SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

If you loved November's group book An Unkindness of Ghosts (or if you didn't, but the concept of this book is too incredible to pass up), please join us for another book by Rivers Solomon: The Deep.

This book was inspired by a song of the same name by the rap group clipping., who were in turn inspired by the work of the musical group Drexciya. Here's a couple intros to Drexciya's music (here and here), as well as their spotify page.

Please use spoiler tags and indicate the chapter/percent.

Ch 1: Wow, there are already so many interesting things going on. (view spoiler)[I love the way Solomon describes all of the different sensations of the ocean, and how communication would function through the vibrations of the water. And the concept of the historian is sounding really fascinating. (hide spoiler)]

I'll be joining in, though I need to finish some other reading first.

I read Unkindness of Ghosts and found it fascinating and powerful.

Yay! The official BR isn't until the 12th of November, but I started early because I won an ARC and just couldn't wait any longer.

My copy has been shipped, but I probably won't start until after the 1st.

Still waiting for my copy, but I'll be reading it as soon as it comes in.

Do all of you have ARCs? I just checked and saw that it isn't released yet.

I preordered it (physical copy) and got an email it was shipped on Wednesday. Usually preorders ship on release day, but I’m not complaining. :)

Meredith wrote: "I preordered it (physical copy) and got an email it was shipped on Wednesday. Usually preorders ship on release day, but I’m not complaining. :)"

Oh ... :( I just checked the kindle version and this is apparently not available here until Dec 5th ... not fair!

What’s ARC?

I’m waiting for the audio which should be out on November 5.

Dawn wrote: "What’s ARC?...."

Advanced Reader/Review Copy.

Loved the book! I can't wait to chat about it with y'all.

In the meantime, here's some additional musical background, per the book's afterward. The idea for the people depicted in the book actually comes from stories and mythos created by a musical group called Drexciya. One of the members has died, but here a couple intros to the group's music (here and here), as well as their wiki page and spotify page. It sounds like there will also at some point be a graphic novel based on their work, although so far the only direct source of information about it appears to be an indigogo page (the campaign is now closed).

ETA: ooh! Here's a post about the graphic novel with several pages posted: https://www.roots-routes.org/a-brilli...

Saga Press finally approved my ARC request on NetGalley- but they also said they are archiving it in a few days and I’ll lose access to it then.

Sooo... I’m going to try and speed read through it this weekend. Prepare for posting. I’ll also continue to discuss with the group when everyone can join.

25%

(view spoiler)[Agreeing with Kaa, the descriptions are lovely and setting a great tone, fitting with the title of the book.

I’m interested to see what happens to Yetu’s people now that they will have to live with the memories, and what will happen to Yetu now that she is free of them. (hide spoiler)]

Sarah wrote: "Saga Press finally approved my ARC request on NetGalley- but they also said they are archiving it in a few days and I’ll lose access to it then.

Sooo... I’m going to try and speed read through it ..."

Once you've downloaded it, you won't lose access to it. It will remain on your device and you can take your time reading it. You can also post feedback on Net Galley after it's been archived. I do it all the time.

I was also recently approved by Net Galley and have just started the book. I intend to participate in this BR.

Thanks for the tip! I actually have heard you can lose access to Kindle books whether from NetGalley or Edelweiss, so I didn’t want to risk it. If you read the beginning it says: “This title will no longer be accessible upon publication of this book.”

That being said- I have finished.

(view spoiler)[I’m not sure how I feel about it to be honest. I enjoyed it- thought it was well written, enjoyed the quick pace and stream of consciousness style, but I wasn’t moved like I wanted to be. I’m wondering if it’s because It might have felt a little too short? (hide spoiler)]

Sarah wrote: "Thanks for the tip! I actually have heard you can lose access to Kindle books whether from NetGalley or Edelweiss, so I didn’t want to risk it. If you read the beginning it says: “This title will n..."

Once it's on your device, you don't lose access. I've read Net Galley and Edelweiss books a year or more after I downloaded them. What they mean by saying that you can lose access, is that you need to download them right away. You won't be able to download them once they're archived.

The kindle edition still has a December date, but the audible is a available now. So I will join as soon as I finished my current audiobook.

