Tournament of Books discussion

thread to discuss Your House Will Pay by Steph Cha

I just finished this. Of the shortlisted books I've read, this is my favorite. It reminds me a little bit of The House of Broken Angels.

I finished this just before the zombie vote in case it managed to top Girl, Woman, Other. It was really good, reminded me of All American Boys (which I highly recommend), but I'm a little uneasy about some of the underlying messaging. It felt a bit heavier on the Korean perspective, along with Black families forgiving... I think the main idea was balancing the perspectives and looking for ways to find peace and understanding across differences, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt, but I'd like to hear from various Black readers on their take. For now it's getting 4.5 stars from me and I look forward to the tournament discussion of this one.

Just started this and I'm about halfway through the audiobook--it's riveting! The readers are doing a fantastic job.

Me, too. Not sure how I feel about it yet, though. Just hit the half-way point.

Finished this book. I found the whole book was asking can you forgive unforgivable circumstances? This seemed to be an underlying premise with all the characters in the story. I gave the book 4 stars. I thought the writing was easy to read even though the subject matter is tough.

I also gave it 4 stars, for much the same reasons. I thought it was straightforward writing that illustrated a not straightforward reality, and gave equal time to almost all points of view. Well done.

I gave this 4*, although I could nitpick about a few things, for example (view spoiler)[I found it odd Miriam would write Shawn a letter (that Darryl hid), telling him where her mother was (hide spoiler)]. Towards the very end, I also started to lose a little of the sense of authenticity I'd felt for the rest of the book. Well-done overall, though. I admire the author for tackling such a difficult subject.

I just finished this, and I really loved it (but also, anything Steph Cha writes is an automatic read for me).

Lauren, the thing that made me a little uneasy was (view spoiler)[ making Ava's death slightly more complicated/ambiguous than Latasha Harlin's was. I think the author was trying to make a point about victims being real, complicated people and the kinds of narratives that you can build out of anyone's life and the pressure on black victims of crime to be perfect victims and the way that those narratives flatten the people they actually were, but it doesn't quite sit right with me because there is zero question that Latasha Harlins was, in fact, trying to pay for her juice. (hide spoiler)]

Ann, I hear you on the spoiler part, but that ultimately worked for me because (view spoiler)[ it seemed in character for Miriam to write more than perhaps was wise or intended in order to salve her conscience. (hide spoiler)]

Natalie wrote: "I just finished this, and I really loved it (but also, anything Steph Cha writes is an automatic read for me).

Lauren, the thing that made me a little uneasy was [spoilers removed]

Ann, I hear yo..."

Yes, that was a tricky thing to navigate. I think I see the reasoning behind why the author likely went the route she did, but this stuff gets dicey. I did note this line that stood out, which speaks to this, "He hated that perfection was what the world required to mourn her."

Kristina wrote: "Finished this book. I found the whole book was asking can you forgive unforgivable circumstances? This seemed to be an underlying premise with all the characters in the story. I gave the book 4 sta..."

Totally agree Kristina, I think forgiveness is a major theme. :-)

Lauren wrote: "I'm a little uneasy about some of the underlying messaging. It felt a bit heavier on the Korean perspective, along with Black families forgiving... "

Kristina wrote: "Finished this book. I found the whole book was asking can you forgive unforgivable circumstances?

I thought the sections alternated pretty much evenly, and Shawn really seemed like the center of the story to me. The author is Korean-American, though, so maybe the Korean-focused sections felt more authentic or packed more of a punch.

I also will be honest here and say that I have never really understood the concept of "forgiveness." What is it even supposed to entail, exactly? People are always saying you have to "forgive," but I don't usually understand what they mean. I absolutely agree that forgiveness was definitely a theme, but I'm not sure that either of the families truly got to that point, perhaps because of my confusion about what it is, and I think the book takes a nuanced and multi-faceted approach to the question of forgiveness and what it means.

