The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion

Again the polled members voted equally for two books. Read either or both, in either order, and discuss with us this December. Alas, Babylon by Pat Frank is the one I'm most looking forward to.

I've read this a couple of times as a paperback, so I decided to get it in audio. None of my libraries had it, unfortunately.

This book came out the year I was born, when the Cold War was going strong. The Interstates were being built & the overpasses had Civil Defense rooms built in to them. I've been in some of those old rooms & the amount of money each must have cost in equipping them was staggering. First aid, Geiger counters, gamma ray detectors, food, & all sorts of things were stocked in each one.

Frank provides a very short introduction in my PB version that is interesting. He was a journalist & had more than a passing knowledge of our strategic thinking of the time. His Wikipedia entry is quite brief.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Frank

I have read three chapters so far and I am getting a sense of what is to come. I like the way he is setting the stage, giving us lots of info about the characters and the town.

I've read it a few years ago. From what I recall from author's foreword I guess, the book attempted to show how a nuclear war can affect population. This is why we have a point about diabetics but there is no multi-generation saga, which were already present in post-apoc SF (ofc, post-apoc was rather small sub-genre then)

Oleksandr wrote: "... but there is no multi-generation saga, which were already present in post-apoc SF ..."

I don't see that as a bad thing. It's a short book & makes the point of the horrors of a nuclear war. It's not nearly as grim as On the Beach, though. A very limited nuclear exchange.

Jim wrote: "I don't see that as a bad thing. "

I don't think it is bad (see my rating), only that quite often authors set background to fit the story and aren't limited by reality of the background. Like all the FTL travel in SF

I just finished the book and found to be very realistic as to what could occur in such a situation. I was impressed by the book as a whole.

I agree, so far (20% in) he has a very pleasant, calm way of writing.

I'll be rereading this as soon as the book gets here. I ordered it from Blackstone Media as an audio CD. I don't know why they haven't ripped it to a downloadable file, but I will when I get it. It's coming via media mail, so there's no way to tell when it will get here. That's a cheap way to send books & such in the US. It can take up to 30 days, but usually doesn't.

I am IN and cannot wait to (finally) read this book. --Jen from Quebec :0)

I'm done. Usually I like subtle, quiet books and I prefer less action and more world-building. But. For the first 100 pp, this drags. And the rest just isn't all that much more than an instruction manual in off-the-grid survival skills, tbh. I can see the point of getting to know all the characters so very well before the big event, so we can fully understand why they reacted the way they did afterward. I just wish he had done so more concisely and/or interestingly.

I found more interesting how the author reacted to the racism and sexism of his time with what he surely considered an enlightened perspective. The black people are clearly not quite equal, despite the fact that they're the ones most prepared to work hard in this new world. And the girls, while competent in their roles, are never allowed to step beyond them (and are still called girls until some undefined time when they become less sexually attractive or something).

Evidence: (view spoiler)[It took the youngest girl, a preteen, to think to ask the old black man if he knew why the fish weren't biting. Of course he did. Another time our hero hesitated before inviting the black family to a sort of 'block party.' And even this smart young girl has to earn her keep by staying in the house, and our hero's love interest has to shut up when the men are speaking. (hide spoiler)]

Cheryl wrote: "I found more interesting how the author reacted to the racism and sexism of his time with what he surely considered an enlightened perspective."

There is a paradox that SF that is assumed to be about a future is more often than not about the present (the time of writing), either explicitly or implicitly.

Indeed. Though not esp. applicable here, as this was written about the then-current state of the world, for the author's contemporaries. He also wrote survival guides... apparently turning his hand to fiction in an attempt to reach a larger audience.

This doesn't really read like SF, either. And barely like fiction, imo. It attempts to be more literary, or at least not something solely for SF readers, like the wonderful On the Beach. But I believe that it doesn't quite succeed.

I took the survival manual part as a nice way of showing how much I take for granted. The clean, running water, readily available salt, & other things that I don't think about too often. Medicines, imported foods, & such are pretty obvious, but this pointed out much that isn't. The bit about the jewelry isn't something I've read in another book. I'm not sure if it is true. Anyone know? He also didn't devolve into a lot of gore & violence as so many of this sort of novel do.

Cheryl wrote: "I found more interesting how the author reacted to the racism and sexism of his time with what he surely considered an enlightened perspective...."

4 years after this was written, there's a picture of John Wayne spanking Maureen O'Hara on the movie cover of McLintock. As you pointed out, he was progressive for his time. This is one of the harbingers of changes that were coming to our society & he made a good case for doing so.

