SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Are we bored of dragons or do we want more? We keep writing about them but I am wondering if we will ever quit reading about them? Is there a twist on dragons that hasn't been discovered yet? Personally, I am a dragon fan! What about you?

If there is a twist that hasn't been used yet, someone is probably in the process of writing that twist right now =P

I like dragons, but I also recognize that they are limited in how they can appear. It's almost always a medieval society with swords and magic (how else can giant flying lizards breathe fire?), and dragons are either mindless killing machines or highly-intelligent creatures (often speaking in some Old Tongue or True Language). In any case, they have a great capacity for destruction, so they're like the nuclear option of fantasy creatures. You can probably have one to great effect.

Of course, flying fire-breathers is only one interpretation of how dragons can appear, but it's the predominant Western style of dragon. I think "How To Train Your Dragon" is the most creative recent twist on dragons, throwing them together with Vikings and making them have a bunch of different abilities and appearances.

A life ago my first fantasy books were Tracy Hickman Margaret Weis's Dragonlance Chronicles. Loved them and almost all the sequels too. The Hobbit and lots of novels more. The wonderful red dragon by Larry Elmore artist on old Dungeons & Dragons old basic set introduced me to the world of role-playing games. Now I'm likin'a lot George R.R. Martin's Game of Thrones series. So yes, I'm a dragon fan. :)

Dragon is a convenient term for a creature that man has not hitherto encountered. As in George and the Dragon - most likely a Nile crocodile. So I feel writers are at perfect liberty to imagine up any weird creature and call it a dragon. No need to be bound to traditional preconceptions.

I've been a fan of dragons for about 11 years now. I'm more attracted to stories where the dragons are portrayed as intelligent creatures, good or bad depending on the individual.

For the last 10 years, I've been working on a series of books (Draconia: Forging Trust, Draconia: Fractured Dream, Draconia: Rehatching) that immerses dragons in a science fiction universe. Now, I know there have been authors before me who have written science fiction with dragons (Alan Dean Foster's Flinx and Pip series, McCaffrey's Pern series), but I have yet to find a book where this is done to such a scale.

I do have a soft spot for dragons- I grew up on Pern (where dragons are pretty much idealized horses), love the good and evil dragons in Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionovar tapestry, The Dragon and the George, The Man Who Painted The Dragon Griaule, and How to Train Your Dragon (I watched it because of my kids, but I liked it a lot).

I'd like to see more non-Western depictions of dragons in Western fantasy, and something a bit more complex than dragons are good/evil. Rob Sawyer wrote a fun trilogy about dinosaurs ( Far-Seer), and while I loved it, I wish that someone would do that for dragons.

Lynn wrote: "Are we bored of dragons or do we want more? We keep writing about them but I am wondering if we will ever quit reading about them? Is there a twist on dragons that hasn't been discovered yet? Perso..."

Love Dragons. Can't wait till I get to the point where they appear in my series.

I thought they had been done to death, but then I read TOOTH & CLAW by Jo Walton.

I'm still waiting for a book that I've always envisioned dragons to be like. These are beasts that can destroy the world and cause men to live perpetually in fear. I've not seen that, although Dragonlance comes the closest, in my opinion.

Still, I haven't read that many dragon books.

I was going to avoid dragons, and chose griffins and unicorns for some of my main creatures, but then there is something alluring about dragons and since my book is consentrated around the elements and particularly fire, I ended up writing them in as a big part of book two in the series.

I was afraid people were over dragons, but I guess they hold a special place in most fantasy lovers' hearts! I know they do in mine :)

Hmmm...tricky!

But for fun and games (and romance and gore) you can't beat G.A. Aiken's Dragon Kin series - totally irrepressible, but you need to like "love" and HEA's :)

Basically, shape-shifters and magic, but some totally laugh-out-loud one-liners! As I said - FUN!!

I was reading one of the Clarkesworld anthologies earlier this year and came across Orm the Beautiful by Elizabeth Bear. She tells a fun modern take on dragons that haunted my mind for a bit. It's got gems and music and museums.

That Orm story - it's just the short that you link to? Or is that a sample of a novel?

Bored. Bored of all the standard mythical critters: dragons, elves, orcs, unicorns, zombies, vampires, werewolves, blah, blah, blah. They've all been done to death.

Dragons are useful for a lot of things. though it gets particularly fun when you try to use Eastern European dragons, which can get fun because they are a lot smaller than the more westerly varieties.

The Orm story by Bear is quite good, and definitely a fresh take.

But in general, I'd like to see more creativity and less reliance on tropes.