I'm roughly 12% in (2 chapters, if the audio has the same counting as the book). (view spoiler)[ Just before the remembering ceremony. I'm eager to read on and see what happens. The idea with one historian to carry the burden of remembrance is fascinating. (hide spoiler)]

Glad you were able to get a copy of the audiobook, Gabi! That chapter count sounds about right to me.

Also, clipping. released another song that goes with the book yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBWBa...

Read through 3 chapters (24%)
(view spoiler)[ fascinating world and I'm liking how the details of the origins of the wajinru is being given little by little. I like Yetu's voice and personality. The writing is presenting both beautiful and harsh images and doing it very well. (hide spoiler)]

Through chapter 5, 55%
(view spoiler)[ I thought the conversation between Yetu and Oori about avoiding pain together with your culture versus accepting it if it's the only way to have your culture was touching and thought-provoking. In some ways Yetu is being selfish, but it's also hard to blame her for her action. (hide spoiler)]

I read this on a plane today, then happily came here to open all the spoiler tags. :-)

Sorry, I meant to post yesterday for the official start of the BR!

I'm seeing some patterns in the comments about the early parts of the book, but what did you think when you finished? It's a very short book - did that work for you?

My thoughts on the whole book: (view spoiler)[I was amazed by how much Solomon fit into this story. Both of the main moral threads - how much sacrifice we owe other people and how can generational trauma be remembered without crushing us - were very compelling to me. The first thread reminds me of other stories like "Those Who Walk Away From Omelas", and some of the struggles I have in general with the idea of altruism and selfishness. For me, I'm not sure Yetu's selfishness is a bad thing - sometimes, we do have to put our own lives first.

Honestly, I'm still thinking about this book - I put a hold on the audiobook at the library, and I'm excited to re-read it that way. (hide spoiler)]

Kaa wrote: "My thoughts on the whole book: (view spoiler) ..."

Yes, my first thoughts were (view spoiler)[ also towards Omelas. Altruism is always a thought provoking concept. I think in the end this is a question that can only be answered individually and in each context new.
I'm at such a point in my life at the moment (the reason why I stay away from most discussions), and I can't find the answer for myself.
So the novel did speak to me.
I guess I would have somehow wished for a not so happy ending -but that is certainly due to my mood at the moment. Yetu did deserve it. (hide spoiler)]

Kaa wrote: "Sorry, I meant to post yesterday for the official start of the BR!

I'm seeing some patterns in the comments about the early parts of the book, but what did you think when you finished? It's a ver..."

I finished the other day and I liked how it resolved. (view spoiler)[Even though the story was short, I was impressed by how much Solomon included. I enjoyed the threads of Yetu's story with older parts of the history of the community. I thought the resolution was a good compromise between the two alternatives that Yetu felt faced her. Sharing the pain allowed the community to find ways to deal with it better. It was a 'happy' ending which at the same time didn't deny or fix the past trauma that was experienced. I felt strong empathy for Yetu as I have had to learn to protect myself from negative actions of other people and sometimes feel I am being selfish (though without wanting to change either). (hide spoiler)]

@Gabi & Meredith: (view spoiler)[I appreciated that there was a positive outcome for Yetu and her people, although in some ways it felt a little too neat.

I definitely felt that I appreciated the book more because the struggle about how much of yourself to give for other people - and the feeling of selfishness if you aren't willing to give as much as others seem to need/think you should - is one that I have experienced personally and that still challenges me. (hide spoiler)]

I'm starting reading today. The song and premise of the book are very intriguing.

I'm late for the party, just finished the book. I agree with previous comments that one cannot jump immediately with a review on such a novella, it needs some digesting. I liked it much more than An Unkindness of Ghosts, maybe because it hasn't tried to be a SF (as I see it).

The underwater society/race/group is very well sculpted, esp. bearing in mind the size of the work. delegating history/memories, so that a society can live is a very strong concept. The communications and connections between Yetu and Amaba, Yetu and "two-legged" are well-written.

At the same time I have to admit it is not exactly the type of prose I enjoy, even if its objective properties are praiseworthy

I've finished the book a couple of weeks ago. I don't think I have anything new to add to the discussion. The ending seemed a little forced but I agree that Yetu deserved this happy ending. For me, it was a deeply moving story for personal reasons.