Jim wrote: "He also didn't devolve into a lot of gore & violence as so many of this sort of novel do..."

I think it is a great plus for such a story!

I finished this and really enjoyed it. As for the roles for women and people of color, I thought this was fairly progressive for a book published in 1959, about 60 years ago.

In the world of 1959, the Russians had launched Sputnik and many Americans feared that the US was losing the Cold War arms race. It would still be another three years until Kennedy stared down the Russians in the Cuban Missile Crisis and ten years until we would land on the moon, a significant achievement because it was the first time we had beaten the Russians in any step of the space race.

MLK wouldn't deliver his "I Have a Dream" speech for another four years after this book was published, which was also the year George Wallace stood in the schoolhouse door as Alabama schools were desegregated. Malcolm X had only barely entered the public awareness. Brown v Board of Education and Rosa Parks had raised the level of consciousness of the American people to racial inequality but American was a long way from change. Frank seems to be making the point that in a post-apocalyptic world, racism and sexism were going to be left behind as a matter of survival if for no other reason.

And Jim I agree with you that Frank seemed to want to show how unprepared most people and even the government were with regards to what necessities would become unavailable in a nuclear holocaust, even by those who were not directly affected by the initial blasts. Even a group like Randy's who had water and even a source of fresh food would find themselves scrounging for many unexpected needs like salt and artificial light sources.

I found this thread very, very interesting. Being from West Virginia we quite frankly don't find any of these things a given.

Those of us in the country have wells, septic tanks, back-up heating systems, generators, gardens, hunting rifles, and four-wheel drives - not SUVs. I live in a town with a good water supply not on an environmental threatened river and sewer disposal. However, I maintain a back-up, non-electrically dependent heating system. Just a few years back 300,000 West Virginians in the Kanawha Valley (including the state capital) water system lost safe drinking water for a solid week. The water was so contaminated by coal chemicals that it was unusable for washing and cooking and cleaning in due to chemical burning. Public water warnings and shutdowns are now common throughout the state in the mining and fracking zones.

West Virginians have the highest cancer rates in the nation. The largest female dominated industry in the state (teaching) is under assault by the government and they have been forced to twice strike to curb the attacks on our public education system.

We have a seated delegate in the State House who was blinded in a bar at a strip club and then found Jesus. He says if his children were Gay that "drowning them would be a good idea".

This week the state correctional officer training program made the NYT with a picture of the graduating class giving the NAZI salute while the lone African American in the picture gave the Black Power fist (just imagine how he felt). Three employees have been terminated and the rest of the group is suspended without pay...for now.

Over a third of the state's population is dependent on food stamps and Medicaid for their basic food and medical needs.

Unlike much of America we are still living in the future pass of the book. Survivalists love the state so much that Dr. William Pierce founded his White Supremacist compound just north of my hometown. The doctor is the author of a remarkable piece of SF, "The Turner Diaries", which was the inspiration for the Oklahoma City Bombings....

You can find that book at many public libraries so you don't have to contribute to the coffers of those crazies. Pierce was a brilliant and sick man and his book lives up to that reputation.

On the bright side, we are damn proud of inspiring JFK to go full out on the space program and we might just one day become Moon miners as envisioned by that president.

We all remember that the Right Stuff was personified in our native son and the first man to go fast than the speed of sound, Chuck Yeager. And I am damn proud to be able to say that my uncle and a steel rigger, Pete Hudson, built the Gemini and Mercury launch platforms at Cape Canaveral.

Having contributed more veterans per capita than any other state in the union, quite frankly, most of us are awaiting another call to service from our government. I often reflect on how inspiring life was in my childhood versus my middle ones. I would think many of us older SF readers share such thoughts...

There are a lot of rural areas that are overlooked by modern city-folk. Lots of places in central Missouri don't even have internet but it does have hunting seasons for all sorts of critters. Most of Nevada is only now getting internet, used to be dependent on satellite. Southern Idaho is another place the 'crazies' like to gather. Etc. But yeah, WV does have a special reputation, apparently deserved.

That's why I was so disgusted by Randy at the beginning of this book, not having a clue about how to prepare. Damn, he wasn't even prepared for an ordinary two-day power outage. That steak dinner was a hoot.

Cheryl wrote: "That's why I was so disgusted by Randy at the beginning of this book, not having a clue about how to prepare. Damn, he wasn't even prepared for an ordinary two-day power outage. That steak dinner w..."

