake explosion with Kiowa when he was not so brave. He let his friend sink and die in the waste to save his own life. As he tells the story of his lost foe, he corrects some of the sugar-coated parts with the reality of this situation, which is encouraged by his other friend, Norman Bowker. Norman then goes on to kill himself because he did not value his life anymore and felt there was no longer a meaning for him to exist. This takes the theme of mortality to a whole new level. It now is not just about the physical deaths, but the death of mentality, character, and moral.
The significance of O'Brian utilizing this theme in the novel is to depict the theme of life's beauty and fragility and to not take that for granted. He shows that destructive things or ideas (war for example) can not only destroy man physically, but also internally. He uses the idea of mortality to show that every beautiful aspect of life inevitably terminates and to not take the time one has for granted: cliché but valid. O'Brian illuminates the idea of mortality through each death described, epitomizing the ultimate pertinence, value, and appreciation of life.
Narrative StructureThroughout the novel, The Things They Carried, O’Brien uses a very distorted structure style of writing. He tells his stories of war all with specific purposes that lead to his final point. He compiles all of these together at random times in the novel to have a scattered effect. His structures functions in this distorted way to try and give the reader a glimpse of what war is like. He wants his novel to function in ways that is similar to that of someone in battle. He does this by telling it in a hectic way so the reader can somewhat feel how he felt when he was serving at this point in time. He also builds the story up, making the stories get more real and serious to his personal feelings as the story progresses. He does this wishing to build a personal relationship with the reader. O’Brien hopes that his novel might affect even just one person and make someone find something out about themselves on a deeper level.
O’Brien’s structure is what what defines the purpose of this novel as a whole. A hectic, scattered, and meaningful piece of writing that is meant to have a distinct difference between a normal war story. Most war stories focus on the physical aspects of war and how the character must overcome these physical obstacles. O’Brien however, focuses more on the emotional and spiritual side and how has a much greater impact on the person than something physical can. He portrays this by showing the way that physical objects can have such an emotional effect on someone.
Zack ClonceFinal Blog
1.) O'Brien struggled with the truth of what he has gone through in war. He is hesitant to comunnicate about the truth of his experiences. In multiple chapters he claims to be a coward or fear the truth. At one point his daughter even asks if he had killed anyone and he did not know how to respond. He then speaks to the reader and admits that he hides within his stories, and that he can not tell anyone let alone his own daughter about the truth of his experiences. So he admits that some day he will mature and not be scared or ashamed of his past and be able to chare it with his daughter. But at this point he feels like a different person "it's almost like I got killed over in Nam"(150). War brings these men into situations that they do not have a clear solution to, "turned mean inside. Even alittle cruel at times"(187) so this breaks them down mentally to the point that they become different inside which will help them in war because they gain more courage.
2.) At the beggining of the novel he is fearful and does not believe in the reason for this war but by the end he is all in for the war. His perception changes because it has to while he is in the mix of the war. This is simular to Remeber the Titans when Coach Boone and Coach Yoast were put in a complicated position, in which Boone was put in the head coach position over Yoast. Nevertheless they have to learn to work together for the team to blend together. Also the two best players on the team have to work together even though they hate eachother in the begining. Towards the end they become best friends. In comparison to O'Briens stories they all have to learn to work together and for a greater good or else they would fail.
3.) Could not find artifact
1.) This is significant because it is showing the lack or ambiguousity of morality. In war there will always be choices that have to be made that will have repercussions. No matter the choice that is made there will be something bad from the outcome. The fact that they made thoughs choices shows that they are changing and adapting to there situation. They learn to block out feelings "Nobody said much. the whole platoon stood there watching, feeling all kinds of things, but there wasn't a great deal of pity for the watter buffalo"(75). Even though they know what just happened they have learned to block out pity.2.) At this point he sees it as being a coward because he did not follow threw with his original decision. He gave in to what others around him wanted and thought that he should do. Even though outwardly it is seen as an act of bravery, to him on the inside it seems as a cowardly act. He looks back at all of his decisions and thinks that he made them out of cowardly behavior. He says "I survived, but it's not a happy ending"(58) he is showing how he is not happy with his actions.
3.) Yes I believe that all of his war stories are true, because the reason that he continually goes back and forth from the truth is because he is hiding behind his stories. It is necessary for him personally to go back and forth with the truth because he does not feel completely conforable with the true brutallity of all of his war stories.
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Zack C. - November 21
Fallon - December 2
Taylor - December 9