All ready for a new batch of buddy readers! :)

Through Chapter 2, 15%.
What an amazing premise.
(view spoiler)[
1. These themes could have a lot of impact. Collective memory, generational history, what their people have gained and lost as a new species, individual/community.

2.

“I’d hoped to be stronger by this point,” she said. She wanted there to be more of her, to be steady on her feet, or else the Remembrance would steal what remained of her.

Is "steady on her feet"
-literal, do the wajinru still have feet as well as fins?
-idiomatic, only Yetu would use this because she holds memories of when their ancestors walked on the land?
-mistake on the author's part, or at least a questionable choice of wording?
-other?

3. I hope Yetu goes to the council of women or whoever the leaders are, about this historian problem. Cool system, but currently does not seem sustainable and she would best seek help before becoming so depressed she loses herself and so many memories.
(hide spoiler)]

Bonnie wrote: "Through Chapter 2, 15%.
What an amazing premise.

[Spoiler removed]

Ch. 2 (view spoiler)[1. I agree that these concept promise a fascinating read. Though I also agree with your third point that having only one historian doès not seem sustainable. Not only is there a lot of ableism baked into this arrangement, it also seems counterintuitive to have only one person carry all this knowledgecand trauma. Not only are the ioher wajinru more or less constantlythreatened with losing themselves, they're also basically re-traumatized in a regular basis when the historian shared the remembrances. Wouldn't it make more sense to habe more people carry this knowledge and keep it alive through sustained talk about it? (hide spoiler)]

Ch. 3 (view spoiler)[It's going to be really interesting to see what repercussions Yetu's leaving will have. I can't say I blame her. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 3:
(view spoiler)[I find myself wishing the writing was even more poetic and lyrical, so that I could feel I was in the ocean, moving around through the water.

Yetu is definitely not mentally well: PTSD resulting from conflict with her mother and her own existential depression, both on top of the burden of being the historian and holding the community's memories. It's too much, and how could she have known that at age 14? Basha shouldn't have chosen her, but even thinking that presses her down more, "...brave Basha. So much braver than Yetu, he had suffered more in his lifetime than she ever would. He had never let the rememberings steal so much of his power and strength."

"The ancestors pulled her deeper and deeper into the abyss of the past with each passing year." In this memory womb, do the ancestors almost become a consciousness? Can she appeal to them for help?
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 4
(view spoiler)[Origin story. This may be a memory being shared in the remembering womb, or it could be the book giving the readers this information. Another name, the Zoti Aleyu; first I thought these were infant wajinru, but later I think, an early link in the new species.

"We followed ships where none went overboard, but this brought its own grief, for we knew the lives of those on the ship would not be good ones." That's for sure.
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 5
(view spoiler)[I like the imagery of Yetu healing in the tidepool and scarfing down piles of fish with her sharp teeth.

I imagined the wajinru to be in the Atlantic Ocean, because of the slave trade, but to me Suka and Ooni seem like Pacific Islanders, I thought of Maori with Ooni’s markings and tattoos.

Language: Yetu previously used “moons” for months and now “years” for years… I would like if there was a comparable term like “sun-turns” or “winters” or something.
Also, I don’t see how she would know about DNA so that should have been edited out if you ask me. She used 'feet' in an idiom; the wajinru might remember feet from when they were human, but they wouldn’t have known about DNA. “She recognized the same gesture as one her amaba did sometimes. Was such a thing passed down in DNA? Was it part of the History she’d never noticed before?” It also seems pretty scientific thinking, not something a creature of the sea would spend time on.

Not sure why she fell for Oori so quickly. Even before she met Oori, Yetu seemed fascinated with her just from hearing Suka talk about her. The contrast between them is interesting. For all their similarities, Oori stresses the importance of history and spirits, and Yetu wants to talk about psychology and electricity. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 6-7
(view spoiler)[
Is there a larger meaning to the memory of Yetu not only killing, but exsanguinating, the shark for the gathering? She tried to appeal to the ancestors, make a blood sacrifice to them and beg them to take away the burden of the memories. Disturbing images.

One facet of the book that disturbs me personally is all the conflict with Yetu’s amaba. She’s not an adolescent anymore, she is thirty-something, but still the pressure and fights and misunderstandings continue. It really gets me.