Our farm was 35 miles from Baltimore, so not completely in the sticks, but utility services always went out during storms. Back in the mid 70s, they put up half a dozen homes in a new development next to our farm & we shared part of the lane. I was amazed at how clueless these people were. They moved next to a dairy farm & complained about the smell or the noise of equipment 'early' (before 9am) in the morning, yet thought nothing of loud parties after dark.

During a bad snow storm, one of the new neighbors came running out while we were plowing their road in pumps. She & her kids spent a couple of nights with us since they had an all electric house & the power was out. She said they had a couple of hot dogs, but no other food or water (The well pump ran on electric.) nor did the lady have proper boots. The husband decided to stay in town because work was important. More important than making sure his wife & kids were OK, apparently.

Gregg wrote: "I found this thread very, very interesting. Being from West Virginia we quite frankly don't find any of these things a given.

Those of us in the country have wells, septic tanks, back-up heating s..."

wow-- Thanks for sharing all of this info on WVirginia- some of that I know about but not all + it made for sobering reading. I'm from Canada so the 'individuality' (for lack of a better word) of allll the many states in America are not really clear to me/us/Canadians, so I appreciated learning about your state. Is this the 1st time you've read Pat Frank's book? It will be my 1st time, and I think I will do the audio version while following along with the Kindle version. I'll have more to say about things in a few days, I imagine! ---Jen from Quebec :0)

Cheryl wrote: "That's why I was so disgusted by Randy at the beginning of this book, not having a clue about how to prepare. Damn, he wasn't even prepared for an ordinary two-day power outage. That steak dinner w..."

And yet he was more prepared than most people in the community. Frank also wrote a non-fiction book How to Survive the H-Bomb...and Why so it seems like this was a topic to which he had given quite a bit of thought.

True. I also looked up his other titles and was struck by that one. Apparently the 'why' refers to 'why learn these survival skills' but grammatically (and more interestingly) it reads existentially as "Why bother trying to survive a cataclysmic event...."

There is a reason "The Hunger Games" starts in a West Virginia-esque setting....

I used to have a friend who loved to mock the civil defense warning to hide under your school-desk in case of a nuclear bomb.

Cheryl wrote: "I used to have a friend who loved to mock the civil defense warning to hide under your school-desk in case of a nuclear bomb."

It should have been mocked a lot more & sooner. As little kids, it was frightening at times, laughable at others. At one point, they changed to having us go into the hallways & once into the basement. That was a mess. Looking back on it, it seems like a rather sadistic practice. Even then I knew it wouldn't help in a real attack, but it was frightening to contemplate. Made the whole idea a lot more real than the occasional TV & radio tests.

My audiobook has arrived. I'll be starting this later today or tomorrow.

I got through the first couple of chapters so far & I'm enjoying it immensely. Frank really sets the scene well. Fort Repose reminds me a lot of the small town where I lived on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. It's very southern & I lived there in the mid 60s, so not long after this book was published. Florence was a hoot & a great hook to explain so much of the everyday life.

The racial issues were about the same, almost a complete separation between races, although the public school was desegregated when I went there. Not everyone was happy about that on either side.

I really liked the way Mark explains the situation to Randy. Not only does it fill me in on the state of the world, but it does so in a logical way that eases the data dump. The seeds of MAD are clearly shown as are the reasons behind JFK's space race.

I should read this novel during the week of Thanksgiving since it shows just how much I take for granted: clean water, heat, electric, easy transportation, medicine/medical care, & so much more. It also shows something of the complexity & continuity of conditions required to make it so. There is a lot less in 1959 than there is today, of course. One Second After does a good job describing this for today.

I hadn't realized that Frank wrote this at the height of the bomb shelter craze. I thought he preceded it, but not according to this article:
https://www.rivertowns.net/news/97164...
It's interesting reading something about the shelters. Sand floors?

The serious side of the novel's beginning is wonderfully broken up by Randy's hunt for the elusive Carolina parakeet. The misunderstanding by Florence is hilarious, sad, & understandable. How the war started was also understandable, if a bit overdone. In tense situations like that, any sort of mistake is just too easy.

I really liked the way the various characters were shown reacting to the war. I found the banker very believable as well as the snow birds at the hotel. It was just too much of a change for them to believe.

That is what impressed me about the book- the characters reacted like ordinary people in an extraordinary situation.

Gregg wrote: "... Being from West Virginia we quite frankly don't find any of these things a given.

Those of us in the country have wells, septic tanks, back-up heating ..."

Yeah, different areas would be differently-prepared for life after a civilizational collapse. Country folk often know a little bit about repairing and maintaining all sorts of things. City folk are more likely to specialize. I'll stick to the city!

