Once Upon a Time... discussion

We'll be reading Bitter Greens by Kate Forsyth this month! I already have the book from the library and will begin reading it very soon!

Just picked it up today, but need to finish another book first (I don't like to read two at a time) so won't start for a few more days.

I'm looking to join in with you guys so I just put it on hold at the library as well! Should only take a day or two to get in which gives me time to also finish the book I've been reading. :)

Lisa and Shanna, this is going to be fun!!! To see how we like this one;)

Lisa, I'm in the middle of a book too and as soon as I finish it, Bitter Greens is up.

Shanna, I'm excited you're here. Our monthly group discussions have been really good. Hopefully, you'll enjoy them too.

Starting this tonight or tomorrow!!! Anyone else?!?

I will be starting it tomorrow after I pick it up from the library. :) Took a bit longer to come in then anticipated.

Shanna wrote: "I will be starting it tomorrow after I pick it up from the library. :) Took a bit longer to come in then anticipated."

Awesome!!!!

I never saw an ebook at the library have a list of holds! For this book, I'm 4th on the list so forget that, I just went ahead and bought it. $11 is crazy expensive for a kindle book, given I read so many free/99c books (more so now that I do kindle unlimited) so I hope that doesn't bias me against the book right from the start!


But, I'll be starting it tonight!

Diane wrote: "I never saw an ebook at the library have a list of holds! For this book, I'm 4th on the list so forget that, I just went ahead and bought it. $11 is crazy expensive for a kindle book, given I rea..."

Diane, I feel like we should take up a fund for you, lol! That is pricey. Perhaps this will make you feel a little bit better, I don't know if you're like me, but since I do most of my reading for pleasure before I go to sleep, I love-love-love reading on my kindle! (I don't have a lamp by my bed, so with the backlight, I can read til I'm drowsy and pretty much just roll over and drift off. Very nice!) So I'm reading a library copy for Bitter Greens. It's pretty thick and I found I had to keep shifting cause it's so heavy, lol. I went to sleep with a pretty big crick in my neck and shoulders;) I was like: I should just get the dang ebook!

So... my first thoughts: I loved the opening. Overall, I'm enjoying the story. One of my favorite series that I read as a teenager, when they didn't have YA was the Angelique series written by Seargeanne Golon, a French husband and wife. It has eight books and is no longer in print, although I have my paperback collection! (view spoiler)[In that series, several of the books focus on Versailles, the second one is entirely about the court. Probably one of the best literary depictions of Versailles out there. My guess. Anyway, it's hard not to compare to that when I'm reading other versions of the court, but I think if I'd not read that series, Forsyth's representation would be pretty good. Less detailed, but still capturing the essence of the court. I did wonder if the Angelique mentioned in Bitter Greens was inspiration for the Golon's series main character. (hide spoiler)] <<<< I made that a spoiler, just in case. Don't want to ruin anyone's reading pleasure!!!

Anyway, my favorite scene so far in Bitter Greens is the (view spoiler)[scene in the garden. (hide spoiler)] That's where I stopped off last night.

Heidi wrote: "It's pretty thick and I found I had to keep shifting cause it's so heavy, lol. I went to sleep with a pretty big crick in my neck and shoulders;) "

LMAO. Although, laughing aside, that DOES make me feel better! :P

Haven't starting reading it yet, but I do remember an Angelique series that I read a long time ago. It was somewhat risqué. Wonder if that is the same series? I'll have to look it up.

Diane wrote: "LMAO. Although, laughing aside,that DOES make me feel better! :P"

Ha! good!

Lisa wrote: "Haven't starting reading it yet, but I do remember an Angelique series that I read a long time ago. It was somewhat risqué. Wonder if that is the same series? I'll have to look it up."

Oh, yes, I think so. The series is rather steamy. Back when I was a mere teen;) we sought out those sexy books... to cope with our burgeoning hormones, I suppose. BUT it was not just risqué, it was also great scenery, adventure, historical fiction, and they even had elements of MYSTICISM which was probably why I really loved them lol.

Lisa, do you remember if you liked them?

Yes, I did really enjoy them. I would actually skim over most of the erotic parts to get to the actual content of the story. I do remember that I was never able to complete the entire series because I couldn't find them all from the library at the time, and didn't have the funds to buy them myself.

Lisa wrote: "Yes, I did really enjoy them. I would actually skim over most of the erotic parts to get to the actual content of the story. I do remember that I was never able to complete the entire series becaus..."