Aunt Sheila stated that she forgave Yvonne/Jung-Ja during the rally, but what do we take that to mean? The dictionary defines "forgive" as "stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake," but when Grace goes to visit her and says that she knows her mom is sorry, Aunt Sheila "hardens" and says that Jung-Ja manipulated, lied, etc., and they aren't "fool enough" to believe she is sorry. I am totally with Aunt Sheila on this one, but the way it's written and presented it sounds like what she's feeling is anger and resentment. Does Aunt Sheila only stop feeling angry and resentful toward her once she is dead? ("Only the dead are forgiven"?) Or does she still feel resentment? I know I would in her place. To be clear, I think any of these options are fine and as a wronged party Aunt Sheila is under no obligation to even consider "forgiveness," and if she wants to, she is free to execute it to any degree she feels comfortable with.

I don't think Shawn necessarily forgives, either; part of what Darryl states has compelled him to shoot Yvonne/Jung-Ja is his worry over Shawn's reaction if he were to get the information about her. Shawn understands that he is still very angry about it, and he is cold (again, understandably, justifiably) toward Grace when she visits the family home. When he steps up at the rally in the final chapter to intervene with the crowd that is converging around her, it's more to do with his interest in protecting his own nephew than anything to do with her. The narrative makes this clear: "Grace stood behind her with a dreamlike look on her face, and she was still holding one of Darryl’s hands. The boy cowered beside her, but he had nowhere to hide. Shawn had to do something. ... But what good would it do, for this mob to unleash their outrage on them? It would bring trouble to Darryl, and it would accomplish nothing else." He's not acting out of forgiveness.

Does Grace forgive? Hard to say, I think; at the moment with Darryl, I think she's still in too much shock to really process things. Right before she reaches out to him and attains that that "dreamlike look," she is consumed with hate and anger for him. I think we're meant to believe that maybe something transcendent is taking place, and maybe she truly is forgiving, or in that moment letting go of her anger enough to feel some understanding of the humanity of another person; we know she recognizes his fear and fragility. But what about later that day, or that month or year? I believe she won't ever decide to come forward with her knowledge or press charges, but will she have truly forgiven, to the point where she feels no resentment? How is it even possible to not feel resentment for the untimely death of a loved one due to premeditated murder?

There are people in my life who have absolutely wronged me in truly-not-okay ways. I find it difficult to hold a grudge, and there is zero heat or anger when I think about them. But I would still not say that I have "forgiven" these people. There is still blame ("responsibility for a fault or wrong") and negative impressions. I would be extremely surprised if Shawn, Aunt Sheila, or Grace could ever get to the point where they don't have a negative impression and find fault with the actions of their loved ones' killers. Is simply refraining from taking action to hurt someone enough to constitute forgiveness? Refraining from wishing them ill will? What "counts"?

Curious to hear others' take on forgiveness, what it means ideally or practically, and the degree to which different characters did or did not forgive.

Awesome Steph Cha thread

https://twitter.com/stephycha/status/...

Paige, you raise interesting questions. I'm not quite finished with this book, so won't be able to comment specifically on this theme within it...but I read an excellent piece on forgiveness once that seems to capture what works for me. It basically said "forgiveness is not forgetting. It does not mean everything is ok. It does not mean a change of mind or heart toward the offender. It does not mean one's feelings have changed toward the offender. Forgiveness means one makes the willfull decision to not retaliate against the offender. ...it means to cease fighting back, actively, passively, passive-aggressively, personally or communally. Forgiveness is not reconciliation. While reconcilliation is bilateral, forgivenes is unilatrral."

It sounds like some of this is embedded in the various reactions of these characters. Thanks to your thoughts, I'll be keeping this in mind as I finish the novel. I think I have 25% left to read.

Jason wrote: "Awesome Steph Cha thread

https://twitter.com/stephycha/status/..."

Thanks for sharing this! I just went down the rabbit hole through that for about an hour. It's very relevant to the conversation we're having in the "ToB shortlist" thread.

Carmel wrote: "Paige, you raise interesting questions. I'm not quite finished with this book, so won't be able to comment specifically on this theme within it...but I read an excellent piece on forgiveness once t..."

Yes, lots of good questions here from Paige and a helpful definition to consider. I have more to say on this subject later, when I'm less distracted by this other conversation. ;)

I've finished this one, now, and here are my thoughts, via my review.