On the other hand, according to the New Yorker this month: "Subscribers to Peoples Rural Telephone Cooperative (P.R.T.C.), which covers all of Jackson County and the adjacent Owsley County" in Kentucky has some of the fastest fiber-optic internet in the country, despite being one of the poorest areas of the country. Mules were used to help install it.

(As far as I understand, this is completely unrelated to the KentuckyWired project which is supposed to wire-up the whole state, but is way behind schedule.)

Kentucky Wired is a hoax, IMO. I live 20 minutes from the capital of KY, Frankfort, & the best I could get was 512Kb service until a month ago. Now I have a 6mb wireless service. There's a huge strip from about my house west-northwest that runs to the Ohio river that is without high speed Internet. All of it an easy commute to Louisville, the biggest city in the state. It's ridiculous & killing housing prices. My PVA went down $10K last year because of it.

You're right about repair & maintenance out in the country. We figure a trip to the nearest hardware store takes at least an hour round trip & getting someone out to do repairs properly is expensive, so most of us do it ourselves. I do most of my own fixing of everything, but I was a remodeler & grew up on a farm. I have most tools for every sort of home repair & mechanic work including an arc welder, an oxy-propane torch, & a coal-fired forge. I'm not great at the metal work, but I can do farm repairs.

Unfortunately, I seem to have a brown thumb when it comes to the vegetable garden. I didn't manage to raise an edible tomato this year. Sigh. It really makes me appreciate all my neighbors who raise way too much. There are several places on the way home where I can stop & get veges in season. They're usually just an unmanned stand where I pay what I want on the honor system.

Jim wrote: "Kentucky Wired is a hoax, IMO...."

I'm not going into that! Politics!

But P.R.T.C. seems great. They wired every single home and business in two very poor counties with fiber optic with Terabyte connection speeds. And this in places that didn't even have telephone in 1950. It has helped bring internet-related jobs (like call centers and remote teaching) to an area that previously had high unemployment.

I also have a Terabyte fiber connection. The big companies (AT&T and Comcast) fought to try to prevent it, but we got it.

Rosemarie wrote: "That is what impressed me about the book- the characters reacted like ordinary people in an extraordinary situation."

Agreed! I really liked the Banker & Florence threads. He's shown as stiff & unyielding, so The Day shatters him. Florence blooms, though. Other characters did the same, more or less.

I finished the book & gave it another 5 star review here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I've read quite a few post apocalyptic novels over the years. Many are nothing more than action-porn, entertaining, but not not particularly filling. If you like this, I highly recommend One Second After an update of this book & World Made by Hand which shows it doesn't take a cataclysmic event to bring down civilization. On the Beach was written a few year later than Alas, Babylon about a much worse nuclear war. About a decade before, Earth Abides shows a world where almost all the humans die due to a disease, an update of Shelley's The Last Man, & far more readable.

Those might make good group reads, too. I didn't think of On the Beach as being SF, but I suppose it is. It's pretty good, and relatively famous/influential, so I imagine it did contribute to the evolution of sf....

I don't think The Last Man would be a good group read. It's terribly long & boring. We read Earth Abides in this group. Here's the topic:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Another great one to add to this list is I Am Legend.

I've been surprised this year by how much radiation we can stand. Growing up in the 60s, I developed an outsized idea of its deadliness. I recently readZapped: From Infrared to X-rays, the Curious History of Invisible Light where Berman discusses how much radiation exposure people are subjected to & makes comparisons to the Hiroshima & Nagasaki bombs. I haven't watched the mini series "Chernobyl", but have read articles about how the wildlife in the area is doing fine.

Yes, Chernobyl's wildlife is doing fine but you have to remember - there was no nuclear explosion, but a conventional one that throw out fission materials. Therefore in distance like 30 meters you can have a dangerously high radiation and quite normal levels.

True, but I guess that's my point about my ideas of the dangers of radiation. It's not rational, but a belief baked into me early on. I constantly have to check my thinking on the subject because I don't, I just feel. "Radiation! Bad!!!" I've read a little about it & am all for building nuclear plants for electric unlike so I'm not nearly as bad many I know.

Radiation isn't bad but certain types are deadly. If you absorb a radioactive isotope that is an element you need it is deadly whether from a bomb or trash.

Hard radiation is also deadly....just ask the Japanese who didn't die in the explosion - oh wait, we can't.

Our government has been very irresponsible in the wake of Fukuyama and just about every other nuclear disaster except Chernobyl.