I'm glad you liked them. That's fascinating you skimmed over the erotic parts. I had a friend in junior high and didn't realize we did buddy reads, but we did. She'd highlight the racy bits and we'd pass them around at school. Um... not sure what that says about us! But my dad was also an avid reader and I'd raid his paperback bookcase all the time. (I got Angelique from my friend though, not him, lol!) My parents were very strict about what time I came home, no sleepovers, no dating till a certain age, but my passionate/romantic nature was on overload I guess! And my reading was completely uncensored. Which to be honest, I'm truly grateful for! My friend and I also read a lot of Rosemary Rogers and those type books too, but I thought Angelique was actually a great series. About five years ago, I bought up all the books, used, on Amazon. They were hard to find and I had to pay a lot for one. But I read them all again. There were some racist parts, which threw me, (Kind of like Tarzan) if you've ever re-read that (Oy! Makes you shudder!) but the historical fiction, intrigue, geographical adventures, and, yes the MYSTICISM really held up. There's a book where Angelique goes to the New World and has encounters with the natives. They are some beautiful beautiful passages as they honor the traditions of that culture, and those are the strongest mystical parts in the series. I was so pleasantly surprised on the re-read because I didn't remember any of that. Sorry to gush, but to me that was a really unique series. I've never come across anything quite like. It was a completely epic romance, and the historical fiction aspect of it was stunning to me:) So... LOTR, Angelique, Salem's Lot, The Stand, The Dead Zone, and the Chroniciles of Narnia are my seminal influences.. hmm... nuts! Although as an adult I've had to add a love for Gabriel Garcia Marqez, Alice Hoffman... okay!!!! Time for me to SHUT UP!!!!

And... about Bitter Greens. I was pleasantly surprised to find that (view spoiler)[this is a darker retelling. As we've discussed in some of these threads: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group..., the original fairy tales were much darker than the disney versions. Forsyth's re-telling is dark. The sorceress bites off Margherita's finger, OMG! And then that scene in the tower with the "wash my hair"! Very chilling. The sorceress is a creepy female predator! And all the awful lies/brainwashing. UGH! But I like that, not because it is dark, but because there's truth to: What kind of woman would steal a child and lock her up in a tower? A pretty awful one! (hide spoiler)] So you can read that spoiler without ruining anything after you finish Cantata;)

Not reading the Bitter Greens spoilers yet - I'm finally starting that book tonight. Thought some of you might find what my grandson said about it entertaining. I asked him to put the book I just finished in the bookbag and get the other thick book and put it on the table near by chair. We have been studying vegetables for health class, and he had heard Shanna and I saying it was about Rapunzel, so his question was, "You mean the vegetable (bitter greens)one about Tangled?"

Lisa wrote: " Thought some of you might find what my grandson said about it entertaining. I asked him to put the book I just f..."

That is so cute! I confess I haven't watched Tangled, but it is also a Rapunzel retelling, yes? And they mention the (green) vegetables in the movie? I like that:) Very cool he made that connection,

Tangled is about Rapunzel, but I don't recall any vegetables being mentioned in the movie. He just knows that greens are vegetables since we had talked about leafy green vegetables and the fact that many of them could taste bitter.

Lisa wrote: "Tangled is about Rapunzel, but I don't recall any vegetables being mentioned in the movie. He just knows that greens are vegetables since we had talked about leafy green vegetables and the fact tha..."

Ahh!

Half-way through Lament. I'd save this spoiler until you're done with that section! (view spoiler)[So I guess Bitter Greens ISN'T a YA read. I didn't realize that, not that I want to read just YA fairy tales, because I don't. But it is becoming progressively darker with little (NO?!?) cheer in sight. I'm mid-La Strega's story and it's just very dark. I was pleased with the initial grimness, but part of me is like... WHOA, this is really dark! Is this what all the reviews means when they call it "complex"? Anyway, curious to hear other's thoughts. For me this has become another slow read;) (hide spoiler)]

Okey Dokey:) I finished the book this weekend.

It's not a light read. It's not a YA read (for some reason I thought that it was!). And I'm still absorbing it all.

Haven't gotten too far yet, but to be honest, so far it's just depressing for the most part.

Lisa wrote: "Haven't gotten too far yet, but to be honest, so far it's just depressing for the most part."

After a promising start, it did seem to head straight for an emotional ditch and then just seemed to keep digging deeper.

I kept thinking the execution of the braiding of the stories (I loved the concept) came out dreary in many places. Finishing felt like a testament of my commitment to this group;) at the same time, I'm glad I did read it.

It definitely covers the issues women dealt with in those days. I did like the aspect that Forsyth came at the whole tale from the perspective of a writer, but yeah, depressing.