Yeah, you guys need to read Jo Walton's take on it. These are so not your grandpa's dragons.

As far as I can tell, the story is stand-alone.

There are no boring ideas or overused tropes, just bad writers.

It's on my list, Brenda! :)
Of course I agree, Trike - but a mediocre writer who comes up with a neat new monster (or other concept) can still catch my attention & get a positive review from me.

Trike wrote: "There are no boring ideas or overused tropes, just bad writers."

However, some ideas and tropes need more writerly skill than others.

Here's the best quote I've heard on the topic:

In other words, whether a scene in which a dragon is introduced is affecting, amusing, or agonizingly dull depends primarily on the choices made by the scene's author. I say "primarily" because dragons have appeared in thousands of stories over the centuries, and almost any reader may be presumed to have been exposed to at least one such. The reader's reaction will naturally be influenced by how they feel this new dragon compares to the dragons which they have been introduced to in the past. (Favorably, one would hope. A dragon must learn to make a good first impression if it is to do well in this life. -- Alec Austin

I love me a good dragon story. I've always been a fan of the dragonlance books. One of my favorite dragon tales is a movie called Reign of Fire. Set in a modern day, post apocalyptic type setting because the dragons came back after hundreds of years. No magic or medieval times here.

Don wrote: "Don Chase (donchase) | 10 comments I love me a good dragon story. I've always been a fan of the dragonlance books. One of my favorite dragon tales is a movie called Reign of Fire. Set in a modern day, post apocalyptic type setting because the dragons came back after hundreds of years. No magic or medieval times here."

There was magic in Reign of Fire in that they had to kill the main dragon in order to kill all the others. They might as well have said they needed to get Excalibur in order to win. Also, the first dragon had been in hibernation for who knows how long. Just waiting around for someone to open the cave, like you do.

I was kind of bummed RoF didn't have the budget to do a full-on aerial dogfight between dragons and helicopters or jets. The closest we've ever gotten to "Dragons versus the Military" is in Avatar. Which, come on, that sequence is the whole reason that movie exists.

I love me a good dragon story when done well. I'm reading The Widow's House by Daniel Abraham and I'm in love with the dragon Inys! But then, I love everything Abraham does.

As with most things, it is depend what is done with it and how. I read Dragon Fate and that was great.

The reason they had to kill the main dragon in RoF wasn't magic, it was because he was the only male left. Without him they couldn't reproduce and they would die off.

I am getting the sense that most of you are in favor of dragons (as long as the story is well-written).

As some of you have mentioned, dragons can appear in many different shapes and sizes, both intelligent and not. Also, they don't have to be fire breathing monsters ;) They could originate from the deep ocean just as easily as from above the clouds. I do think they are great for creating some spectacular imagery!

Don wrote: "The reason they had to kill the main dragon in RoF wasn't magic, it was because he was the only male left. Without him they couldn't reproduce and they would die off."

Which is another way of saying "magic."

It is absolutely preposterous that the entire globe could be taken over by female dragons with only one male impregnating them all. Think of the chafing. It was just a rationalization.

Lynn wrote: "I am getting the sense that most of you are in favor of dragons (as long as the story is well-written).

As some of you have mentioned, dragons can appear in many different shapes and sizes, both i..."

Funny you should mention deep seas - I'm currently tooling around with the idea of dragons as primarily aquatic predators. I thought that it made sense, seeing as the only carnivorous animals to even come close to the archetypical size of a dragon in real life are breeds of fish and aquatic mammals.

I myself am a bit of a sucker for most of the classic fantasy tropes, though in terms of dragons I do like seeing creative variations (eg. Rothfuss' draccus, Sullivan's Gilarabrywn)

A.L. wrote: "...I read Dragon Fate and that was great."

Thanks for the mention! Hearing that never gets old. :)

I don't think reading about dragons or writing about them will ever get old, either.

Jen wrote: "I do have a soft spot for dragons- I grew up on Pern (where dragons are pretty much idealized horses)"

Oh gods, what have you done to my childhood?

I really enjoyed the dragons in Naomi Novik's Temeraire series, although I don't know they radically different from other dragons, such as the ones in the Pern books. But it's a lovely, fun world Novik has created.

I thought the crazy, smart CEO dragons of the Shadowrun RPG were fun. Well, fun as a GM anyway....

Jen would appreciate the fact that my wife won;t go with me to see the last of Peter Jackson's Hobbit Movies Dec. 17, becasue I implied that Smaug gets his just desserts. She likes Smaug. She doesn't want to see him hurt or killed...

