Catholic Thought discussion

Book IV
Subchapters:
- The Basis of Rome’s Expansion
- The Evaluation of Empire
- The Revolt of the Gladiators
- The Gods and the Rise and Fall of the Assyrian Rule
- Which of the Gods Aided the Expansion of Rome
- The Greater Gods: Jupiter and the Expansion of the Universe
- Jupiter as the One God in All
- Why Not Worship the One God Alone
- God as the Soul of the World, the World as the Body of God
- Victory, Just War, and Foreign Inequity
- The Goddesses Felicity and Fortuna
- Virtue and the Virtues: not Goddesses but the Gifts of God
- Virtue and Felicity
- Varro on the Functions of the Gods
- Rome’s Late Recognition of Felicity
- The Naming of Gods for Their Gifts and the God Who Gives Happiness
- The Gods and the Theatrical Shows
- Three Views of the Gods
- Rome’s Gods Incapable of Extending or Preserving Rome’s Empire
- The Omen of Mars, Terminus, and Juventas
- Cicero and Varro on Superstition, Images of the Gods, and the Religion of the Populace
- The One True God is the God Who Gives Earthly Kingdoms

I would summarized Book IV as the following: the success and happiness of the Roman people had nothing to do with the pagan gods, who at best did not exist and at worst were demons in disguise. The success of the Roman people had to do with the one true God who exists and is the source of all goodness.

Thanks so much, Manny. Excellent, as always.

OK, I haven't seen much conversation on this. How are people doing? Are you behind? Should we take an extra week week to allow for some catch up? Speak to me people.

I realize that I do have to fill in some more on the collapse of the Roman Republic and the transition to empire. And then of course I need to give a summary of the empire to Agustine's day.

A reader in this group who took a year to read this work comments:

“For large sections it was difficult to understand why he spent so much time on the points, but presumably they were significant issues in the day. At other time his brilliance carries through the centuries resonating to 21st century readers.”

The “difficult” parts for me in the early chapters through Book IV made me wonder why St. Augustine spent so much time on arguing about the strange, now completely forgotten, Roman gods, even astrology. They may have been important in his time though he already a bishop of the Church it’s surprising if this material was that important for his audience.

I am reading this a second time and it was a relief to see him change the focus from Roman gods to Greek philosophers in Chapter VIII (but that’s getting ahead of schedule here.)

Sorry to say I'm behind on all my reading thanks to the accident and fallout which has taken up much of our time. Still awaiting MRI results on my knee injuries. Also had a double funeral to attend and taking a trip to my mom's hometown to buy a headstone for my aunt. It's been a month for unwanted reminders that none of us last forever. Have readings to keep up with in two study groups in our parish, and this month I'm discussion leader in one of them, so I'm just into Book III but will try to catch up. This was my nomination, after all ! I'm sorry!
Manny, your commentaries are very, very helpful!

Galicius wrote: "A reader in this group who took a year to read this work comments:

“For large sections it was difficult to understand why he spent so much time on the points, but presumably they were significant ..."

Yes it does seem a little off topic that he's spending the time as he does on the Roman gods and even Roman history. But it does feel like it will come together to some thesis. Overall, I'm finding it a lot easier read than I expected. Though I don't see the cohesion of his thought yet, I am understanding what he is saying and alluding to.

Madeleine wrote: "Sorry to say I'm behind on all my reading thanks to the accident and fallout which has taken up much of our time. Still awaiting MRI results on my knee injuries. Also had a double funeral to attend..."

Oh Madeleine I'm sorry to hear. I'm sorry for your losses. May they rest in peace. And I hope you get better.

Kerstin also told me she's behind. How about we allow one week for catch up? I won't post Book V come Sunday. I'll post it next Sunday. This will give me more time to continue on the Roman history.

Thank you, Manny! It is rather slow reading compared to other things we've done, but I do want to read it all! And we'll be OK.

I am behind also. I find it hard but am very thankful for your comments because it help in understanding. I too voted for the book so I am committed to try to finish. I am only beginning book 3.

Madeleine sorry for your lose. Hope you are feeling better soon.
I know I don't contribute much but I do appreciate reading the comments because they help me understand better what I am reading. As I said before I am a slow reader so I often fall behind but belonging to the group makes me stick to it. Thanks.

Thank you all! We shall persevere!

I am caught up, but have nothing worthwhile to post. I finished Book V yesterday. I think I understand the argument Augustine is making. It feels as if he is belaboring the point, however. I think one or two or 10 or 12 examples for each point would be sufficient.

Thanks Christine and Irene. I'm glad you're reading along too. And happy to hear my Roman history summation has been helpful.

So here's a quick upcoming schedule.
Next week will be catch up week.
Week of Feb 16th will be chapter V of City of God, and that will conclude the first cycle of our returning read. We will pause there until our cycle returns to Long Term Read.

