Tournament of Books discussion

thread to discuss The Water Dancer by Ta-Nahesi Coates, his debut novel

I listened to this one on audio, which was really good (although I wish it had more singing, which was beautiful). I loved that (view spoiler)[ Harriet Tubman had such a prominent role. (hide spoiler)] And I found the themes of memory's connection to freedom, the symbolism of "conduction," and referring to the "coffin" of the South really powerful. I hope he writes more fiction and I look forward to discussing the depths of this one during the tournament!

I'm going wait for the tournament for indepth comments, but I was struck by the same things as you Lauren, as well as the choice of using the word "Task" and "Tasked Person" instead of Slavery and Slave.

Ditto, Nadine and Lauren.

Oh, dear. I'm going to be the lone dissenting voice here, I fear. The only thing I found original and interesting about it was the use of "task" and "tasking" and "The Tasked" and once I realized it was wholly original, I was ready to really like the book. But everything else seemed hackneyed and ponderous to me, and I couldn't help but constantly think that we already had a -- much better -- book that covered some of the same ground. But I'm going to save most of what I have to say for the Tournament discussion.

Ellen wrote: "Oh, dear. I'm going to be the lone dissenting voice here, I fear. The only thing I found original and interesting about it was the use of "task" and "tasking" and "The Tasked" and once I realized i..."

Ellen, I had problems with it too - I'm saving the big discussion for the ToB and think of this thread as more like a teaser. Here's my review.

I wasn’t as much of a fan as I thought I would be, although I love TNC’s nonfiction. Maybe my reading was skewed by knowing of his comics work, but I kept feeling like I was reading a superhero origin story. The supernatural or magical realism elements weakened the emotional impact for me, and the romance felt perfunctory.

Nadine wrote: "Ellen wrote: "Oh, dear. I'm going to be the lone dissenting voice here, I fear. The only thing I found original and interesting about it was the use of "task" and "tasking" and "The Tasked" and onc..."

I can see what you mean about the slow pacing (which was probably what kept this from being a five-star read for me), even though I still enjoyed it overall.

I think if I'd read this, as opposed to listening to it, I might have reacted more to the pacing. That wasn't as obvious to me as a listen...although I can't guarantee I didn't drift off for a few minutes at times. :-D

I DID listen to it. It wasn't the pacing that troubled me -- it was the (I hate to say it) triteness and the cliches and the, occasionally, and especially in the dialogue, not-very-good writing.

It worked better for me when I realized it was his first novel that he started writing back in 2008-09. It was a superhero origin story and not derivative of Underground Railroad, at least according to interviews I’ve seen with Ta-Nehisi. While it dragged at points, I think most literary fiction does (true confession).

Peebee wrote: "It worked better for me when I realized it was his first novel that he started writing back in 2008-09. It was a superhero origin story and not derivative of Underground Railroad, at least accordin..."

For all my problems with the book, I didn't see it as derivative of Underground Railroad at all, although the relative closeness of their publication dates doesn't work in Coates' favor. Right after finishing Water Dancer I started Mary Toft; or, The Rabbit Queen, and this second historical fiction got the pacing just right - at least for me.

I had already read a few from the Long List (Lost Children Archive, Normal People, The Testaments, Golden State). When the Short List was announced, this was the one whose blurb unfortunately took my interest. Bad choice!

I found it totally "bleh". I thought the plot device was nebulous in more ways than one and just a chance to have "blah blah blah, exposition, blah blah blah". I felt little empathy or connection with the characters and was definitely skimming by the time I had reached the last quarter.

Hopefully onto a better choice!! What to read next??

Julie wrote: "I had already read a few from the Long List (Lost Children Archive, Normal People, The Testaments, Golden State). When the Short List was announced, this was the one whose blurb unfortunately took ..."

I am really loving Girl, Woman, Other and hope to finish it today in time for the zombie vote. It manages to make you care very deeply for each character in just a few pages. Hopefully it works better for you than this one did, if you want to try that next. :)

I have read a lot of Ta-Nehisi Coates' non-fiction writing, and what I really value about it is how he doesn't waste or mince words, he writes directly, unveiling hard truths and not worrying about feelings. Even in the memoir about his childhood, the language is so immediate, the dialogue so realistic, it pulled me in and kept me there.

I'm so happy for the author, that he's a MacArthur genius. I believe in authors having a chance to reach and grow and experiment and I can only think that this novel is the first attempt of fiction writing and a new style. I want to be clear that I'm supportive of the stretching and growing.

But I could not finish this book. I started it three different times, and then stalled around 30% a few times, picking it back up to try to talk myself through before the end of the year. But I find in this case that the language itself is the problem. Instead of clarifying it obscures. I just can't think of another way to say it. And I feel like the magical realism element in the novel further confuses me as a reader, it makes me wonder is any of it true. It feels like a first novelist mistake - assuming the story they came up with isn't enough, throw all this other stuff in there - perhaps it sorts itself out by the end but I had to be honest with myself and permanently set it aside.