Lisa, do you think you'll finish? Anyone else tackling it? Diane, I know you bought it. If you get through it, will be interested in your thoughts. There were some things I really loved about it. And honestly, there's just a whole lot there, very layered, from premise, to structure, to execution. Leaves you with a lot to think about, and perhaps a lot to be thankful for.

There were a couple of final points that I wasn't quite satisfied with, but it was a hugely ambitious undertaking and I respect Kate Forysyth for that. I have a copy of "The Wild Girl" on my nightstand and will read it. But... probably not too soon, as I fear it might be equally dark. I do appreciate dark aspects in a story, but I equally appreciate light:)

I'm honestly not sure if I will finish it or not. I'm not at the point of saying "forget this!" yet. It is holding my interest, but at the same time, I keep wishing for some glimmer of light.

There are a few glimmers ahead..

Yay! I'll keep on going. It takes a lot for me to give up on a book.

I still have yet to start it... yikes! It's sitting beside me and I keep looking at it thinking I need to start it. I am going to commit myself to starting it tonight!

Shanna wrote: "I still have yet to start it... yikes! It's sitting beside me and I keep looking at it thinking I need to start it. I am going to commit myself to starting it tonight!"

This is pretty much what has happened to me. I bought it and then for some reason I just couldn't/didn't start it. Like, I just keep balking at the idea of starting it. Why?!? Maybe a premonition of dislike, now that I read all the above. :)

But I did pay 11bucks for this dang book so start it I will. TOMORROW.

So.... I've been thinking about this book, cause even though it goes from bad to worse, it's kind of a literary retelling. It's not just for entertainment:) I think it might have been possible to make it a bit more cheery in spots, but that doesn't seem to have been the author's goal. I used to study astrology, mostly because I'm fascinated by depth psychology, and the symbolism in astrology—the planets and the houses—are great for conveying those concepts. ANYWAY... Bitter Greens, to me is a very Saturn story. Saturn as a concept is where each of our individual paths are difficult, and challenged. It's where in our lives we have to work hard for our rewards, but when we get them, they're pretty huge. Bitter Greens is Charlotte Rose's story. If I was an astrologer, which I'm not, I'd say she had a strong Saturn to her chart. VERY STRONG, lol. But, in the end, there is this beauty. Okay, it wouldn't have hurt if Forsyth had spent a few more pages on the spiritual beauty aspect of her story! But the payoff is there. And if you're an avid reader, reader of fairy tales, and/or writer... I think the story leaves a lot to think about. I rate books on: if i can't put it down, even if I didn't like it, I'll rate it higher. If I loved it pretty much unequivocally, I give it a very high rating. If there's something intensely clever about the plot, premise, or execution, I'll rate it higher. Some books are hard to swallow but they leave their imprint, and you just keep returning to them in your mind. I'll rate a book higher if it leaves that kind of imprint. Bitter Greens is one of those books. It just leaves you thinking. But Forsyth, does force you to take Charlotte Rose's difficult journey with her, and yes, much of it is unpleasant:( So... I will say: The book is very aptly titled;) Heehee.

Diane wrote: "But I did pay 11bucks for this dang book so start it I will.."

Yes, you must read it!!!! And when you do, I look forward to hearing your thoughts as they are always insightful. And perhaps, by the end... you might like it. Love it? Hmmm... maybe!

Well I finally started it today whilst at the doctors office. I managed to make it to page 62. Yes... it was a long wait. lol Anyway, I can't say I'm "enjoying" it but it is an interesting read. I am also an individual that is guilty of skimming at certain times so if parts get too "boggy" as I say I'm likely to skip a few sentences. Overall though it's kept my interest. I'm about to get into the retelling of the Rapunzel story and am looking forward to that. It's been a bit fascinating to see through the eyes of a woman such as the main character and the situation she's been placed in. I don't think I will ever look at a nunnery the same way.

Diane wrote: "Shanna wrote: "I still have yet to start it... yikes! It's sitting beside me and I keep looking at it thinking I need to start it. I am going to commit myself to starting it tonight!"

This is pret..."

Hahah! I understand Diane! I think part of it was that I had been seeing other post about it and it's such a large book. I also usually have very little time to put aside for simply reading so I was trying to gear myself up for tackling something other than the funnier romantic fluff I read. It's been a bit of a nice change of pace though. Something that actually has a more extensive story and plot then what I've been reading regularly. I hope you enjoy it!

Shanna wrote: " I am also an individual that is guilty of skimming at certain times so if parts get too "boggy" as I say I'm likely to skip a few sentences."

I'm guilty of this, but it didn't happen too often in this book:) It's good to hear that at least it's a nice change of pace for you!