Here's a new series with dragons in a new world I just discovered:
The Dragon Ring

I'm generally bored with the European Medieval dragon tropes. I wish more authors would explore Eastern mythology, or invent new mythologies for giant flying beasts.

How about the giant flying feathered serpents of the American Southwestern Puebloan cultures? Mostly called Avanyu, they bring huge, sudden change.

And people should read THE FLIGHT OF DRAGONS by Peter Dickinson. The only nonfiction book about dragons you are ever likely to see.

Cool! Thanks for the referral!

Peter wrote: "I thought the crazy, smart CEO dragons of the Shadowrun RPG were fun. Well, fun as a GM anyway.... "


I'm glad you mentioned that! I recently pulled my old SuperNES out of a dusty drawer just to replay Shadowrun again for the first time in 15 years or so. I think even with the dated graphics, it still stands up to lots of today's games, and having a dragon heading up a cybernetic corporation was pure genius.

Having said that, I've always loved dragons. In books, movies, games, anime, everywhere and any style. When I wrote my first Folcrist books, I had to make a decision about how to handle fantasy creatures. I didn't want to overwhelm the world with them, but I definitely wanted them to be present here and there. I was already planning the trilogy around the presence of vast herds of minotaurs, which is a creature I haven't seen used as often as I might have imagined in fantasy fiction. I think I was probably influenced by the fact that the first fantasy novel I ever read was The Legend of Huma, which had intelligent minotaurs.

But even so, I simply could not turn away from dragons. What would be the fun in writing if I did?? So I took my own approach, which is a combination of several of my favorite dragon approaches together with my own twist. :) And if you have read my Crimson Kings trilogy and are asking, "There were dragons? Where were they?", I assure you they were there. I just hid them in plain sight. I expect most readers figured it out by the end of volume three. The duology I am working on right now brings another dragon into the wold, and I REALLY can't wait to finish the duology so I can start on the next trilogy! The dragon I have planned for that is going to be so much fun to work with!

-Damien Lake (Chronicles of the Crimson Kings)

Is nobody is going to mention the dragon in Monster Hunter.

*He owns runs a Casino called The Last Dragon in Vegas, made his roost on the top floor.
*Is Ebay obssessed and is constantly buying/selling rare things on ebay/other online auctions.
*Though multiple online support groups for hoarders he was able to overcome his instincts and sell/get rid of items he doesn't physically see/touch.
*Forces people to sign a non-disclosure agreement about his existance.

I love dragons, cant get enough of them.Preferably benign and intelligent, although I wont say no to the baddies.

I've recently gotten into Shadowrun, I'm loving the dragons in that universe. Basically totally immoral schemers behind the scenes of everything - a dragon is the CEO of the biggest corporation on the planet, and another was president of the United States.

Ooh Liam, that sounds good. Will look it up.

Interesting discussion. Most people seem to like dragons, though there are a few cautious notes. Personally, I like them, but within limits. I tend not to write them, I want to keep them rare - but in my other hobby, woodcarving, I run pretty close to dragon-obsessed. Funny how context changes attitudes.
Favourites?
Early McCaffrey, less fond of the more recent work.
Peter Dickinson The Flight of Dragons is something I use for visual reference for carving.
Rothfuss The Name of the Wind has a nice twist on a drug-addicted dragon-equivalent.
But I didn't like Reign of Fire - just an action movie with not much to appeal to the intellect.

I have always liked the elvenblood series by Andre Norton and Mercedes Lackey

I loved reading Eragon.

Brenda wrote: "And people should read THE FLIGHT OF DRAGONS by Peter Dickinson. The only nonfiction book about dragons you are ever likely to see."

I loved that book! I've been a big fan of dragons since I was young: Pern, Temeraire, Dragonlance, Tolkien, le Guin. At one point I would buy any book as long as it had a dragon on the cover (found a couple of really bad books that way).

I have a big collection of dragon statues too, so it's no surprise that there are plenty of dragons in my own writing. In my new book I've brought them into modern-day Sydney, which was fun, but I still love the traditional epic fantasy-type dragons.

(And yes, I agree that Anne MacCaffrey's dragons were just souped-up horses. No wonder I loved them so much as a teenager!)

I'm a newbie writer and my first book is at the editor, but I have smart dragons, some good, some very bad. I wanted to write a book with dragons, but they almost didn't make it in. I love Pern, Tolkien, and anyone else. I'm about to start reading one of Daniel Arenson's trilogies. Anybody read them? Are they good?

I love them!
Do you guys know some good novels with elemental dragons? Like earth, fire, wind, water and metal?

I am absolutely enamored with dragons, although only some of the short stories in my book incorporate them.