Listening to audio. The first part seems a bit stream of consciousness. I hope it gets more linear.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I have read a lot of Ta-Nehisi Coates' non-fiction writing, and what I really value about it is how he doesn't waste or mince words, he writes directly, unveiling hard truths and not worrying about..."

I completely agree with this. 'Between the World and Me' was my second favorite book of the year. But this one took me forever to get through. I wanted less of the magical realism... as it seemed to take forever to get there anyway. It was distracting. It didn't help my ARC copy probably had four obvious typos per page. Very annoying. The publisher knew this would be a big book, they could have cleaned up the ARC.

C wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I completely agree with this. 'Between the World and Me' was my second favorite book of the year. But this one took me forever to get through. I wanted less of the magical realism... as it seemed to take forever to get there anyway. It was distracting. It didn't help my ARC copy probably had four obvious typos per page. Very annoying. The publisher knew this would be a big book, they could have cleaned up the ARC. "
More and more, I'm finding what I would call deliberate letter replacements in ARCs that publishers suspect will be very popular. I refuse to read or review them. Once every instance of two "f"s in a row were omitted, another time it was all the "it"s and once you stop in the middle of a sentence to figure out what the word is supposed to be, I'd be out of the book. Not's saying that's what's happening here.

I should say I'm also reading it in eARC and I wonder how much of that contributed to my overwhelmed/obscured reading experience. In a print book surely there are more breaks and white spaces.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "C wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I completely agree with this. 'Between the World and Me' was my second favorite book of the year. But this one took me forever to get through. I wanted less o..."

I'm curious what you mean by deliberate typos?
Sometimes if an ARC is a mess, I wonder why they even bothered to send it out. Or I wonder if I even actually READ the book with all those typos. Obviously there will also be other changes. I know they are allowed to make changes... but... I remember my favorite bit of The Bone Clocks was removed from the official copy. Then I wonder if other people who read the official copy will even know what the heck I'm talking about if I read an ARC, that things might be so drastically changed in the book. sigh. Book problems.

C wrote: "I'm curious what you mean by deliberate typos? ."

For instance, let's say every time a double S occurred in a word, they just removed both Ss. Grass becomes gra, ass is just a vowel, bless is ble and blessing would be bleing... I've had that kind of problem and just let them know why I would not be reading it, and why. (Usually you can see the pattern of what they're doing though.)

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "C wrote: "I'm curious what you mean by deliberate typos? ."

For instance, let's say every time a double S occurred in a word, they just removed both Ss. Grass becomes gra, ass is just a vowel, ble..."

Ah okay.

Why on earth do they send out ARCs that way??

Carmel wrote: "Why on earth do they send out ARCs that way??"

I'm guessing to stop the resale of ARCs both print and digital, but especially digital. Piracy is doing a number on international ebook sales for publishers and authors. Below is a link to an author who tried to combat the piracy of her books and why she was forced to do this--

https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...

Amanda wrote: "Carmel wrote: "Why on earth do they send out ARCs that way??"

I'm guessing to stop the resale of ARCs both print and digital, but especially digital. Piracy is doing a number on international eboo..."

I do believe this is their intent, but I'd rather just be rejected for the ARC. Or send me the print, whatever.

Is it usually the ARC's that are pirated, though? I thought it was usually the published copy? (For my books, the pirated copies have been the official version. Maybe it's both, though.)

I swear, I'd get rid of e-books if I could, piracy is hurting so many of us. It's downright theft, from authors who already earn next to nothing and depend on sales to continue their careers, but I'm sure readers who'd never think of stealing material goods are stealing from authors without even thinking twice.

Elizabeth wrote: "Is it usually the ARC's that are pirated, though? I thought it was usually the published copy? (For my books, the pirated copies have been the official version. Maybe it's both, though.)

I swear, ..."

I feel we should move this conversation elsewhere, maybe, but I think the publishers' concern about ARCs is that not only will they be pirated but allow people to read the story before it is out, cutting back even more on sales. I once had a "review copy" of a cookbook by a very famous pastry guy in NYC and it had everything except the recipes - I was like yeah, no.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "Is it usually the ARC's that are pirated, though? I thought it was usually the published copy? (For my books, the pirated copies have been the official version. Maybe it's both, t..."

Haha! Well, that's one way of doing it...

I feel like ARC's should be limited to bookstores and major reviewers (although really, I don't even think bookstore owners read most of them.) Netgalley is too often abused.

Elizabeth said "I swear, I'd get rid of e-books if I could, piracy is hurting so many of us."