So last night when I was making dinner, and preparing our "bitter greens" I thought about this book, lol.

I picked this one up from the library today! Better late than never, I guess.

Well, I was looking forward to discussing this one, but I don't think I'll be finishing it. Too sensual for my tastes. I really liked the premise, though. I don't think I've ever read a Rapunzel retelling.

Ally wrote: "Well, I was looking forward to discussing this one, but I don't think I'll be finishing it. Too sensual for my tastes. I really liked the premise, though. I don't think I've ever read a Rapunzel re..."

Ally, I get it. It's a lot more racy in places than I thought it would be. Thanks for giving it a go.

I haven't gotten to any really racy parts yet. But I'll admit I'm still not to the actual retelling of Rapunzel. Goodness this is taking me a while to get reading. I wish I could say I would have time over the holiday to read but I have to be back at work the 26th. Perhaps the weekend after!

Shanna wrote: "I haven't gotten to any really racy parts yet. But I'll admit I'm still not to the actual retelling of Rapunzel. Goodness this is taking me a while to get reading. I wish I could say I would have t..."

Shanna, it is ummm... the reading is work, not a real fast read.

Yes, Heidi, you are entirely correct in the statement that reading this book is work. It's interesting, but not fun interesting. Due to the lack of fun, for the most part, although as you promised I have came upon some much lighter episodes, it doesn't pull me back to read more on a daily basis. That, combined with the business of getting ready for Christmas, has me wondering if I will actually get it completed before the end of the month. I honestly didn't read a single page this weekend! I kept telling myself I needed to read some, and would find something else to do instead. That's not good.

Lisa wrote: "It's interesting, but not fun interesting."

I had to really push myself to finish reading, so I can't really say anything:) I understand how it's not drawing you back in, especially this time of year. It felt like an out-of-season read when I was plugging through it.

I had a lot of time to read yesterday evening as I was in the ER for roughly 6 hours. So I made a lot of headway! I find myself enjoying it a lot more than I thought I would. There are parts that are very hard to read such as the violent parts. There seems to be a general undertone to the book of an altogether lack of true love for each other. It seems that Margheritas parents and her were really the only true relationship that remained unspoiled until the kidnapping of her.

It is a very dark and despondent tale. I do still have about 1/3 of it to read still but I do find myself wanting to finish. The truth of the matter is that even though this story is based hundreds of years ago I can't help but see the similarities of life around us now. A young girl with no one to care for her in the big city could very easily, and often do, become exactly like Selena.

I have a deep appreciation for the writer. Her muse could not have been an easy one.

Shanna wrote: "I have a deep appreciation for the writer. Her muse could not have been an easy one. ..."

I have to agree. That is a great way to put it. I'm glad that you're enjoying it even though it is challenging in many respects. (view spoiler)[ "The lack of true love" was very present throughout the book. I was kind of amazed at Charlotte Rose's romantic experiences. They were so sad and tragic, and yet who among us has not had some horrible failed romance. She had three, I think? It was kind of stunning and gutsy, imho, that the author didn't sweeten that aspect of her life. Made the whole read more thoughtful. (hide spoiler)]

I also agree, that there is a timeless quality to Charlotte Rose's story. I guess it kind of gives you pause.

Well, here it is the beginning of a new month and I haven't finished Bitter Greens yet. Due to that fact, and the knowledge of how much I am looking forward to reading some early renditions of Beauty and the Beast and The Fire Rose, I am deciding to not finish the last third of Bitter Greens. I apologize, but I honestly just want to read something I enjoy right now. I have tried my best to push through it, and much of it was interesting. I really like that it's a story, within a story, within yet another story. However, none of the characters, other than the nun telling the Rapunzel tale have hardly any redeeming features at all. The title is very apt, as all of these women are extremely bitter about their life situations. Each woman seems to only be able to resort to trickery, sorcery, or violence to improve their situation. Shanna says she has a deep appreciation for the author. I actually feel sorry for her, for if this book is any indication of her outlook on life, it is very sorrowful indeed.

Lisa wrote: "The title is very apt, as all of these women are extremely bitter about their life situations." That is a fascinating insight:)

I totally get where you're coming from as far as not finishing. I had to really push to finish, and I'm one who can appreciate melancholy. However, I find if it's not tempered with some joy it feels inauthentic. I wished for more light in the dark spaces of the novel. Without hearing directly from the author, it's hard to know exactly what drove her choices, but I did think there was room for more light in the execution and was disappointed in that regard.

As I mentioned earlier, I have The Wild Girl on my night table. I'm going to read it. Maybe I'll come back and comment on whether it's as "sorrowful" (great word choice) as Bitter Greens!