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

This book bowled me over, whewwwweeee. I teared up listening to the audiobook multiple times at work — that bath scene! The milk :( The realization that Miriam still makes her own kimchi. I found so much of this book powerful and emotionally complicated, and the ease of Cha’s prose did wonderful work in getting the reader to really dig in and listen to these warring perspectives. (Also, not to knock her writing by calling it ‘easy’ as I think this probably took a tremendous amount of modulation and revising for this to look as effortless as it does.)

I will own that maybe I’m just being the dumb white guy here, but the arcs of the Park sisters truly blew me away. I found Grace’s struggles with squaring the great mother that raised her with, well, the woman that her mother was, absolutely emotionally devastating. I love stories where kids are made to see how their parents are simply flawed people like the rest of us, but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen it pushed to this extreme, which just dialed up the emotional stakes imo. Y’all have talked a lot about forgiveness, and I think it’s not just between the families. How do you forgive your family for lying to you like Grace’s did? What IS the proper reaction to the discovery of news of this magnitude? How can you atone for something you didn’t do, or do you just desperately want to be told “it’s okay” so that you personally feel better? What is the difference? I found all of the roiling emotions in her story to be completely overwhelming and has really made me introspective about some of my own answers.

And Miriam. Ho boy. I was SO irritated with her in the beginning of the novel with her (what looked like) performative activism and her annoying ‘woke’ boyfriend and her rejection of her parents. By the end of the novel, I think she was the most interesting of all the characters. She represents a long-term attempt to somehow, as Darryl says at the end, “DO something” instead of just perform outrage to make herself feel better. And when I probed why I found her so annoying at first, it is probably because I don’t do a whole heck of a lot re: social justice issues and conversations. Perhaps I dislike the people who are trying (imperfectly, of course) because they make me notice how little I myself try.

Jesus. Sorry, didn’t mean to go on and on. But I loved this book so deeply, and it’s still working its way through me. My personal vote probably still goes to On Earth, but I’m now rooting for Cha to take the rooster; not only do I doubt Vuong’s chances to go all the way (too loose a narrative maybe? Too specific and poetic?), but Cha has written a very of-the-moment thing that grapples in an appealingly messy and human way for some understanding of an incomprehensible horror.


P.S. still haven’t read GWO or Trust Exercise, so I guess I could still switch my vote. But I doubt it.

Aaron, you expressed perfectly exactly how I feel about this book! I could never have put my feelings into words in the way that you did so I thank you for that. I loved this book so much as well! I wish I had picked it for my zombie vote.

You’re so kind, Kim! Thanks so much. I too wish I had picked this as my zombie, but I think it’s got a good shot at the top prize so hopefully it won’t need our votes! Fingers crossed

Aaron, wonderful thoughts about what this book offers! Thank you! It did have some interesting complexities that were well done.

It'll be a tough matchup since there's a lot of love for On Earth, but I'll be rooting for Your House Will Pay also.

My kindle loan just ended but I have an audio loan now that I’ll switch over to thanks to the effusive praise here!

I know I’m gonna guess wrong on the bracket for this vs. On Earth!!

I loved the audio version of this one!

I’ve been bouncing between audio and print for almost all these bc I adopted a VERY active dog recently, and this was by far my favorite audiobook of the shortlist. Big thumbs up.

Aaron wrote: "This book bowled me over, whewwwweeee. I teared up listening to the audiobook multiple times at work — that bath scene! The milk :( The realization that Miriam still makes her own kimchi. I found s..."

Very thoughtful comments here - thanks for sharing!

I wish this one were going up against Overthrow or Trust Exercise, since I'd like to see both this and OEWBG move forward. :(

Great story! I listened to the audio and wasn't aware that this is based on the true story of Latasha Harlins in the 1990's until a friend told me.

Paige, love your comments on forgiveness and I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why this book didn't work for me quite as strongly as I expected it to. I couldn't articulate it as well as you did, but while reading I felt like the book was unfinished. I felt like we were just left hanging at the end and I got no real resolution for the characters.

I also read a lot of social justice based lit. I am wondering if perhaps I read too much. Some of Grace's storyline felt a little too on the nose, like I've already been down this road with the non-Black character trying to understand the Black characters. I did really like Miriam as a charater, as Aaron pointed out, her attempt to actually do something.