Over my dead body. I love my Kindle, and I have never illegally downloaded (book, movie, music ... whatever) and I am sure I am not alone.

Julie wrote: "Elizabeth said "I swear, I'd get rid of e-books if I could, piracy is hurting so many of us."

Over my dead body. I love my Kindle, and I have never illegally downloaded (book, movie, music ... wha..."

Oh believe me, I love my Kindle and almost never buy paper books now. But my comment was from frustration, and in the end I really would rather they go away.

Years ago, before piracy was even so prevalent, one of my books was on at least ten different sites for free download, seeded probably hundreds of times. And it’s only gotten worse, so I hope you understand where I’m coming from.

(And I know the majority of readers don’t steal books, especially TOB folks who know the importance of supporting literary novelists. But enough do that it really does hurt authors and reduce their ability to make a living, as well as their chances of getting new books accepted for publication.)

I'm listening to the audiobook and liking everything about it, almost. The mispronunciation of certain words bothers me. Bro-GANS and teleGRAPHy, for example.

I really enjoyed reading these reviews. I felt like basically this book was a lot of different historical accounts of slavery, and he invented characters so they could be mouthpieces for these accounts and threw in some magical realism. I couldn't engage with the characters. There didn't seem to be the characterization, the interiority, the pacing, the conflict, that makes fiction work. I love his nonfiction and was disappointed by this book, to be honest with you! I think he is one of the best nonfiction writers I have ever read.

Cat wrote: "I really enjoyed reading these reviews. I felt like basically this book was a lot of different historical accounts of slavery, and he invented characters so they could be mouthpieces for these acco..."

I did see some character development in the beginning of the novel, but that fell to the wayside as the story progressed. I thought Sophia was going to be an interesting character. We got a revealing conversation about what it means to be a woman and a slave, but that all went away in the third act. Instead she became an trophy for Hiram to win instead of a person in her own right.

Re: ARCs....the problem is not that too many books are given away....it's that too few people read. If I read an ARC and love the story, I'm going to tell everyone I know and buy at least one copy to give as a gift. Most stories die from not being read.

I enjoyed the audio of The Water Dancer....it took me a long time to get through it but I thought it was just me. The singing and the "call and response" enhanced the experience of reading this book. It's hard not to compare this book to The Underground Railroad so I think Coates was courageous to write it this way knowing of the inevitable comparisons. The other highlight for me was the inclusion of Harriet Tubman as a cameo character. I haven't seen the film Harriet yet but supposedly she did have "visions" which helped her guide slaves to safety.

I enjoyed this book more than most people here, but did feel like it started to lose its way a bit in the second half.

I'm about 2/3 done with it, and I can't help but hear more Coates than Hiram. There are some very trenchant observations that sound much more like an educated 21st century MacArthur grant recipient than a lettered escaped slave...

That being said, I do like it more than Underground Railroad, though the more fantastic elements feel really out of place in both.

I loved Whitehead's The Underground Railroad and I thought it was brilliant. That novel's use of the fantastical was optimally implemented for my tastes. The Water Dancer doesn't compare IMO.

I'm downloading the ebook from the library just so I can count how many times Hiram put on his brogans. Not shoes, he never wears shoes...always brogans. This description dropped off when he was in Philadelphia which made me wonder if he went barefoot while there.

I just finished and haven't quite decided what I think yet. The first half captivated me but once it got into "conducting" I started to have mixed feelings. I liked the concept, but just found myself less enthralled by the end. I think I still liked it?

One thing that I'm embarrassed to admit is I don't fully get the concept of the water dancer. Is it (view spoiler)[ that water dancing = conducting (hide spoiler)]? It's obviously central to the book and left feeling like I didn't get it...

Bretnie wrote: "I just finished and haven't quite decided what I think yet. The first half captivated me but once it got into "conducting" I started to have mixed feelings. I liked the concept, but just found myse..."

I think Water Dancing references multiple aspects of the book. It is (a) conducting, (b) the actual juba dance with the water jug and (c) the historical account of slaves exercising their one option when everything else was stripped from them - jumping into the waves.

Ruthiella wrote: "I think Water Dancing references multiple aspects of the book. It is (a) conducting, (b) the actual juba dance with the water jug and (c) the historical account of slaves exercising their one option when everything else was stripped from them - jumping into the waves. "

Thank you Ruthiella, that's helpful!

I’m torn on this one. I think the writing is lovely, but often I got lost in the poetry of it and lost the thread of narrative. I think the conversation around white and black abolitionists was really interesting—the one being Against the Task and the other being For the Tasked. It certainly made me think differently about what it means to work towards being both against white supremacy and for the advancement of black people. Against and for. Two different activities. Definitely worth a read, though I wonder if Coates has another novel in him, or if he’ll spend the rest of his time writing the nonfiction he’s known (rightly) for.