After that we have a choice. The next read in our cycle is our inexpensive book read, and it was already picked last year when we had three books in a vote for inexpensive read nearly tie, and so we decided to do all three. The last one of the three is Frances de Sales' Introduction to the Devout Life. I'm actually looking forward to that. I think it will be a perfect read for Lent.

The question for the book club is do we want to have a short read in between Book V of City of God and Introduction to the Devout Life? Kerstin had indicated she did want a short read. These short reads are quite informative and pleasurable. If so then what do we pick for a short read?

Here's my thought, and it's only a thought. I haven't discussed this with Kerstin yet. We have now read all three of the Gospels as we have started Liturgical Years A, B, and C. We will never have the Gospel of John as a Liturgical Year read. The Gospel of John is usually set aside for Lent. Would the book club want to go through the Gospel of John leading into Lent before we get to Francis de Sales?

So two questions. Do you want a short read in between, and if so, would you want John's Gospel or something else?

Irene wrote: "I am caught up, but have nothing worthwhile to post. I finished Book V yesterday. I think I understand the argument Augustine is making. It feels as if he is belaboring the point, however. I think ..."

By the way Irene, I agree. He does seem to be belaboring the point. But he is stepping his way through Roman history, and I think it's significant to his point. It occurs to me that Roman history might have been all the known history that people of his day knew. So he may be attempting to capture the full scope of human history. Chapter V will end the Roman history section. So it will come to an end. Next up will be Grecco-Roman philosophy.

I finished book 5 this morning. John's gospel and Frances de Sales are excellent choices.

My vote is to go right into De Sales.

Manny said:
By the way Irene, I agree. He does seem to be belaboring the point. But he is stepping his way through Roman history, and I think it's significant to his point. It occurs to me that Roman history might have been all the known history that people of his day knew. So he may be attempting to capture the full scope of human history. Chapter V will end the Roman history section. So it will come to an end. Next up will be Grecco-Roman philosophy.

I agree that Augustine's detailed analysis of Roman history and of the religious stories and practices is intentional. Had I been looking for a history of ancient Rome, I would appreciate his detail more. I also expect that literary styles have changed. Modern literature tends to be more concise. I am approaching this as a product of my culture. For me, less is more. But, I can no more be something that I am not than Augustine can be a 21st century. So, I slog on. I probably won't enjoy this book. Many of its arguments won't feel particularly relevant. But, I will finish it and allow more brilliant minds than mine to continue to call it a classic.

Irene wrote: "Manny said:
By the way Irene, I agree. He does seem to be belaboring the point. But he is stepping his way through Roman history, and I think it's significant to his point. It occurs to me that Rom..."

Irene, hang tight. Books XI through XXII focus on Judaism and Christianity, so there will be theology coming up. A modern writer would probably have integrated the background with the main gist of his thought. Or a modern writer would have given a summary background and let the reader look up all the details of the background on his own. I don't know the conventions of St. Augustine's day or what was going through his mind. Perhaps the background is overkill; perhaps not. I can't say without completing it. But it's not that unusual. Plenty of scholarly works today have extensive background detail prior to getting to their main argument. That's one of the reasons scholarly works tend to be boring.

But let me say, I'm not bored by City of God so far. Maybe it's because I'm a Roman history buff or perhaps because I enjoy Augustine's tone and writing voice.

Maybe that is my problem. I have not been reading any of this as background but as bricks in his argument. Each book takes a different aspect of Roman beliefs and I am reading each chapter as another line in his case against their condemnation of Christianity and favoring of their traditional value system. I am reading this as a meticulous construction of that argument, insuring that no possible chink might be exposed in his argument. For me, that is just too detailed. Show me a few examples of the lack of virtue in the stories of the gods, and I got it, I don't need 2 dozen examples. Show me a few examples of the hypocracy in Roman leaders and I got it, I don't need 2 dozen examples and so on.

Irene wrote: "Maybe that is my problem. I have not been reading any of this as background but as bricks in his argument. Each book takes a different aspect of Roman beliefs and I am reading each chapter as anoth..."

Absolutely. Well said. I don't need to know about the Roman goddess of door hinges.

Irene, I would say they are bricks in the argument too. At least they seem it. He's doing double duty but like you say, the wall that comes from the bricks could be a lot shorter. I'm curious as to how this leads to the argument that Christianity is superior. It would seem that the same arguments he makes against the Roman gods could be made about against the one Judaeo-Christian God.

I was thinking that as I was reading about the fickle nature of the Roman gods who asked the inconscienable of subjects or allowed brutality in their name. How often have I heard people reject the God of the Bible because of accounts like the request that Abraham sacrifice Isaac, or the command to put entire communities under the ban.

Coming late to the party, but I did find some comic relief in Augustine's commentary on the proliferation of Roman deities--on for every "movement of the mind." And was left wondering about the names he listed--some apparently we're real deities in the Roman canon, but others--was he being satirical here, or were they all real gods of his day? Maybe both? St. Augustine certainly has a sense of humor in any case.