Thanks for understanding.

I finally finished reading this last night! I have to say yes I did do some skimming as I really just wanted to finish it and didn't want to stay up until 2 am to do so. ;) I enjoyed how it ended. I must say that even though it was a long hard read at times I think it was worth it. Yes the main character seems a bit bitter and malcontent. Honestly, with all that happened to her I don't know how she couldn't be. I think her being secluded to the convent was the best thing that could have happened to her. She was a spunky person who was before her time. Women had no rights and she wanted that to change. I admire her pluck and tenacity, she fought for love. The rescue of Charles is by far my favorite part of the book. I mean, who can't feel admiration for a woman who would dress as a dancing bear to save her true love?

The tie ins with Margherita (Rapunzel) were wonderful. I truly loved the story. I honestly don't think I've ever read the tale of Rapunzel I just knew the general concept and watched a few kids movies. I love that true love was found and mercy was shown to the "evil" witch.

I also enjoyed all the layers of the witch. It's easy to judge someone when you have never been in their shoes. The reveal of the nun telling the story really being the witch was fantastic. It just goes to show that everybody can be redeemed.

Lastly, I find it fascinating that in the acknowledgments and afterword we learn a bit more about "Bon-Bon" It's nice to know that she lived to be a very nice old age for that time and she didn't remain in the convent. I was also impressed with the amount of research and effort went into ensuring that even with some liberties the story of Catherine-Rose is a true story. That I'm sure most of what was written in her tale was true. To go through all the persecution, despair, physical violence, and just all together hard time she did I don't actually find her bitter at all. She did the best she could with situations that arose from mistakes made as a young girl. Constantly being judged for not wanting to conform to the social ideals of the times she found her own niche and suffered the consequences. She was able to find hope and joy though in her writings and storytellings.

While I don't know if I would want to tackle another book of this length and complexity anytime soon, I truly am glad I finished it.

Shanna wrote: "I finally finished reading this last night! I have to say yes I did do some skimming as I really just wanted to finish it and didn't want to stay up until 2 am to do so. ;) I enjoyed how it ended. ..."

Shanna, wow, thanks for taking the time to contribute such a wonderful write-up to the discussion. I'm glad you're glad you finished it! (I confess, I did some skimming too!) Even with the struggles I had getting through it, I thought it was a worthy read as well. It made me think a lot about the experience of women writers. In that regard, especially, things are so different now. Although you can still find discussions as to whether females are accurately/proportionately represented among fantasy/sci-fi authors and especially stuff in the gaming community which can be closely linked to fantasy/sci-fi publishing and tv/film production, there's a lot more room for women to breathe. Except of course if you live in a country where women aren't allowed to drive OR you're trapped in an abusive domestic situation that curtails your mental and physical freedom. SIGH! So... as much as women are "free-er" we're also still in the midst of world that can challenge our hopes and dreams and rights to express/experience them. Plus all the appalling global sex-slavery market that exists today... still parallel some of the more graphic scenes in Bitter Greens, I'm sure. Anyway, the end of Bitter Greens didn't make me giddy, but it was satisfying. Charlotte Rose had to fight really hard to arrive at her place in the world. But I liked the truth in that.

The first scene in the convent garden probably remained my favorite from the entire book. The one lack for me because I totally agree:The reveal of the nun telling the story really being the witch was fantastic. (view spoiler)[I would have loved at least one scene bridging La Strega's transformation! It was such a critical element to the soul of the story! (hide spoiler)]

You make a great point that I hadn't thought of: Ending up in the convent was probably the best thing that happened to Charlotte Rose! It changed the course of her life, for sure, and in the long run, for the better.

Totally agree on all this! Lastly, I find it fascinating that in the acknowledgments and afterword we learn a bit more about "Bon-Bon" It's nice to know that she lived to be a very nice old age for that time and she didn't remain in the convent. I was also impressed with the amount of research and effort went into ensuring that even with some liberties the story of Catherine-Rose is a true story. That I'm sure most of what was written in her tale was true. To go through all the persecution, despair, physical violence, and just all together hard time she did I don't actually find her bitter at all. She did the best she could with situations that arose from mistakes made as a young girl. Constantly being judged for not wanting to conform to the social ideals of the times she found her own niche and suffered the consequences. She was able to find hope and joy though in her writings and storytellings.

So The Wild Girl also by Kate Forysyh is about the girl who helped the Grimm brother's collect their fairy tales. I am going to read it, but yeah... in a bit, lol!

Thanks so much, Shanna!!!!!

I do find it interesting that Kate Forsyth seems to write books about female authors.