I wish Yetu had gone on the journey with Oori, just because I'm curious to see what would have happened between them! (hide spoiler)]

I feel like I've been a terrible buddy reader... I have put this book off until the very last possible moment, and now I feel rushed. Dumb me. (Also, this is the story of my life!)

Anyway, I am about 60% in, just starting chapter 7, and really enjoying this. I don't have time to outline all of my thoughts at this point, but I felt remiss in my buddying so needed to post something. I should definitely finish tonight and then I will post my thoughts! :)

I’m worse than you! I didn’t check to see if I could get it before signing on. I’m waiting for it to come in on a hold from the library, but I don’t have much hope it’ll be anytime soon.

DivaDiane wrote: "I’m worse than you! I didn’t check to see if I could get it before signing on. I’m waiting for it to come in on a hold from the library, but I don’t have much hope it’ll be anytime soon."

Oh no! That stinks. :( Well, I will stick around and chat if & when you get it!

I finally wrote my review last night. After over a week of sitting on my thoughts with this book, I still felt weirdly unclear about how I felt about it. On the one hand, I really loved it, but it was not at all what I was expecting (except it was? Just not HOW I expected it?) and I didn't exactly love the confusion between memory and present (except that was fitting to the story as well?)...

LOL Basically, I think that this story was incredible, but the style and all-overness was hard for me to track, even though it worked and was surely intentional.

End comments, not plot spoilery but hidden just in case: (view spoiler)[I loved the way that memory was portrayed and integral to the story. I can't imagine having a history of such horrific origins, that is so key to who you are now, but also so traumatic and awful that remembering it can be an act of cruelty in itself. But it's also power and knowledge and identity.

I also really loved the symbolism of swimming/rising up at the end against oppressive people who would destroy their people AGAIN.

I liked Oori, and felt so sad for all of her losses, and how that left her closed off and aloof, and how she gradually opened up to Yetu. I loved her version of remembrance, her rituals for caring for the home she loved, and how it was so unthinkable for her to not remember them this way that she nearly lost everything again. I was happy that she made the choice she did at the end. (hide spoiler)]

Lori, about your end of book spoiler - 100%! I agree with every word of that. Perfectly said. :D

Bonnie, about your Amaba comment in your Chapter 7 spoiler: (view spoiler)[ I think the conflict only remained because Yetu was the memory keeper, and likely increased because she was overdue for the sharing ritual. I can't imagine having to entrust someone with your entire history and story, and then having them also be a flighty, reckless, abstract person who constantly disregarded her own safety... meaning that your entire people's history could be lost unless a stroke of luck managed to have another memorykeeper find her body soon enough.

That's got to be completely nerve-wracking. These people were feeling completely unmoored from who they are, and needed the remembrance ceremony urgently, so it's no wonder that Yetu's Amaba would micromanage/helicopter mother her like that. (hide spoiler)]

My hold finally came in. And I’m in the middle of another book! I might try to do double duty and read them both at the same time.

DivaDiane wrote: "My hold finally came in. And I’m in the middle of another book! I might try to do double duty and read them both at the same time."

This is the story of my life!

Actually, both the ebook and the audio book came in from different libraries at the same time! I’ve started the audio book, because my current audio book is easier to interrupt for a few days. I like it so far! I love Rivers’ prose.

Nice! It's funny how that happens sometimes. I hope you enjoy the audio. I really liked Daveed Diggs' reading of this.

I just finished listening and reading all of the spoilers in the thread. Now I need to digest! I did love it. I will post more soon, but in the meantime here’s my immediate review:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

I really appreciated Solomon’s depiction of Yetu, being a young person and unable to say no to becoming the historian, finding herself harmed by the work, first running away to the incomprehension of her Amaba and her people and then ultimately finding a solution that helps her and helps her people grow.

Becky wrote: "Nice! It's funny how that happens sometimes. I hope you enjoy the audio. I really liked Daveed Diggs' reading of this."

Daveed Diggs? He would be excellent.

I, however, read the hardcover back in February 2020. I loved the worldbuilding in this book. It was my first book by Rivers Solomon and I loved it. It flowed so well. I got to wishing it was a full size novel instead of just a novella. Anyone else feel like that?